baseball Hall of Fame

[KaiserUEO]

Good to hear from Bernie. Great postseason #s no doubt, but not quite on the level of the Large Father's. BW had 22 HRs and 80 RBIs in 545 PAs. Ortiz had 17/60 in just 352 PAs. Ortiz' OPS in the postseason was more than 100 points higher.

At the end of day, post season should almost be dismissed or used as very late in decision process.

I'm not saying that because the voters ignored Bernie and the fact that he hit cleanup, put up those #s and played Center on 4 WS Champions either...while papi was on the barca watching Lost, the Celebrity Apprentice or something inbetween his at bats during his post seasons.

Would no post season lessen the careers of trout or Harper if they end up never making it? Is Ted Williams less a HOFer because he played in 1, lost and hit like shlit?

i don't think so, so why pump those on good teams?

Although in my Pettitte argument, I'd love to add them. Those innings on his arm certainly can't be ignored.

I think everyone in that era used in some capacity. Be it roids, HGH, creatine, andro or something. So put them all in, don't ignore the era, just explain why their #s are so crooked compared to everyone else's in every other decade.

Barry, Clemens and ARod are slam fluckin dunks, hell, so is manny.

Put em in.

 

[bpo57]

At the end of day, post season should almost be dismissed or used as very late in decision process.

I'm not saying that because the voters ignored Bernie and the fact that he hit cleanup, put up those #s and played Center on 4 WS Champions either...while papi was on the barca watching Lost, the Celebrity Apprentice or something inbetween his at bats.

Would no post season lessen the careers of trout or Harper if they end up never making it? Is Ted Williams less a HOFer because he played in 1, lost and hit like shlit?

i don't think so, so why pump those on good teams?

Although in my Pettitte argument, I'd love to add them. Those innings on his arm certainly can't be ignored.

I think everyone in that era used in some capacity. Be it roids, HGH, creatine, andro or something. So put them all in, don't ignore the era, just explain why their #s are so crooked compared to everyone else's in every other decade.

Barry, Clemens and ARod are slam fluckin dunks, hell, so is manny.

Put em in.

I tend to agree with you about the postseason. Probably should be looked at as icing on the cake. But in Papi's case that icing is rich and tasty. When you put teams on your back and help carry them to championships that has to count a little extra. Not that his regular season #s are shabby by the way. His HR and RBI totals will end up well past several of the all time greats and if he were some regular stiff at 1B no one would care about his defense.

 

[Alsacs]

At the end of day, post season should almost be dismissed or used as very late in decision process.

I'm not saying that because the voters ignored Bernie and the fact that he hit cleanup, put up those #s and played Center on 4 WS Champions either...while papi was on the barca watching Lost, the Celebrity Apprentice or something inbetween his at bats.

Would no post season lessen the careers of trout or Harper if they end up never making it? Is Ted Williams less a HOFer because he played in 1, lost and hit like shlit?

i don't think so, so why pump those on good teams?

Although in my Pettitte argument, I'd love to add them. Those innings on his arm certainly can't be ignored.

I think everyone in that era used in some capacity. Be it roids, HGH, creatine, andro or something. So put them all in, don't ignore the era, just explain why their #s are so crooked compared to everyone else's in every other decade.

Barry, Clemens and ARod are slam fluckin dunks, hell, so is manny.

Put em in.

If PEDs allegations aren't going to kill Ortiz he is a lock. The guy hit his 500th career HR this past year. That number should get him in. Ortiz has the most hits, doubles, homeruns in the history of the DH position while his postseason numbers are absurd.

Ortiz career average in the WS .455 that is absurd. It is the highest career BA for any player in multiple WS.

 

[Alsacs]

Manny is not getting in. He should but the 3 failed drug tests on the record are going to kill him. Manny is greatest right handed hitter of alltime or atleast in the discussion with Pujols, and DiMaggio.

Manny was a dink to the media they aren't going to vote him in. He will be like Sosa I will be shocked if Manny gets above 20% next year.

 

[Knicks411]

At the end of day, post season should almost be dismissed or used as very late in decision process.

I'm not saying that because the voters ignored Bernie and the fact that he hit cleanup, put up those #s and played Center on 4 WS Champions either...while papi was on the barca watching Lost, the Celebrity Apprentice or something inbetween his at bats during his post seasons.

Would no post season lessen the careers of trout or Harper if they end up never making it? Is Ted Williams less a HOFer because he played in 1, lost and hit like shlit?

i don't think so, so why pump those on good teams?

Although in my Pettitte argument, I'd love to add them. Those innings on his arm certainly can't be ignored..

Lot of truth to this in general. He may have been done anyway, but I wouldn't be surprised if the bloody sock game in 2004 impacted Schilling over the next couple of years

 

[Cusefan0307]

I think Manny will get more than 20 percent. He's less of a dink and liar than Arod, and I'm a yankee fan.

 

[Alsacs]

Lot of truth to this in general. He may have been done anyway, but I wouldn't be surprised if the bloody sock game in 2004 impacted Schilling over the next couple of years

Schilling got over 50% this year. He will get in and needs to get in before Mussina to get in behind him. Schilling was dominant enough in the regular season his teammate Randy Johnson took atleast 1 Cy Young from him. His postseason is probably the best right now for any SP and his 3 WS titles should put him in.

Mussina was a better regular season pitcher but doesn't have the postseason record.

I think Schilling needs to get into the 60's next year and keep his upward trajectory.

Next year will have 2-4 depending on Vlad who is the only first ballot guy who will come close.

Raines is the 3rd greatest leadoff guy of alltime behind Henderson and Ichiro. Next year is his last ballot he will get in.
Bagwell should get in.
I don't get why Hoffman didn't get in this year 3rd greatest closer of alltime behind Rivera and Eckersley.

 

[Alsacs]

I think Manny will get more than 20 percent. He's less of a dink and liar than Arod, and I'm a yankee fan.

Boston media which is the worst pack of jackels in the nation are going to kill Manny's chance of getting a high number.

That media led by the worst version of Bud Polluqin in the nation in Dan Shaughnessy for some stupid reason have a lot of power within the BBWAA. I can't stand the BBWAA.

A-Rod has a better chance than Manny because A-Rod never failed a drug test. Manny got suspended 2 times for failing tests. A-Rod isn't likely getting in either because of his season long suspension but atleast he has attempted to repair his image. Manny retired after his 2nd drug test failing. I love Manny Ramirez the player but the stupid writers determine his fate and they won't cut him slack.
Edgar Martinez and Jeff Kent will be above Manny IMO. He will be around Sammy Sosa's 12-15% next year I believe.

I will be interested how much PEDs taint Pudge Rodriguez. I think it is fair to say he probably used them while in Texas with Juan Gonzalez and Rafael Palmerio so he won't get that high I think.

 

[bpo57]

Schilling got over 50% this year. He will get in and needs to get in before Mussina to get in behind him. Schilling was dominant enough in the regular season his teammate Randy Johnson took atleast 1 Cy Young from him. His postseason is probably the best right now for any SP and his 3 WS titles should put him in.

Mussina was a better regular season pitcher but doesn't have the postseason record.

I think Schilling needs to get into the 60's next year and keep his upward trajectory.

Next year will have 2-4 depending on Vlad who is the only first ballot guy who will come close.

Raines is the 3rd greatest leadoff guy of alltime behind Henderson and Ichiro. Next year is his last ballot he will get in.
Bagwell should get in.
I don't get why Hoffman didn't get in this year 3rd greatest closer of alltime behind Rivera and Eckersley.

Pete Rose was not a shabby lead-off hitter. Ten seasons of 200+ hits.

 

[dasher]

Boston media which is the worst pack of jackels in the nation are going to kill Manny's chance of getting a high number.

That media led by the worst version of Bud Polluqin in the nation in Dan Shaughnessy for some stupid reason have a lot of power within the BBWAA. I can't stand the BBWAA.

A-Rod has a better chance than Manny because A-Rod never failed a drug test. Manny got suspended 2 times for failing tests. A-Rod isn't likely getting in either because of his season long suspension but atleast he has attempted to repair his image. Manny retired after his 2nd drug test failing. I love Manny Ramirez the player but the stupid writers determine his fate and they won't cut him slack.
Edgar Martinez and Jeff Kent will be above Manny IMO. He will be around Sammy Sosa's 12-15% next year I believe.

I will be interested how much PEDs taint Pudge Rodriguez. I think it is fair to say he probably used them while in Texas with Juan Gonzalez and Rafael Palmerio so he won't get that high I think.

You love Manny? the way he shot himself out of Boston was a disgrace Alsacs. He loafed on a grounder when his team was being no hit. He punched an old man. I hope he never gets in. him. Not to mention a two time loser in the roids scandals.

 

[KaiserUEO]

Pete Rose was not a shabby lead-off hitter. Ten seasons of 200+ hits.

And Gossage was better than Eck.

So was Hoyt Wilhelm.

 

[dasher]

And Gossage was better than Eck.

So was Hoyt Wilhelm.

And dick radatz was better than any of them. Different time. He would pitch in 7 straight games. He tossed 9 shut our relief innings in a game against the yankees.

 

[Alsacs]

You love Manny? the way he shot himself out of Boston was a disgrace Alsacs. He loafed on a grounder when his team was being no hit. He punched an old man. I hope he never gets in. him. Not to mention a two time loser in the roids scandals.

He costed the 2008 Sox a chance to repeat by forcing his way out. That team lost game 7 in the ALCS.
I hated all the drama around Manny and he was dink but the guy helped the Sox win 2 WS. That is why he isn't hated. He was such a great hitter. I agree the 2 time roids suspensions kill him.

The incident with Sox traveling secretary was a joke and Manny was lucky the domestic violence incident with his wife never hurt him either.

 

[Alsacs]

And Gossage was better than Eck.

So was Hoyt Wilhelm.

Eck was better than Gossage. IMO. I get your a Yankee fan but late 80's Eck won an MVP and CY Young.
Outside of the Gibson HR which wasn't a save opportunity the guy was shut down. Rivera was the only scarier closer IMO.
As a Sox fan though we got to Rivera more than anybody just because of all the times they saw his cutter.

 

[bpo57]

Eck was better than Gossage. IMO. I get your a Yankee fan but late 80's Eck won an MVP and CY Young.
Outside of the Gibson HR which wasn't a save opportunity the guy was shut down. Rivera was the only scarier closer IMO.
As a Sox fan though we got to Rivera more than anybody just because of all the times they saw his cutter.

I'm a Sox fan but it's hard to say Eck was better than Gossage. Eck was somewhat unique in that he was an accomplished SP and then morphed into a great reliever. His control was impeccable. But Gossage was very intimidating and he'd come in in the 7th inning and get a nine out save. With NY he was just about as tough as Rivera. Threw extremely hard. They both had something in common as each gave up huge World Series HRs to Kirk Gibson.

One brief Gossage story. Back in 2004 when my oldest son was 10 he competed in a Pepsi Pitch Hit and Run contest that ultimately led to Yankee Stadium where he won the 10 year old level for the tri-state area. He was called on to the field by Bob Sheppard in the pre-game and afterward received an autographed baseball from Goose Gossage. He didn't know who he was so I explained that he should hold on to that ball because Goose would one day be in the HOF. Several months later I go to play catch with my other son and grab a ball out of a bucket - all scuffed up with Goose Gossage's autograph not even legible.

 

[Alsacs]

I'm a Sox fan but it's hard to say Eck was better than Gossage. Eck was somewhat unique in that he was an accomplished SP and then morphed into a great reliever. His control was impeccable. But Gossage was very intimidating and he'd come in in the 7th inning and get a nine out save. With NY he was just about as tough as Rivera. Threw extremely hard. They both had something in common as each gave up huge World Series HRs to Kirk Gibson.

One brief Gossage story. Back in 2004 when my oldest son was 10 he competed in a Pepsi Pitch Hit and Run contest that ultimately led to Yankee Stadium where he won the 10 year old level for the tri-state area. He was called on to the field by Bob Sheppard in the pre-game and afterward received an autographed baseball from Goose Gossage. He didn't know who he was so I explained that he should hold on to that ball because Goose would one day be in the HOF. Several months later I go to play catch with my other son and grab a ball out of a bucket - all scuffed up with Goose Gossage's autograph not even legible.

It is subjective I get. I got no problem with the opinion Gossage is great and may be better. I just think Eck in Oakland was the Godfather of this current closer role. Gossage definitely had longer save back in the 70's/80's. I just think Eck was slightly better but its cool if I am wrong as I don't care that much.

Hoffman should have gotten in this year as he was a dominant closer. I don't like when writers try to make statements with first ballot HOFers and just HOFers. Hoffman is a HOFer so freaking vote him in he got 67% this year he will get over 75% next year.

 

[Delmar]

I don't understand Hoffman getting in. He never had an important save. He was never overwhelming. When he was in the spotlight, he performed poorly.

The steroid crowd has to be admitted some day. Maybe on the same day they let Bud Selig in. That would be appropriate.

 

[KaiserUEO]

Eck is a HOFer, but like others above have said...the 6+ out save was so hard, larussa created the 3 out and eventually 1 out save.

in both their primes, doing both their roles...id rather have Goose.

And dick radatz was better than any of them. Different time. He would pitch in 7 straight games. He tossed 9 shut our relief innings in a game against the yankees.

just looked up his stats, yeah his 1st 4 years (basically only) were pretty impressive.

guess he blew his arm out.

dellin betances-esque to start.

 

[KaiserUEO]

and while im at it...

THURMAN MUNSON aka THE CAPTAIN

ROOKIE OF THE YEAR
AL MVP
7X ALL STAR
3X GOLD GLOVE
2X WORLD SERIES CHAMPION

11 years .292 113 701

look, i get it if the ridiculous bbwa didnt want to put him in, but the veterans better right this wrong.

 

[Briancuse]

I don't understand why Piazza is linked with the steroids guys, there was never any evidence connecting him to peds, he should have been in on the first ballot.

 

[Briancuse]

Bernie Williams says hello.

Very good player, but he is not quite a hof.

 

[Fireball Jr.]

and while im at it...

THURMAN MUNSON aka THE CAPTAIN

ROOKIE OF THE YEAR
AL MVP
7X ALL STAR
3X GOLD GLOVE
2X WORLD SERIES CHAMPION

11 years .292 113 701

look, i get it if the ridiculous bbwa didnt want to put him in, but the veterans better right this wrong.

Testify, my man!

And, despite what Mr. October thinks, No. 15 was the straw that stirred that drink.

 

[Bayside44]

At the end of day, post season should almost be dismissed or used as very late in decision process.

I'm not saying that because the voters ignored Bernie and the fact that he hit cleanup, put up those #s and played Center on 4 WS Champions either...while papi was on the barca watching Lost, the Celebrity Apprentice or something inbetween his at bats during his post seasons.

Would no post season lessen the careers of trout or Harper if they end up never making it? Is Ted Williams less a HOFer because he played in 1, lost and hit like shlit?

i don't think so, so why pump those on good teams?

Although in my Pettitte argument, I'd love to add them. Those innings on his arm certainly can't be ignored.

I think everyone in that era used in some capacity. Be it roids, HGH, creatine, andro or something. So put them all in, don't ignore the era, just explain why their #s are so crooked compared to everyone else's in every other decade.

Barry, Clemens and ARod are slam fluckin dunks, hell, so is manny.

Put em in.

Clemens is the ultimate PED guy - leaves Boston with 192 wins after 13 years - then his ERA (after his last 2 season basically has him a 500 guy) wins, etc explode. Plus he tried to kill Mike Piazza in his drug addled inferiority.

If 192 wins and a 3 ERA gets you there, what happened afterward needs to be weighed against it.

 

[Alsacs]

PEDs prolonged Clemens dominance. If he continued on his trajectory post 1996 with Boston he likely puts up numbers for a few more years and they would have been good enough for the HOF. However PEDs prolonged his career till 2007 and he has among the greatest numbers of any RHP of alltime.

Bonds saw what PEDs did to McGuire and Sosa in 1998 and got jealous. They made him a HOFer the greatest HR of alltime.

Bonds and Clemens likely would have been HOFers without PEDs but they aren't getting in until maybe their final year or the veterans committee.

I get Yankee fans want Munson and Mattingly in the HOF but neither guy is getting in. If Munson didn't pass away he likely would have gotten in while Donnie just doesn't have the longevity.

Piazza admitted he used Andro and the backacny he had on his body were signs of Steroid usage. I still considered him a HOFer but he definitely had smoke around him. I never heard PEDs alleged with Jeff Bagwell. He will get in next year.


I wonder if the writers will make Vlad Guerrero a 1st ballot guy. I hate how they think being first ballot is only for special guys. If you are a HOFer your a HOFer. It would be cool if both Montreal Expos guys Raines and Vlad go in the same year.

 

[Knicks411]

Eck was better than Gossage. IMO. I get your a Yankee fan but late 80's Eck won an MVP and CY Young.
Outside of the Gibson HR which wasn't a save opportunity the guy was shut down. Rivera was the only scarier closer IMO.
As a Sox fan though we got to Rivera more than anybody just because of all the times they saw his cutter.

Not that it really matters, but he also blew a save in the 92 LCS, game tying HR to Alomar in the 9th.

Also the Gibson HR was definitely a blown save. Entered the game with a 4-3 lead, Gibson 2 run walkoff HR.

There's an argument Clemens was a tad unlucky his last few years in Boston; he did lead the league in K's his final year in Boston. Not saying the PED's didn't help, but he was clearly going to be a HOF if he had any kind of reasonable career after the Boston years. Pedro (rightfully) sailed in with 219 wins and 3 Cy Youngs. Clemens was at 192 wins and 3 Cy youngs when he left Boston.