Buffalo Thoughts

[General20]

It isn’t naivety and I don’t think they were dirty. I appreciate General’s writeups but that doesn’t mean they are Gospel and can’t be challenged. I just rewatched the whole 2H and am including a few plays. Incidentally, there were barely ANY plays where their hands were all over our guards. I didn’t see any undercutting as well. The Moyer play perceived as an undercut is also explained below. I didn’t see Oshae or Marek undercut. I saw Chukwu once get a rebound come down and have his feet set on the floor. He then got immediately bumped from behind whch knocked him down and he lost the ball. I think it was called for a foul.

12:41- Moyer comes from the weak side to try to block Perkins. He gets called for goaltending. He climbed his back and his crotch/leg lands on Perkins’ shoulder-neck area when he lands on Perkins from his momentum flying in. Perkins had no idea he was going to land on him, IMO. He takes exception a bit and shoves him off. Big deal. Matt is on the floor and Graves helps him up. At no point did Perkins slide in or slide out of the way. He was just standing there. Real dirty, lol.

6:42- Frank is dangling the ball out there and Clark tried to steal it. Doesn’t make any hand/arm contact as he whiffed on the steal. He got Frank a little bit (very little IMO) with the body a split second before Frank extends the arm and pushes off. Fine. Foul on UB. Was 50/50 to me.

5:05- Oshae has a nice take to rim for the And-1. Defender comes in trying to strip him, get called for the reach, then a split second later Perkins hammers him clean. That happened immediately after the whistle and I don’t think Perkins was trying anything dirty. He was just doing his job wanting OB to try to earn it at the line, IMO.

2:13- Battle has the ball. Jordan is fighting over the screen. At NO POINT does he touch Battle with his hands. He is moving his feet, bumps him slightly, then Battle pushes off. Jordan fouls out. I think we got a gift there. 50/50. Fine.

1:11- Battle just blatantly pushes off. Defender doesn’t touch him just doesn’t give him any space. Good defense, obviously.

0:48- Graves gets his hands/arms in on Frank and fouled him clearly. Nothing dirty of course. Just a bad foul on Graves’s part.

I’d love for someone to actually come up with tangible proof that UB played dirty or thuggish. I also don’t think they had any special agenda towards SU. All those guys who played the major minutes aren’t even from NY state.

You are dead wrong on this, and I've got some video evidence for you to clear up what I'm talking about.

Buffalo undercut our guys so many times that I figured the game highlights must include one example of it, so I googled the highlights and sure enough its in there.

Fast forward to the 2:45 mark. Chukwu goes up for a rebound and a Buffalo guy goes right underneath him, doesn't go for the ball at all, but instead gets in his landing space so he falls over. Everybody who has played even a little bit of basketball knows this is dirty and the best way to hurt a player. That Buffalo player knew exactly what he was doing, and what he was doing was trying to injure Chukwu.

This wasn't the most egregious example (probably not even top 5) but its pretty damning that they couldn't even put together 4 minutes of highlights from the game without showing a UB player undercut an SU player.

Buffalo did this at least 10 or 15 times in the second half, and never got called for it. Not sure how you watched the game so carefully without noticing.

Oh, and these highlights also include Brissett being kneed in the stomach.

 

[reedny]

we played them 2 years ago in the dome

It was before that. lol

 

[scottynguyen]

I agree that they were dirty.

There is a fine line between aggressive play and dirty play and I felt they crossed it several times.

When you play teams like Pitt or Cincinnati you don't worry about your players getting injured. I was concerned watching the 2nd half last night. I felt like injuries were inevitable.

 

[reedny]

Nicholson or something, young guy who became a star for them a few years later. Yeah, that was bad.

Anyway, they came up here more recently, two or three seasons ago. Brought a ton of fans for such a small school.

Yes there was a game in between there ... I should have remembered that since Rautins hasn't been around in a while. But I remember the play (Nicholson got ejected and everyone was like, "what?"). Bizarre.

 

[reedny]

I agree that they were dirty.

There is a fine line between aggressive play and dirty play and I felt they crossed it several times.

When you play teams like Pitt or Cincinnati you don't worry about your players getting injured. I was concerned watching the 2nd half last night. I felt like injuries were inevitable.

They undercut Chukwu, shoved Dolezaj, threw FH and OB to the floor, pretty much tackled TB and hacked on virtually every possession. It was a rough game, and I've seen waaaay too many plays like that this season: TB getting his legs taken out by Toledo, Yukon undercutting Moyer, Dolezaj getting thrown down at GT and hitting his head and Chukwu getting cut pretty much every game.

 

[tbonezone]

syracuse and buffalo don't exactly recruit in the same ponds. we should kick their butts. by 20.
hard to believe a team that scored 29 points at the line is crying about the officiating. grow a set.

 

[CuseLifer11]

You are dead wrong on this, and I've got some video evidence for you to clear up what I'm talking about.

Buffalo undercut our guys so many times that I figured the game highlights must include one example of it, so I googled the highlights and sure enough its in there.

Fast forward to the 2:45 mark. Chukwu goes up for a rebound and a Buffalo guy goes right underneath him, doesn't go for the ball at all, but instead gets in his landing space so he falls over. Everybody who has played even a little bit of basketball knows this is dirty and the best way to hurt a player. That Buffalo player knew exactly what he was doing, and what he was doing was trying to injure Chukwu.

This wasn't the most egregious example (probably not even top 5) but its pretty damning that they couldn't even put together 4 minutes of highlights from the game without showing a UB player undercut an SU player.

Buffalo did this at least 10 or 15 times in the second half, and never got called for it. Not sure how you watched the game so carefully without noticing.

Oh, and these highlights also include Brissett being kneed in the stomach.

Yeah there are dozens of examples. Pretty dirty team. We will not see them for a long while on the schedule.

Our 29 free throws should have been 49. They literally could not guard us. Just hacked nonstop

 

[pfister1]

Undercutting is reckless and dirty when a player's off his feet and most vulnerable. I feel like strangling those guys who do it, especially when they throw up their hands as though the resulting fall is a total surprise (see Yukon/Moyer; Toledo/TB). This is begging for a rule change, IMO. I'm pretty sure Tyus agrees.

But undercutting should be an automatic flagrant foul.

I agree about the undercutting being dirty, where it is done intentionally or repeatedly. However, we don't need it to be deemed a flagrant foul. I think its too hard to measure someone's intent, I would settle for referees simply calling the personal foul.

 

[SoBeCuse]

This is the last I’ll post on it. CuseLifer, you are beginning to insult my intelligence. Please stop with the exaggeration. 49 free throws? Give me a freaking break. Our ballhandling STRUGGLES with this kind of defense. Again, to you and others...I only saw one or two blatant hacks on Frank or Tyus. You guys conveniently ignore the clips I listed on the most controversial Howard plays where there wasn’t the clear Howard obviousl turnovers. Only the foul on Graves at the end had hands on him. Nobody grabbed these guys except for some extremely light body/leg contact before they pushed off. It’s just false to say they were hacking us all game. That’s a lie.

Well, I think you are dead wrong. I’m sorry General but 10-15 is an exaggeration, IMO. I respect your posts of course and detail but we will just not agree on this. Fine. I watched your clip and watched it at home earlier as I stated. I don’t see an undercut there. I see Chukwu getting pushed. Yes, should’ve been called a foul. I saw the Brissett play too. To me it seemed that Perkins (?) got contorted jumping and his knee flailed out inadvertently and hit Brissett. No different than the one or two times Chukwu clobbered somebody trying to block a shot with no whistle.

I just will not accept that these were dirty plays. Our guys are lanky, thin, light, and obvious shaky ballhandlers. Marek and Chukwu pinball around after slight contact. Just the pure number of predicaments Frank got himself into barely avoiding near catastrophes was staggering. That’s on him. Nobody his hacking him. Nobody hacked Tyus when he tried to dribble through his legs near center court sideline and bounced it either off himself or Marek.

Izzo, Frank Martin (exactly how he played us last year), Huggins, and all these great M2M/pressure coaches. You mean to tell me they aren’t going to get up in our grills and bang our guys around? Hell, Happ and Hayes banged our inside players around and pushed them occasionally in Madison. It happens. I’m impressed with our mental toughness in this one and well as the team’s fight. Plenty of people are scoring on UB in the halfcourt and the games weren’t free throw fests. Goodnight.

 

[Trueblue25]

Watched the game from the front row behind su’s bench.

I will continue to say this was not a dirty game. It was hard fought, physical, competitive basketball. Frank howard dapped up the mizzou transfer after a hard foul. These kids arent trying to hurt eachother to get an edge. This is how competitors play hard.

Multiple Acc teams and tournament teams will come at us the same way. Tyus Battle made no excuses about the physicality, lets not either.

 

[JoeySimz]

Everybody who has played even a little bit of basketball knows this is dirty and the best way to hurt a player.

Thank you.

This is the last I’ll post on it. CuseLifer, you are beginning to insult my intelligence. Please stop with the exaggeration. 49 free throws? Give me a freaking break. Our ballhandling STRUGGLES with this kind of defense. Again, to you and others...I only saw one or two blatant hacks on Frank or Tyus. You guys conveniently ignore the clips I listed on the most controversial Howard plays where there wasn’t the clear Howard obviousl turnovers. Only the foul on Graves at the end had hands on him. Nobody grabbed these guys except for some extremely light body/leg contact before they pushed off. It’s just false to say they were hacking us all game. That’s a lie.

Well, I think you are dead wrong. I’m sorry General but 10-15 is an exaggeration, IMO. I respect your posts of course and detail but we will just not agree on this. Fine. I watched your clip and watched it at home earlier as I stated. I don’t see an undercut there. I see Chukwu getting pushed. Yes, should’ve been called a foul. I saw the Brissett play too. To me it seemed that Perkins (?) got contorted jumping and his knee flailed out inadvertently and hit Brissett. No different than the one or two times Chukwu clobbered somebody trying to block a shot with no whistle.

I just will not accept that these were dirty plays. Our guys are lanky, thin, light, and obvious shaky ballhandlers. Marek and Chukwu pinball around after slight contact. Just the pure number of predicaments Frank got himself into barely avoiding near catastrophes was staggering. That’s on him. Nobody his hacking him. Nobody hacked Tyus when he tried to dribble through his legs near center court sideline and bounced it either off himself or Marek.

Izzo, Frank Martin (exactly how he played us last year), Huggins, and all these great M2M/pressure coaches. You mean to tell me they aren’t going to get up in our grills and bang our guys around? Hell, Happ and Hayes banged our inside players around and pushed them occasionally in Madison. It happens. I’m impressed with our mental toughness in this one and well as the team’s fight. Plenty of people are scoring on UB in the halfcourt and the games weren’t free throw fests. Goodnight.

The clips you picked out? No. I already saw the game. We got undercut with no foul several times. They charged, angled, and threw their shorter bodies into our players while we were jumping. It's dangerous, it's what lesser players do when they are out of position and can't jump with the opponent. It's not basketball. I have two busted elbows right now from the same type of junk. Granted, sometimes collisions happen but this was obviously part of the gameplan by UB.

It would be entertaining if not so sad, the lengths you go to defend our opponents. You often speak so highly of other teams and coaches while disparaging your so-called team. And please don't come back at me with your typical "orange-colored glasses" type remarks. We're all free to criticize our team. But just once, try to sound like your on the side of Syracuse, especially the Syracuse player who gets tackled. Believe me, no one will mistake you for a homer.

 

[SoBeCuse]

Thank you.

The clips you picked out? No. I already saw the game. We got undercut with no foul several times. They charged, angled, and threw their shorter bodies into our players while we were jumping. It's dangerous, it's what lesser players do when they are out of position and can't jump with the opponent. It's not basketball. I have two busted elbows right now from the same type of junk. Granted, sometimes collisions happen but this was obviously part of the gameplan by UB.

It would be entertaining if not so sad, the lengths you go to defend our opponents. You often speak so highly of other teams and coaches while disparaging your so-called team. And please don't come back at me with your typical "orange-colored glasses" type remarks. We're all free to criticize our team. But just once, try to sound like your on the side of Syracuse, especially the Syracuse player who gets tackled. Believe me, no one will mistake you for a homer.

Damnit you forced to be respond. Spare me your heroic ‘I’m a better fan than you’ garbage. I would encourage you to watch the game again. You can’t just ignore my examples and stick to your H0T Takes. I called this a good win many times in various threads. I’m proud of this team to date. I, just like Boeheim, thought this was a very good win. Unlike you, I think Buffalo is a good team. They played like a team as well as they clearly have more experience as we are still figuring out roles, have shaky offense, depth issues, etc. They didn’t just mug us and show no skill out there. They had the best post player on the floor and a collection of guards who probably outperformed ours, IMO. Oshae was a monster and saved the day. Oh, but go ahead and call me a bad fan, lol, if I speak the truth or close to it. BTW, did you whine and complain after the South Carolina game? Because they defended us no differently.

There are obviously posters who share my opinion that UB wasn’t dirty. Do me a favor and let’s ignore each other, K?

 

[NYCSUGrad]

Damnit you forced to be respond. Spare me your heroic ‘I’m a better fan than you’ garbage. I would encourage you to watch the game again. You can’t just ignore my examples and stick to your H0T Takes. I called this a good win many times in various threads. I’m proud of this team to date. I, just like Boeheim, thought this was a very good win. Unlike you, I think Buffalo is a good team. They played like a team as well as they clearly have more experience as we are still figuring out roles, have shaky offense, depth issues, etc. They didn’t just mug us and show no skill out there. They had the best post player on the floor and a collection of guards who probably outperformed ours, IMO. Oshae was a monster and saved the day. Oh, but go ahead and call me a bad fan, lol, if I speak the truth or close to it. BTW, did you whine and complain after the South Carolina game? Because they defended us no differently.

There are obviously posters who share my opinion that UB wasn’t dirty. Do me a favor and let’s ignore each other, K?

You speak the truth or close to it much like the Republicans do. Even when evidence is given to you.

 

[Orange Barrel]

Not sure how anyone thinks that was clean game. They thought we were soft and behaved like punks, which indicates they're not very bright. Oats whined about fouls and said they should have won, which is even dimmer (and I'm being kind here). He also thought Perkins was the best player on the court. Well, he did lead the game in shots rejected, so there's that.

 

[rrlbees]

Not sure how anyone thinks that was clean game. They thought we were soft and behaved like punks, which indicates they're not very bright. Oats whined about fouls and said they should have won, which is even dimmer (and I'm being kind here). He also thought Perkins was the best player on the court. Well, he did lead the game in shots rejected, so there's that.

Actually he said Perkins was the best big on the court, which he is right about. But overall, that coach sounded like a jerk.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

You are dead wrong on this, and I've got some video evidence for you to clear up what I'm talking about.

Buffalo undercut our guys so many times that I figured the game highlights must include one example of it, so I googled the highlights and sure enough its in there.

Fast forward to the 2:45 mark. Chukwu goes up for a rebound and a Buffalo guy goes right underneath him, doesn't go for the ball at all, but instead gets in his landing space so he falls over. Everybody who has played even a little bit of basketball knows this is dirty and the best way to hurt a player. That Buffalo player knew exactly what he was doing, and what he was doing was trying to injure Chukwu.

This wasn't the most egregious example (probably not even top 5) but its pretty damning that they couldn't even put together 4 minutes of highlights from the game without showing a UB player undercut an SU player.

Buffalo did this at least 10 or 15 times in the second half, and never got called for it. Not sure how you watched the game so carefully without noticing.

Oh, and these highlights also include Brissett being kneed in the stomach.

I'm sorry, but I just watched that 4 times on my 22" monitor, and I'm not seeing it. He's a small guy and he boxed out Brissett and just moved in the direction of the ball and ended up there. That absolutely does not look like he's intentionally sliding under Chukwu to me. Maybe a different angle shows what you are going for there, but that one does not.

Was that the same guy that faked Chukwu into the air and the big guy ended up bringing his leg down on?

I didn't see the game, and maybe UB was dirty, but I didn't see anything in those highlights that would show evidence of that.

 

[SoBristol]

That coach may have been a jerk in what he said. His team doubled Battle to deny him the ball and then to keep him from driving whenever he had it, guarded Howard tightly to force mistakes, and played tough on Brissett to prevent him from driving to the hoop (and got called for a bunch of fouls in the process). They were stronger inside -- simple fact.

Does not make it a dirty game. Opinions on that will vary, but if you have followed SU basketball over the years, you have seen a lot of tough, physical games against Big Ten teams & Big East teams. I was at the game & watched a replay yesterday. We are going to see more games like that, where our inside guys have to struggle against physical play, and our main scorers get pressed hard by defenders.

 

[Rage4CUSE]

we played them 2 years ago in the dome

I was about to say the same thing, I was at the actual last game against St. Bonnie 2 years ago, I hated their fan section when they chanted "we can't hear you" while they were winning.

It was glorious to chant the "good bye" song after we put it out of reach.

 

[ThePoint]

UConn tried to counter our guards by running into them at various points in bringing the ball up the court. This was somewhat successful in allowing them to hang with a better team.

Georgetown obviously watched the tape and had their point guard "body check" our guard on the two first plays of the game.

Buffalo intended to be physical with our guards - chuck them, hold them and in a few cases - dive under their feet. As was mentioned by the TV analyst, they were taking the risk that the refs will not call all of the fouls. This is classic Pitino strategy.

I just do not want to see basketball played that way - I would rather see freedom of movement.

Does anyone really like watching this type of basketball?

 

[SBU72]

Didn’t we play in Rochester circa 2005?

That was part of a 2 for 1 deal (SU-Bona-SU) with the Bona home game in Rochester. I think its a pretty goos deal for all. Bona has been playing 1 game a year in Roch for the past vew years. Sat right after SU was going OT at GT, Bona beat Vermont at the buzzer.
I went to the game you mentioned and waa surprised that only 5-6000 showed. Expected more with a healthy contingent from SU but it didn'thappen.

 

[Trueblue25]

Was nice to see the actually Trueblue UB student section had a small holiday contingent make it to the game. Was rowdy and fun when i was in school and attending games during Hurley’s success

 

[FanFromOhio]

That coach may have been a jerk in what he said. His team doubled Battle to deny him the ball and then to keep him from driving whenever he had it, guarded Howard tightly to force mistakes, and played tough on Brissett to prevent him from driving to the hoop (and got called for a bunch of fouls in the process). They were stronger inside -- simple fact.

Does not make it a dirty game. Opinions on that will vary, but if you have followed SU basketball over the years, you have seen a lot of tough, physical games against Big Ten teams & Big East teams. I was at the game & watched a replay yesterday. We are going to see more games like that, where our inside guys have to struggle against physical play, and our main scorers get pressed hard by defenders.

I have watched Buffalo play a half dozen times over the past year in the MAC and that is how they play, it was just a tough physical game in my opinion. Oates does say some stupid stuff on occasion and he did again after the SU game. But to his credit, his team plays hard and he went to the tournament in 2015, 2016, and Buffalo is a favorite to win the MAC again. Last year I asked a friend from Buffalo why HW didn’t stay home and play at Buffalo, he responded that he probably wouldn’t play which I thought was strange. But after watching those guards hound Frank and Battle all night he might be right.

 

[SoBeCuse]

I have watched Buffalo play a half dozen times over the past year in the MAC and that is how they play, it was just a tough physical game in my opinion. Oates does say some stupid stuff on occasion and he did again after the SU game. But to his credit, his team plays hard and he went to the tournament in 2015, 2016, and Buffalo is a favorite to win the MAC again. Last year I asked a friend from Buffalo why HW didn’t stay home and play at Buffalo, he responded that he probably wouldn’t play which I thought was strange. But after watching those guards hound Frank and Battle all night he might be right.

They have a nice collection of guards. 2H they were driving by our guys at will and creating all kinds of problems in the paint for themselves or setting up threes. Defensively they were really good on the ball. If Frank was a quicker player and better ballhandler this game would’ve been a decent 10-15pt cushion for SU the whole game. Oshae was the difference. I’m impressed we fought back and got that W. This team won’t go down without a fight which is so awesome to see. Like you say, UB has a culture of success lately and have tasted the Tourney. Only Frank has experienced some postseason on this team in terms of NCAAT.

Jayvon Graves is a nice looking freshman guard. Didn’t realize he was from Akron St.V/M. That team (in my backyard) has been dominant the past few years. Yeah no way Howard Washington plays on UB over him.

 

[newmexicuse]

Damnit you forced to be respond. Spare me your heroic ‘I’m a better fan than you’ garbage. I would encourage you to watch the game again. You can’t just ignore my examples and stick to your H0T Takes. I called this a good win many times in various threads. I’m proud of this team to date. I, just like Boeheim, thought this was a very good win. Unlike you, I think Buffalo is a good team. They played like a team as well as they clearly have more experience as we are still figuring out roles, have shaky offense, depth issues, etc. They didn’t just mug us and show no skill out there. They had the best post player on the floor and a collection of guards who probably outperformed ours, IMO. Oshae was a monster and saved the day. Oh, but go ahead and call me a bad fan, lol, if I speak the truth or close to it. BTW, did you whine and complain after the South Carolina game? Because they defended us no differently.

There are obviously posters who share my opinion that UB wasn’t dirty. Do me a favor and let’s ignore each other, K?

I did not see the game, so I have no direct input.

However, I do have a question for those of you who disagree with SoBeCuse.

My question is this - if there were all of those dirty fouls and under-cutting, what the heck did our guys do back to them ?

Surely, our guys are not a squad full of pansies, that would take all of that garbage from a team of lesser, presumably not as strong athletes, and do nothing in response.

So, let's get both sides here.

 

[Orangezoo]

UB was Pitt with Dixon essentially. I much rather we had played them earlier on in the year given we really didn't need such a physical game right before conference play. I hate playing teams like them because it isn't good basketball. It's physical play with hoops in between.