Bullough vs Ward

[HRE Otto IV]

You remember that the 81 in Marrone/SS second year was after we graduated a bunch of good seniors that GRob had failed to recruit replacements for. We played young undersized guys on the d line that year and our horrible depth let us get worn down. The next two years we clearly improved. That 81 seemed to be the outlier in the first set, whereas the 33 seemed to be the outlier in the second.

The 81 was in year three. The next year was a 66, is that clearly improving? Is 15 spots clearly an outlier? Even if you remove the two "outliers" (which isn't really fair since one is poor and the other is good) Shafer's D didn't rank much higher than Bullough's D.

We did lose a lot of guys after 2010 but still had 11 upperclassmen in the 2 deep. The problem was the JR class was the transition class which happens when you change coaches, which is not GRob's nor Marrone's fault.

I wouldn't say we were undersized at all on the DL. We did lack depth. There was nothing at DT after the starters. Our starting DEs were hurt all year. Sharpe not developing until his SR year really hurt as well.

The LBs were a problem, Vaughan started and we rotated two true freshman at the other LB spot.

But the group that played the worst that season were the DBs. There really was no excuse for that. Our SS and FS were both returning guys. We had a SR CB and three young CBs who had talent and prior time on the field. Which is why IMO Marrone brought in Donnie Henderson over Shafer's head to fix the problem.

Shafer was a decent DC, as was Bullough. IMO Shafer was the better guy to have back there. But the OP made it sound like Shafer was Don Brown and Bullough was GRob, which isn't the case.

 

[money3189]

You can't prove that our base scheme would have held GT in check. Maybe, maybe not. GT was a big favorite in that game.

So what did Brian Ward try against the option attack of Georgia Southern? The BGSU base defense, or a new scheme? Not to knock Ward, but sometimes (same as in our game against GT) the defense just gets out-manned. And BGSU was a pick-em in that game, and still got run out of the stadium.

I didn't say our base scheme would have hold them. No one plays their base defense the whole game. You have to scheme and game plan. You make small adjustments within your base. When you change your base defense you are changing alignment, your base reads, how you take on blocks and the angles you take to make tackles. Its a big risk. On top of that you are adding specific stunts, blitzes coverages for specific situations. I've learned that myself being a D coordinator for 15 years. I don't like to call people out but I've had conversations with people and I was flat out told they screwed that one up. So my thoughts are based off what people have told me.

Now I probably watched that GS game on youtube 10 times now. I thought Ward had a good game plan. There were 3 or 4 plays where they could have prevented a TD or ended a drive. I saw stunts designed to stop where they were trying to attack. There were corner blitzes to stop the pitch man. BG had quite a few TFL's. Its was sound scheme but it really came down to GS players and scheme being better than BG's. BG's offense turning the ball over 2 possessions in a row in the red zone was too much for the defense. The GS offense is a machine that no one totally stops. That QB that runs a 4.2 40. BG didn't have anyone to match that in the second half. BG's offense also put more pressure on the defense in the second half because they didn't score like they usually do. I don't know if its was because of the rain or what not.

 

[SoBristol]

So SU gets run over by GT and it is a screw up but BGSU gets run over by GS and it's a pile of excuses and GS was just too good. Got it.

 

[money3189]

So SU gets run over by GT and it is a screw up but BGSU gets run over by GS and it's a pile of excuses and GS was just too good. Got it.

SU had good enough players to defend GT better. 38 points was the most they scored vs a conference team. We gave up 56 and it could have been worse. losing 56-0 to a 7-6 team is not normal. We looked like a JV team playing its first game. What we did the following weeks vs Wake and Maryland tells you what we were capable of vs GT. There is no excuse for that. Especially when you have defensive minds like Shaf and Bullough. Plus a great D line coach who is now a Coordinator.
Not making excuses for BG either. They had a solid scheme that was working for awhile but they got beat up in the second half. Bullough knows his stuff and has a lot of experience. That doesn't mean Ward doesn't know his stuff and isn't capable of being better. If you dont want to hear peoples opinions then don't reply to my posts. If you dont understand what I am saying. Give me a DM and I can explain it better. Hopefully that can eliminate your sarcastic response

 

[SUFan44]

Ward may one day be better, but Bullough's background and experiences give him the edge.

Bullough had a number of years of experience as a linebackers coach and at the highest levels of the NFL, but only two as a defensive coordinator at any level. UCLA from 2009-10.

Ward has not had the high level (NFL) experience that Bullough had, but he's been a defensive coordinator at the NAIA, JUCO, Division III, Division II, Division I FCS and Division I FBS levels. He was a head coach before. He actually has more coordinator experience at the Division I level than Bullough had when he took over at Syracuse and just one less at the FBS level.

In my opinion, it's easy to say because Bullough has the NFL experience he has a better resume. But in this day and age, I personally would rather have someone that has been the "guy" and has more experience being the ultimate decision guy over high level training - because we have seen numerous times, especially at Syracuse, that NFL doesn't necessarily equate to success at the collegiate level.

 

[money3189]

Bullough had a number of years of experience as a linebackers coach and at the highest levels of the NFL, but only two as a defensive coordinator at any level. UCLA from 2009-10.

Ward has not had the high level (NFL) experience that Bullough had, but he's been a defensive coordinator at the NAIA, JUCO, Division III, Division II, Division I FCS and Division I FBS levels. He was a head coach before. He actually has more coordinator experience at the Division I level than Bullough had when he took over at Syracuse and just one less at the FBS level.

In my opinion, it's easy to say because Bullough has the NFL experience he has a better resume. But in this day and age, I personally would rather have someone that has been the "guy" and has more experience being the ultimate decision guy over high level training - because we have seen numerous times, especially at Syracuse, that NFL doesn't necessarily equate to success at the collegiate level.

Everyone gets excited when they see someone who coached in the NFL. lol Oh he's the best, we cant question him. Yeah that attitude worked with McDonald too. lol

 

[Ish88888]

That GT loss was a huge indictment on bullough. Not sure what the breakdown was and how much input Shaf had but he is a good defensive mind and had veto power as the head man. The defense never played like a SS defense with bullough. Even through tough years and some minimal success with doug, we had some really great defenses that battled. Never saw that dynamic quality with bullough. I always maintained that Daoust was our best assistant and miss him already.

 

[SUFan44]

Everyone gets excited when they see someone who coached in the NFL. lol Oh he's the best, we cant question him. Yeah that attitude worked with McDonald too. lol

And again, I'm not saying some don't work. I'm also not saying Ward will succeed. But I just don't think you can give Bullough the edge over Ward based on their past experience prior to coming to SU just because of his NFL experience. Dig a little deeper and I like Ward's experience better.

 

[rrlbees]

Everyone gets excited when they see someone who coached in the NFL. lol Oh he's the best, we cant question him. Yeah that attitude worked with McDonald too. lol

Why belittle his nfl experience? It was 7 years worth and also 6-7 years at Michigan St and UCLA. Big time football.

 

[kcsu]

And again, I'm not saying some don't work. I'm also not saying Ward will succeed. But I just don't think you can give Bullough the edge over Ward based on their past experience prior to coming to SU just because of his NFL experience. Dig a little deeper and I like Ward's experience better.

Nobody thinks CB has more experience as a D.coordinator. it's not even close.

 

[Alsacs]

Coach Lock 'em didn't have a good staff outside of Daoust. He wasn't given time his first year and they still had that 7-6 year.
Out coaching staff was weak. Bullough never adjusted his scheme to the roster.
Th offense killed the D in 2014 and last year the D was just awful outside of the young players who didn't have a chance.

We upgraded at HC thus I have conference the DC will be better.

I thank the Former HC for his players he brought in but Dino has me excited something I haven't felt in SUFB this century.

 

[money3189]

And again, I'm not saying some don't work. I'm also not saying Ward will succeed. But I just don't think you can give Bullough the edge over Ward based on their past experience prior to coming to SU just because of his NFL experience. Dig a little deeper and I like Ward's experience better.

I agree. We dont know how successful Ward will be. I just think people have misguided skepticism.

 

[kcsu]

Agreed. But history is often indicative of the future

 

[TheCusian]

Give me a HC and an offensive/defensive philosophy that makes sense - and then add a bright young DC over two good DC's trying to figure it out every time.

Ward's numbers will have a hard time matching Bullough/Shafer - but it will be due to more time on the field defending more plays from passing teams trying to keep up.

Also this is a good spot to remind everyone that Ward's Tampa 2 was good for #8 in the nation in INT's.

 

[007]

Until we see Ward's results, it's all speculative.

I think the more important issue is the mesh between DB's O philosophy and what Ward will be trying to accomplish with the T2. It's not just a coincidence that Ward will use the T2. It is part of Dino's overall plan. Without question, DB is going to try to score as many points as he can, as quickly as he can. This in turn will force offenses to open up/pass more. The goal of the T2 is to decrease the rate of scoring, while increasing 3rd down efficiency and turnovers. These are the 3 areas that will determine Ward's success, IMO.

 

[money3189]

Until we see Ward's results, it's all speculative.

I think the more important issue is the mesh between DB's O philosophy and what Ward will be trying to accomplish with the T2. It's not just a coincidence that Ward will use the T2. It is part of Dino's overall plan. Without question, DB is going to try to score as many points as he can, as quickly as he can. This in turn will force offenses to open up/pass more. The goal of the T2 is to decrease the rate of scoring, while increasing 3rd down efficiency and turnovers. These are the 3 areas that will determine Ward's success, IMO.

Good points 007

 

[SUFan44]

Until we see Ward's results, it's all speculative.

I think the more important issue is the mesh between DB's O philosophy and what Ward will be trying to accomplish with the T2. It's not just a coincidence that Ward will use the T2. It is part of Dino's overall plan. Without question, DB is going to try to score as many points as he can, as quickly as he can. This in turn will force offenses to open up/pass more. The goal of the T2 is to decrease the rate of scoring, while increasing 3rd down efficiency and turnovers. These are the 3 areas that will determine Ward's success, IMO.

I think the first part everyone should be able to agree with. No success is guaranteed. And your second point is fine, too.

I think the part that was debatable (at least for me) was saying Ward's experience and resume was not up to the resume of Bullough's.

 

[007]

I think the first part everyone should be able to agree with. No success is guaranteed. And your second point is fine, too.

I think the part that was debatable (at least for me) was saying Ward's experience and resume was not up to the resume of Bullough's.

You quoted me, but I never addressed the resume issue.

 

[SUFan44]

You quoted me, but I never addressed the resume issue.

You didn't quote anyone, was just making a general statement. Not being critical.

 

[anomander]

I will never get over that either. You dont change your whole scheme for 1 team. I remember Shafer saying he prepare for GT long before the game. Yup, they out coached themselves on that one.

The GT game, and what I heard about our game planning, was my first concern over HCSS. Apparently we out sourced our defensive game plan for that week... As in hired an outside consultant that specialized in stopping the triple option. I kid you not.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

The GT game, and what I heard about our game planning, was my first concern over HCSS. Apparently we out sourced our defensive game plan for that week... As in hired an outside consultant that specialized in stopping the triple option. I kid you not.

...

Our defense first coaches... outsourced their defensive game plan?

...

Couldn't we have outsourced our punting decisions?

 

[money3189]

The GT game, and what I heard about our game planning, was my first concern over HCSS. Apparently we out sourced our defensive game plan for that week... As in hired an outside consultant that specialized in stopping the triple option. I kid you not.

Interesting that they went after outside consultation. Obviously that was a bad move.

 

[Ragman2000]

My kingdom for Dino's offense and Shafer's D. Both play fast and aggressive. Shame we can't have both.

 

[TheCusian]

My kingdom for Dino's offense and Shafer's D. Both play fast and aggressive. Shame we can't have both.

Shafer's D took to many chances and left guys on islands - multiply that be extra possessions and you're looking at giving up lots of big plays, IMO.

I like to watch that style of defense - but I'm not sure it's all that suited to a high tempo O.

 

[money3189]

I like a fast and aggressive defense too but that would be a bad match with Dino's offense. Shafer's defense is high risk high reward. We don't need to be risk takers with this offense. BG's defense is designed to get takeaways. They've been ranked high in that category. We just have to be patient. TO's will come. At least I hope. lol