Buyers Remorse?

[qdawgg]

Wayne Williams is going to be a beast. Because he's been on board for awhile and there was no reason to believe he was going anywhere else, this applies to quite a few of our commits too, people are feeling a little let down. If some of these same players popped up on the radar this week and picked us between 2 other hats, we'd all be excited as hell.

It's the same class regardless, I think this is a pretty good class and there is potential for it to be much much better than it's rated. In the past we've had classes we tried to convince ourselves would be pretty good and would end up being better than anticipated. This years class and even last years class I think we could say that without having to put the beer goggles on. We had been signing 15 kids that nobody else in the world wanted and then trying to convince ourselves that despite the fact they needed to add 125 lbs of muscle, they had a pretty decent 40 time but for some reason we convinced ourselves they were going to turn into blazing fast speed freaks in the dome. I'm guilty as charged.

This class of commits is different. These are legit players. There are barely any that would be considered reaches (maybe none). We are slowly building a base of very solid players, with size, with speed, playing at competitive H.S. programs, and with offers/interest from top 50 college programs.

Let's be somewhat realistic. We were never going to be a top 10 program even if we did sign the kids who decided to sign with other schools that are transvestites dressed up in mini-skirts and fake boobs. But that doesn't mean we can have a football team that's competitive and fun to watch. This isn't a star rating bash but you can be a top 35 program with a #70 recruiting class. It'll be higher next year anyway.

 

[phil77]

Question 1: But the big question is can you be a top 35 program year in and year out with "2-3 star" recruits.

Answer 1: Yes if you can coach them up on a regular basis

Question 2: If a coach can maintain a program at the top 35 clip while getting only 2-3 star recruits will we be able to contain him?

Answer 2: Probably not. The coach at some point will want to be in a better spot that can either A- compete for a conference title or B- A national title. Or the pros (Just like we saw with DM)

 

[baggerbob]

The thing about the finish this year, even though we didn't swing all the late recruits. For the 1st time in probably 18 years, we at least got some visits from players who the better schools wanted.

 

[RMH44]

Question 1: But the big question is can you be a top 35 program year in and year out with "2-3 star" recruits.

Answer 1: Yes if you can coach them up on a regular basis

Question 2: If a coach can maintain a program at the top 35 clip while getting only 2-3 star recruits will we be able to contain him?

Answer 2: Probably not. The coach at some point will want to be in a better spot that can either A- compete for a conference title or B- A national title. Or the pros (Just like we saw with DM)

I think you have weigh a staff's ability to evaluate talent as well. That's something DM's crew did very well.

 

[VirginiaOrange]

As has been discussed here before, once you get past the top 50 - 100 kids it becomes a crap shoot. Go look at SU's 2010 class, one that should be contributing by now. SU had 11 kids rated 3 stars and only 4 have contributed as starters (Lyn, West, Davis and Goggins) and 1 has contributed only a little bit (Welsh). The other 7 are either gone (Cater and Miller), never made (Timbers) it or will never contribute (Kinder and Beaulieu). Myles Davis is the last and has not contributed.

IMO - the key to this class are the JUCO LBs and the S. If they can play up to their measurables, the defense will be huge and fast.

The DL JUCOs will be icing if they live up to their ratings. For some reason I have a hunch Williams is going to be a beast - and if he's not, he'll be a great teammate as he appears to have a great personality. Trejo adds more depth and might be the speed rusher SU is looking for.

The OL Miller adds depth - but more importantly, if he can play he will allow some other OL to move around. It is always hard to know which OL that aren't playing or are being redshirted are real players (other than having someone out here pass along who they hear the coaches like). I read some nice things about Emerich last year so if Miller can back up at C perhaps Emerich moves to somewhere he can get on the field now.

As far as the HS kids, maybe I am wrong but regardless of the star rankings, these kids seem to all have more and/or better offers than we have seen a lot of kids have in the past. And as I have said several times out here, there is no shame for a new staff to lose out to programs like Miami, Tennessee, Clemson, etc. More importantly, rather than dwell on those losses why not love the fact that the new staff plucked some solid kids out of nowhere - most of whom ended up getting full court presses from other solid programs (or at least big schools) while sticking with SU.

Side note - biggest get to me is Kendall Moore. SU has very solid guards but has not done as well with OTs. Hay and Alexander were JUCO busts and the last 2 classes did not include many strong OT recruits (although some that were guards, like Emerich may end up at OT). Moore is by far the best HS OT that SU has grabbed since they got Pugh (a dreaded 2 star!!). I am not buying into the TE switch - seems too slow to be TE but has the body to grow into a legit OT. No need either as the last two classes have stacked the position with Thompson, Parris, Provo and Batten - and the offense does not appear to have a need for a blocking TE.

And do not forget the two transfers - the best recruits in the class!!

 

[bnoro]

Question 1: But the big question is can you be a top 35 program year in and year out with "2-3 star" recruits.

Answer 1: Yes if you can coach them up on a regular basis

Question 2: If a coach can maintain a program at the top 35 clip while getting only 2-3 star recruits will we be able to contain him?

Answer 2: Probably not. The coach at some point will want to be in a better spot that can either A- compete for a conference title or B- A national title. Or the pros (Just like we saw with DM)

Does this question matter if the staff doesn't use "stars"?

Recruiting is as much about finding kids that fit as it is finding the most talented kids. If you recruit a MLB that is 6'0'' 215 that can run a 4.5 40 do you take him over a kid that is 6'4'' 245 that runs a 5.0 40? Depends what type of defense you are running, no? It's really all about fit. Our staff did a great job at that.

 

[Rocco]

Does this question matter if the staff doesn't use "stars"?

Recruiting is as much about finding kids that fit as it is finding the most talented kids. If you recruit a MLB that is 6'0'' 215 that can run a 4.5 40 do you take him over a kid that is 6'4'' 245 that runs a 5.0 40? Depends what type of defense you are running, no? It's really all about fit. Our staff did a great job at that.

And they will continue to use a modified system of that. The "stars" ranking is comical, in nature, and financially.

 

[dinosaurbbq]

The biggest difference is we are battling the big boys now both on the field and in recruiting. We aren't fighting for recruits against the Mac or conference USA. We have an opportunity. That's what it is, an opportunity. We need to make the most of it and it seems we are.

I'm beginning to think HCSS is going to run 1 coach light so he could pay his coaches each more. Take the salary and spread it among the 8 other guys. If we are successful, they'll commit more money to hire the 9th asst coach for next year. Any chance of that?

 

[bnoro]

The biggest difference is we are battling the big boys now both on the field and in recruiting. We aren't fighting for recruits against the Mac or conference USA. We have an opportunity. That's what it is, an opportunity. We need to make the most of it and it seems we are.

I'm beginning to think HCSS is going to run 1 coach light so he could pay his coaches each more. Take the salary and spread it among the 8 other guys. If we are successful, they'll commit more money to hire the 9th asst coach for next year. Any chance of that?

absolutely not.

 

[phil77]

Does this question matter if the staff doesn't use "stars"?

Recruiting is as much about finding kids that fit as it is finding the most talented kids. If you recruit a MLB that is 6'0'' 215 that can run a 4.5 40 do you take him over a kid that is 6'4'' 245 that runs a 5.0 40? Depends what type of defense you are running, no? It's really all about fit. Our staff did a great job at that.

That is why the stars are in quotes. I don't really care what stars people are. But over the time you can not build a consistent winner taking kids that fit your system. On occasion you will hit it right and get a Kline like Kansas St. OR a Kellen Moore like Boise St or and Andy Dalton or LT like TCU but over the long haul you will not be consistently battling for ACC championships which is where we should be IMO. With a couple exceptions all the teams and universities with the "highest ranking" recruiting class are always near the top of the rankings. Granted you will have the occasional surprise but more than not you recruit highly rated players you win more games.

The star system doesn't matter when you are battling year in and year out for 2-3 star players that fit your system. But if you are an Alabama, Florida State, USC, Michigan, Ohio St ect. rankings do matter and getting the best kids do matter. I understand who we are and where are program is at currently but I don't want to settle to one of those programs that once every 7-10 years might win an ACC title like a Wake Forest or NC State. I want to be in there fighting for it every year.

Higher end talent can play in any system.

 

[AAM62]

Hey, JJ Watt was a two star recruit. Just food for thought. We can't pull top tier talent considering the cuse winters, small crowd size, and lack of fan support (as compared to other schools). As long as we can develop players and be competitive, things should continue to progress well.

 

[SUalldway]

As has been discussed here before, once you get past the top 50 - 100 kids it becomes a crap shoot. Go look at SU's 2010 class, one that should be contributing by now. SU had 11 kids rated 3 stars and only 4 have contributed as starters (Lyn, West, Davis and Goggins) and 1 has contributed only a little bit (Welsh). The other 7 are either gone (Cater and Miller), never made (Timbers) it or will never contribute (Kinder and Beaulieu). Myles Davis is the last and has not contributed.

IMO - the key to this class are the JUCO LBs and the S. If they can play up to their measurables, the defense will be huge and fast.

The DL JUCOs will be icing if they live up to their ratings. For some reason I have a hunch Williams is going to be a beast - and if he's not, he'll be a great teammate as he appears to have a great personality. Trejo adds more depth and might be the speed rusher SU is looking for.

The OL Miller adds depth - but more importantly, if he can play he will allow some other OL to move around. It is always hard to know which OL that aren't playing or are being redshirted are real players (other than having someone out here pass along who they hear the coaches like). I read some nice things about Emerich last year so if Miller can back up at C perhaps Emerich moves to somewhere he can get on the field now.

As far as the HS kids, maybe I am wrong but regardless of the star rankings, these kids seem to all have more and/or better offers than we have seen a lot of kids have in the past. And as I have said several times out here, there is no shame for a new staff to lose out to programs like Miami, Tennessee, Clemson, etc. More importantly, rather than dwell on those losses why not love the fact that the new staff plucked some solid kids out of nowhere - most of whom ended up getting full court presses from other solid programs (or at least big schools) while sticking with SU.

Side note - biggest get to me is Kendall Moore. SU has very solid guards but has not done as well with OTs. Hay and Alexander were JUCO busts and the last 2 classes did not include many strong OT recruits (although some that were guards, like Emerich may end up at OT). Moore is by far the best HS OT that SU has grabbed since they got Pugh (a dreaded 2 star!!). I am not buying into the TE switch - seems too slow to be TE but has the body to grow into a legit OT. No need either as the last two classes have stacked the position with Thompson, Parris, Provo and Batten - and the offense does not appear to have a need for a blocking TE.

And do not forget the two transfers - the best recruits in the class!!

Absolutely! I wonder if any of the the other ACC recruiting classes are adding in xfr prospects equal to Funderburke & Raymon.

 

[qdawgg]

That is why the stars are in quotes. I don't really care what stars people are. But over the time you can not build a consistent winner taking kids that fit your system. On occasion you will hit it right and get a Kline like Kansas St. OR a Kellen Moore like Boise St or and Andy Dalton or LT like TCU but over the long haul you will not be consistently battling for ACC championships which is where we should be IMO. With a couple exceptions all the teams and universities with the "highest ranking" recruiting class are always near the top of the rankings. Granted you will have the occasional surprise but more than not you recruit highly rated players you win more games.

The star system doesn't matter when you are battling year in and year out for 2-3 star players that fit your system. But if you are an Alabama, Florida State, USC, Michigan, Ohio St ect. rankings do matter and getting the best kids do matter. I understand who we are and where are program is at currently but I don't want to settle to one of those programs that once every 7-10 years might win an ACC title like a Wake Forest or NC State. I want to be in there fighting for it every year.

Higher end talent can play in any system.

I don't disagree with the basics in your post. If we were ever going to be a consistent top 10 we would need to be getting players largely recognized by other top 25 schools and recruiting sites as the "better" players available. But here are a few things to consider.

We will never be a consistent top 10 team, even a consistent top 25 team will be difficult year in and year out. We can be a very competitive and top 40 team year in and year out while at the same time having a recruiting class of mostly 3 star and 2 star players.

It is a fact that players SU looks at and identifies as really good players (we'll call them 3 stars) are going to be considered 2 star players by recruiting sites. That won't change until other schools show interest. If SU is on some of these kids much earlier than schools from the B10 and SEC and those schools come late to the party, it's likely the kids will stay at a 2 star. Especially since a lot of times there is no formal offer because they're gauging interest first and if they realize the kid is fully committed to SU they just go on to the next kid of a similar skill set.

My point is, we get kids all the time that should really be high 3 star kids but never get that star assigned to them for numerous reasons. It doesn't mean they aren't talented. I personally have much more faith in the system that Marrone employed and the one that Shafer is at least using or using a variation of, then recruiting sites that can't watch all of the kids and assign stars. Boise St. is a great example, recruiting classes in the 60 - 80's, from year to year. While at the same time winning big games and highly ranked. Why? Because they weren't a top flight program and the recruiting sites didn't pay attention to their recruits, they ended up with kids that the really big schools passed over, a lot like TCU in Texas. Those 2 and 3 star kids were still players and they showed it on the field.

Your right that if we were recruiting 4 star kids primarily it would probably equal a higher amount of success or more consistent high level of success. But a lot of 2 and 3 star players are potential 4 - 5 star players by the time they end their careers. There are many reason why 2 star kids don't receive at least 3 stars and if we had a few more players at 3 stars instead of 2 stars the class would appear to be much better. There isn't a huge difference between the average star ranking of a class in the 70's and a class in the 40's - 50's anyway, so the margin for error is very high.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

I follow recruiting to see who we get, from where, etc etc. I also like to competing versus bigger programs for recruits, see who a kid has offers from etc. From that end, as far as offers, I don't think there is any comparison from spot 1 through 20 where we are today and where we were 4 years ago. How do I know? It shows on the field. The recruiting has gotten stronger from top to bottom for sure. You can see that our team has gotten bigger, faster, stronger. Unfortunately, I think marrone's NYC efforts would have paid off big this year but we will never know.

Facilities are the number one thing holding the recruiting back IMO and have been for a few years. The perception of the program being a loser has changed more throughout the Northeast than it has locally. Piss poor attendance will never help recruiting, I am not saying it's justified or it isn't, but it's the reality. These things matter, but those of you waiting for 4 and 5 star recruits to flow in because of this new staff, are once again setting yourselves up for a let down. I do think recruiting will improve, but HCSS has to prove his merit on the field first... Plain and simple. That will be a big part of how well we can recruit. Get the Indoor practice facility moving, win some games and it will take off. When I say take off I mean top 40 class, probably where this program is going to top out. Not saying that can'tresult in an ACC championship but if you get out and see what we are competing with it's not an even fight for the most part. Can any of you honestly blame a kid for wanting to go to Tenny rather than Syracuse who resides in Florida?

 

[chakka3421]

IB - word is that they are breaking ground on the IPF within 3 months. HCDM's leaving was the catalyst. I dont care what the admins say about my post, but on good authority a number of members on the BOT got supportive real fast to get this built. I dont yet know how it is being paid for, but its happening in May and/or June at the latest.

 

[TheCusian]

I follow recruiting to see who we get, from where, etc etc. I also like to competing versus bigger programs for recruits, see who a kid has offers from etc. From that end, as far as offers, I don't think there is any comparison from spot 1 through 20 where we are today and where we were 4 years ago. How do I know? It shows on the field. The recruiting has gotten stronger from top to bottom for sure. You can see that our team has gotten bigger, faster, stronger. Unfortunately, I think marrone's NYC efforts would have paid off big this year but we will never know.

Facilities are the number one thing holding the recruiting back IMO and have been for a few years. The perception of the program being a loser has changed more throughout the Northeast than it has locally. Piss poor attendance will never help recruiting, I am not saying it's justified or it isn't, but it's the reality. These things matter, but those of you waiting for 4 and 5 star recruits to flow in because of this new staff, are once again setting yourselves up for a let down. I do think recruiting will improve, but HCSS has to prove his merit on the field first... Plain and simple. That will be a big part of how well we can recruit. Get the Indoor practice facility moving, win some games and it will take off. When I say take off I mean top 40 class, probably where this program is going to top out. Not saying that can'tresult in an ACC championship but if you get out and see what we are competing with it's not an even fight for the most part. Can any of you honestly blame a kid for wanting to go to Tenny rather than Syracuse who resides in Florida?

Yep. If you base the biggest choice of your athletic career and your life outside of football on weather then you deserve what you get. Is it a factor? Of course, but as HCSS said - it's about people 1st. Extras like warm weather are farther down the list.

 

[anomander]

I follow recruiting to see who we get, from where, etc etc. I also like to competing versus bigger programs for recruits, see who a kid has offers from etc. From that end, as far as offers, I don't think there is any comparison from spot 1 through 20 where we are today and where we were 4 years ago. How do I know? It shows on the field. The recruiting has gotten stronger from top to bottom for sure. You can see that our team has gotten bigger, faster, stronger. Unfortunately, I think marrone's NYC efforts would have paid off big this year but we will never know.

Facilities are the number one thing holding the recruiting back IMO and have been for a few years. The perception of the program being a loser has changed more throughout the Northeast than it has locally. Piss poor attendance will never help recruiting, I am not saying it's justified or it isn't, but it's the reality. These things matter, but those of you waiting for 4 and 5 star recruits to flow in because of this new staff, are once again setting yourselves up for a let down. I do think recruiting will improve, but HCSS has to prove his merit on the field first... Plain and simple. That will be a big part of how well we can recruit. Get the Indoor practice facility moving, win some games and it will take off. When I say take off I mean top 40 class, probably where this program is going to top out. Not saying that can'tresult in an ACC championship but if you get out and see what we are competing with it's not an even fight for the most part. Can any of you honestly blame a kid for wanting to go to Tenny rather than Syracuse who resides in Florida?

This isn't pointed towards you but it is this inferiority complex that many seem to have is a bit annoying . I feel we can do much better then top out at a top 40 recruiting class . It was just over ten years ago we started the season at what pre season #5? That's 10 years, this isn't going back to the time of Ernie Davis and our national title . Sure it was a tough 10 years with a horrible hire and some how we allowed ourselves to fall so far behind in the facility arms race . But all the way up to 2000 this program had great fan support and year in and year out was a top 25 team. If we can continue to improve on facilities I have no doubt we will once again be a top 25 team on a consistent basis. Being in the acc and being one of the only big time football teams in the northeast should allow us to attract quality kids . I may be overly optimistic about next season but with our current roster I fully see us gettig off to a great start in the acc which will only continue to spring board us back to the top . HCSS and the staff he has assembled seem more fit for the college game and I can see them attracting some very quality classes . Now the only thing we need is to get people back into the dome, which will come with wins.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

It was just over ten years ago we started the season at what pre season #5?

We haven't been ranked pre-season since 1998. And that was at #17.

We were pre-season #6 ... back in 1993 (when Graves was a Senior). Twenty years ago.

 

[anomander]

We haven't been ranked pre-season since 1998. And that was at #17.

We were pre-season #6 ... back in 1993 (when Graves was a Senior). Twenty years ago.

I was thinking we were pre season #6 Mcnabb's senior year? I was going off
Memory I must be losing it? Still it wasn't that long ago we were competing with the tops teams . I know I'm not wasting my hard earned money on tickets and donations to be a top 40 team and middle of the pack acc year in and year out though . I truly believe we can get back to those days, otherwise what's the point?

 

[TheCusian]

I was thinking we were pre season #6 Mcnabb's senior year? I was going off
Memory I must be losing it? Still it wasn't that long ago we were competing with the tops teams . I know I'm not wasting my hard earned money on tickets and donations to be a top 40 team and middle of the pack acc year in and year out though . I truly believe we can get back to those days, otherwise what's the point?

Agreed. It's one thing to say "probably unlikely" and another thing to say "never." Who knows?

Especially with the new IPF. Melo Center gave BBall a definite bump.

 

[phil77]

I don't disagree with the basics in your post. If we were ever going to be a consistent top 10 we would need to be getting players largely recognized by other top 25 schools and recruiting sites as the "better" players available. But here are a few things to consider.

We will never be a consistent top 10 team, even a consistent top 25 team will be difficult year in and year out. We can be a very competitive and top 40 team year in and year out while at the same time having a recruiting class of mostly 3 star and 2 star players.

It is a fact that players SU looks at and identifies as really good players (we'll call them 3 stars) are going to be considered 2 star players by recruiting sites. That won't change until other schools show interest. If SU is on some of these kids much earlier than schools from the B10 and SEC and those schools come late to the party, it's likely the kids will stay at a 2 star. Especially since a lot of times there is no formal offer because they're gauging interest first and if they realize the kid is fully committed to SU they just go on to the next kid of a similar skill set.

My point is, we get kids all the time that should really be high 3 star kids but never get that star assigned to them for numerous reasons. It doesn't mean they aren't talented. I personally have much more faith in the system that Marrone employed and the one that Shafer is at least using or using a variation of, then recruiting sites that can't watch all of the kids and assign stars. Boise St. is a great example, recruiting classes in the 60 - 80's, from year to year. While at the same time winning big games and highly ranked. Why? Because they weren't a top flight program and the recruiting sites didn't pay attention to their recruits, they ended up with kids that the really big schools passed over, a lot like TCU in Texas. Those 2 and 3 star kids were still players and they showed it on the field.

Your right that if we were recruiting 4 star kids primarily it would probably equal a higher amount of success or more consistent high level of success. But a lot of 2 and 3 star players are potential 4 - 5 star players by the time they end their careers. There are many reason why 2 star kids don't receive at least 3 stars and if we had a few more players at 3 stars instead of 2 stars the class would appear to be much better. There isn't a huge difference between the average star ranking of a class in the 70's and a class in the 40's - 50's anyway, so the margin for error is very high.

My question is why was the basketball team all the sudden turn it around and be a top 10 team year end and year out?

 

[anomander]

My question is why was the basketball team all the sudden turn it around and be a top 10 team year end and year out?

facilities

 

[phil77]

facilities

If that is the only thing holding us back then we are having ground breaking on facilities really soon correct? So why would we hold the basketball team to top 10 standards and the football team to top 40 standards? Seems we are setting the bar pretty low for football.

My point being. We have facilities coming very soon. We have ace recruiters. I don't know why we can not duplicate the success of the basketball program? That shouldnt be setting the bar to high. If the basketball program can do it in Syracuse then no reason why I shouldn't or we shouldn't expect the same from our football program,

 

[anomander]

If that is the only thing holding us back then we are having ground breaking on facilities really soon correct? So why would we hold the basketball team to top 10 standards and the football team to top 40 standards? Seems we are setting the bar pretty low for football.

My point being. We have facilities coming very soon. We have ace recruiters. I don't know why we can not duplicate the success of the basketball program? That shouldnt be setting the bar to high. If the basketball program can do it in Syracuse then no reason why I shouldn't or we shouldn't expect the same from our football program,

I agree with you 100%. There have already been upgrades and from everyone who have seen the say are amazing . I am right with you when saying the bar is set to low . I remember when we were competing with the best and expect to do so again . Nothing else should be accepted . Simple as that.

 

[qdawgg]

Why stop at top 10. Improve the facilities and aim for top 5 recruiting classes every year.

Football recruiting is not basketball recruiting. We are never getting consistent top 10 classes, ever.