Buyers Remorse?

[phil77]

Why stop at top 10. Improve the facilities and aim for top 5 recruiting classes every year.

Football recruiting is not basketball recruiting. We are never getting consistent top 10 classes, ever.

I keep hearing that but no reason why? Is it location? Is it no high profile coach? Is it the snow? Is it the dome? What is the reason why we can't have classes like that? History?

 

[Upstate]

You also have to take into account that a 2-star Senior can end up much better than that 5-star Frosh, even when that 5-star is a senior.

 

[phil77]

You also have to take into account that a 2-star Senior can end up much better than that 5-star Frosh, even when that 5-star is a senior.

Yes I agree there are flaws in the star system. No system is perfect. There is no way to really predict how a player will mature over the 4 years or how much drive that player has to be great. But in the end most of the teams that get the highest rated classes are the teams that most likely will be competing for conference and national championships. Of course there will be a few teams that break that mostly those come from the QB position.

 

[EastBayCuse]

Better facilities are important but not enough. The lack of fan support at the Dome for football is very evident and that surely hurts recruiting. The fan base needs to turn out to support the program or kids are going to commit elsewhere.

 

[Willy75]

I keep hearing that but no reason why? Is it location? Is it no high profile coach? Is it the snow? Is it the dome? What is the reason why we can't have classes like that? History?

A big part of it is that we are not a 30-50,000 student state school with taxpayer support. If you compare us to the more modest state programs (like most in the ACC) and other private schools we stack up pretty well.

 

[phil77]

A big part of it is that we are not a 30-50,000 student state school with taxpayer support. If you compare us to the more modest state programs (like most in the ACC) and other private schools we stack up pretty well.

Valid argument and I agree. Seems like we can compete at the level of other programs just not in fan support.

 

[GoSU96]

I follow recruiting to see who we get, from where, etc etc. I also like to competing versus bigger programs for recruits, see who a kid has offers from etc. From that end, as far as offers, I don't think there is any comparison from spot 1 through 20 where we are today and where we were 4 years ago. How do I know? It shows on the field. The recruiting has gotten stronger from top to bottom for sure. You can see that our team has gotten bigger, faster, stronger. Unfortunately, I think marrone's NYC efforts would have paid off big this year but we will never know.

Facilities are the number one thing holding the recruiting back IMO and have been for a few years. The perception of the program being a loser has changed more throughout the Northeast than it has locally. Piss poor attendance will never help recruiting, I am not saying it's justified or it isn't, but it's the reality. These things matter, but those of you waiting for 4 and 5 star recruits to flow in because of this new staff, are once again setting yourselves up for a let down. I do think recruiting will improve, but HCSS has to prove his merit on the field first... Plain and simple. That will be a big part of how well we can recruit. Get the Indoor practice facility moving, win some games and it will take off. When I say take off I mean top 40 class, probably where this program is going to top out. Not saying that can'tresult in an ACC championship but if you get out and see what we are competing with it's not an even fight for the most part. Can any of you honestly blame a kid for wanting to go to Tenny rather than Syracuse who resides in Florida?

That says it all.

 

[phil77]

Once again I am not trying to take shots at the program or anything like that. I am just trying to have a good conversation about it. And I am not a star gazer not always caught up in the star system. Just trying to have an adult conversation about it.

 

[CaliCuse]

Once again I am not trying to take shots at the program or anything like that. I am just trying to have a good conversation about it. And I am not a star gazer not always caught up in the star system. Just trying to have an adult conversation about it.

OK what do you want to talk about? You first!

 

[OrangeZone]

facilities and staff continuity; basketball has both. JB has a solid staff and he is a Hall of Fame inductee. In the past, with football, we tried to do it on the cheap. If HCSS gets the support and the pay packages for his assistants and the university does it's best to provide facilities; football will upgrade it's product. I also think that HCSS will offer great appeal to help put fanny's in the seats; with his energy and the way in which he speaks about the program.

 

[qdawgg]

There are a multitude of factors.

In basketball your only recruiting a few kids (or so) each year. Coaches have more time to coddle 10 or so players they would like to sign and then you end up with 2 or 3 really high ranking players and a mix of others. In football your looking at 100 or more recruits every year, probably significantly more than that. They are spread out all over the country, they encompass a lot more positions on the football team. Just the sheer time to evaluate and make first contact with these players is daunting in of itself.

Too many other programs have more money to invest in facilities to wow recruits, money to hire people at all levels to identify, make contact, stay in contact, and help market the program to recruits. We can argue back and forth about our crowds and how or why they don't come, how upset they are that we moved big games to different locations, and all the other b.s. The fact is the crowd at the dome is marginal compared to the top programs. That might be generous. If we want to have a top 10 recruiting class year in and year out we better have a packed *cking dome when 5 star kids come to visit when it's cold as hell outside. We don't. Other programs do. Chandler Jones this year when asked by a reporter something about the SU fans responded that "we didn't really have a lot of fans". That pretty much sums it up.

I realize other schools like Ped St., ND, Michigan, Ohio State, etc. don't play in the south but geography will always have some impact on getting certain players that want to play in what they believe is a more desirable location. Now, if your going to play in Michigan maybe you wouldn't mind as much when there are 100K fans at the game. We've lost players each of the last few years who seemed to want to go to southern climates.

These are just a few variables. None of these are program killers but people are expecting top 10 classes, you better have a real special program with lots of potential "assets" for recruits if your going to haul in top 10 classes year after year after year. We don't and there is nothing wrong with that, we can still be competitive. There are few programs that have the ability to recruit at that level consistently.

 

[phil77]

There are a multitude of factors.

In basketball your only recruiting a few kids (or so) each year. Coaches have more time to coddle 10 or so players they would like to sign and then you end up with 2 or 3 really high ranking players and a mix of others. In football your looking at 100 or more recruits every year, probably significantly more than that. They are spread out all over the country, they encompass a lot more positions on the football team. Just the sheer time to evaluate and make first contact with these players is daunting in of itself.

Too many other programs have more money to invest in facilities to wow recruits, money to hire people at all levels to identify, make contact, stay in contact, and help market the program. We can argue back and forth about our crowds and how or why they don't come, how upset they are that we moved big games to different locations, and all the other b.s. The fact is the crowd at the dome is marginal compared to the top programs. That might be generous. If we want to have a top 10 recruiting class year in and year out we better have a packed *cking dome when 5 star kids come to visit when it's cold as hell outside. We don't. Other programs do. Chandler Jones this year when asked by a reporter something about the SU fans responded that "we didn't really have a lot of fans". That pretty much sums it up.

I realize other schools like Ped St., ND, Michigan, Ohio State, etc. don't play in the south but geography will always have some impact on getting certain players that want to play in what they believe is a more desirable location. Now, if your going to play in Michigan maybe you wouldn't mind as much when there are 100K fans at the game. We've lost players each of the last few years who seemed to want to go to southern climates.

These are just a few variables. None of these are program killers but people are expecting top 10 classes, you better have a real special program with lots of potential "assets" for recruits if your going to haul in top 10 classes year after year after year. We don't and there is nothing wrong with that, we can still be competitive. There are few programs that have the ability to recruit at that level consistently.

Great reply thanks...

I agree with most if not all of your post...

There are certain things that need to be done IMO to help the perception of our "crowd" or lack of fan support. For 1 we have to use our basketball program as a tool to show recruits what it is like when the dome is packed. Like have a Junior Day at one of our big time games. Perfect examples is this months G-Town game. The new coaching staff needs to get as many kids as possible there on that day. IMO it is vital for next years recruiting class. The atmosphere that day will be second to none. And Carmelo Anthony is getting his jersey retired. And while he may be a basketball player he will still be a big time star to the football players. Maybe bring in past players like McNabb, Freeney and Harrison among others for that game. And maybe just maybe those juniors will just happen to bump into those 4 players. I do not feel we use our basketball crowds to our advantage in terms of showing the incoming football players what the atmosphere could be in the dome.

 

[billsin01]

Does this question matter if the staff doesn't use "stars"?

Recruiting is as much about finding kids that fit as it is finding the most talented kids. If you recruit a MLB that is 6'0'' 215 that can run a 4.5 40 do you take him over a kid that is 6'4'' 245 that runs a 5.0 40? Depends what type of defense you are running, no? It's really all about fit. Our staff did a great job at that.

... And kids who arrive and stay for four-ish years. Numbers and grades are by far the least sexy part of recruiting but are, arguably, the most important part.

 

[billsin01]

Great reply thanks...

I agree with most if not all of your post...

There are certain things that need to be done IMO to help the perception of our "crowd" or lack of fan support. For 1 we have to use our basketball program as a tool to show recruits what it is like when the dome is packed. Like have a Junior Day at one of our big time games. Perfect examples is this months G-Town game. The new coaching staff needs to get as many kids as possible there on that day. IMO it is vital for next years recruiting class. The atmosphere that day will be second to none. And Carmelo Anthony is getting his jersey retired. And while he may be a basketball player he will still be a big time star to the football players. Maybe bring in past players like McNabb, Freeney and Harrison among others for that game. And maybe just maybe those juniors will just happen to bump into those 4 players. I do not feel we use our basketball crowds to our advantage in terms of showing the incoming football players what the atmosphere could be in the dome.

Yeah, I think Go was suggesting that you don't want to bring a bunch of juniors in cold to see crappy facilities, but if facilities are a big part of a decision I'm not sure we win very much anyway. However, having a really cool weekend at a school and seeing 30K+ going nuts at a hoops game is something very few, if any other schools can offer. Absolutely have to play that card, IMO.

 

[billsin01]

facilities and staff continuity; basketball has both. JB has a solid staff and he is a Hall of Fame inductee. In the past, with football, we tried to do it on the cheap. If HCSS gets the support and the pay packages for his assistants and the university does it's best to provide facilities; football will upgrade it's product. I also think that HCSS will offer great appeal to help put fanny's in the seats; with his energy and the way in which he speaks about the program.

Staff continuity is a thing of the past in many ways in college football. There are exceptions but assistants come and go every year it seems.

 

[phil77]

Yeah, I think Go was suggesting that you don't want to bring a bunch of juniors in cold to see crappy facilities, but if facilities are a big part of a decision I'm not sure we win very much anyway. However, having a really cool weekend at a school and seeing 30K+ going nuts at a hoops game is something very few, if any other schools can offer. Absolutely have to play that card, IMO.

But if there are ground breaking the new facilities in 3 months then set up a 3-D virtual tour of the new facilities for the new recruits to watch. They have 3 weeks to do it. That shouldn't be hard to do or pull off in that time frame. I am sure there are already video's out there. Walk them over show them where it will be. Tell them there class will be the first class in said new facilities and so on... The staff need to sell the kids on the future facilities if it is true that ground breaking is happening in about 3 months.

 

[billsin01]

But if there are ground breaking the new facilities in 3 months then set up a 3-D virtual tour of the new facilities for the new recruits to watch. They have 3 weeks to do it. That shouldn't be hard to do or pull off in that time frame. I am sure there are already video's out there. Walk them over show them where it will be. Tell them there class will be the first class in said new facilities and so on... The staff need to sell the kids on the future facilities if it is true that ground breaking is happening in about 3 months.

Oh, I don't disagree. I was just saying I doubt we'll outpace many schools in the facilities race but we certainly can bring them in on a really cool weekend of hoops. That has to be better than a random weekend in the spring.

 

[ClkWrkOrange]

Better facilities are important but not enough. The lack of fan support at the Dome for football is very evident and that surely hurts recruiting. The fan base needs to turn out to support the program or kids are going to commit elsewhere.

This hasn't always been a problem.We used to get nice crowds,have ranked recruiting classes and some very good seasons.The problem was when things were going well the guys in charge,instead of trying to attract more fans, seemed to be doing everything in their power to rid themselves of the fans they did have.Alot of people around here got the message that the school didn't really care about or support the football program.If SU doesn't care,why should they?They're going to have to show alot of the locals that THEY care before people start coming back,imo.

 

[Bayside44]

My question is why was the basketball team all the sudden turn it around and be a top 10 team year end and year out?

Jim Boeheim. Hall of Fame coaches don't grow on trees.

 

[Bayside44]

This isn't pointed towards you but it is this inferiority complex that many seem to have is a bit annoying . I feel we can do much better then top out at a top 40 recruiting class . It was just over ten years ago we started the season at what pre season #5? That's 10 years, this isn't going back to the time of Ernie Davis and our national title . Sure it was a tough 10 years with a horrible hire and some how we allowed ourselves to fall so far behind in the facility arms race . But all the way up to 2000 this program had great fan support and year in and year out was a top 25 team. If we can continue to improve on facilities I have no doubt we will once again be a top 25 team on a consistent basis. Being in the acc and being one of the only big time football teams in the northeast should allow us to attract quality kids . I may be overly optimistic about next season but with our current roster I fully see us gettig off to a great start in the acc which will only continue to spring board us back to the top . HCSS and the staff he has assembled seem more fit for the college game and I can see them attracting some very quality classes . Now the only thing we need is to get people back into the dome, which will come with wins.

Top 40 means yearly bowls. We were last ranked preseason 5 or 6 in 1993. And finished 6-4.

 

[kingtidge]

This hasn't always been a problem.We used to get nice crowds,have ranked recruiting classes and some very good seasons.The problem was when things were going well the guys in charge,instead of trying to attract more fans, seemed to be doing everything in their power to rid themselves of the fans they did have.Alot of people around here got the message that the school didn't really care about or support the football program.If SU doesn't care,why should they?They're going to have to show alot of the locals that THEY care before people start coming back,imo.

Not to mention a lot of those locals will never come back...

They are either retired somewhere in Florida / down south now and/or have moved elsewhere to find a job after 2 decades of industrial and economic downsizing in the greater syracuse area...

 

[anomander]

Top 40 means yearly bowls. We were last ranked preseason 5 or 6 in 1993. And finished 6-4.

wow my memory is shot. i guess 20 years is a lot longer then 10. i think we have may have been pre season #10 in 96 then?

 

[OrangeZone]

Staff continuity is a thing of the past in many ways in college football. There are exceptions but assistants come and go every year it seems.

with the top 20+ programs you will find that the assistants stay longer and if they move it's for upward mobility. in the past here, many assistants moved laterally; same spot at another school. Recruiting is a lengthy process. Look at how long Coach McDonald was ercruiting some of these players. Recruiting is a relationship business.

 

[billsin01]

with the top 20+ programs you will find that the assistants stay longer and if they move it's for upward mobility. in the past here, many assistants moved laterally; same spot at another school. Recruiting is a lengthy process. Look at how long Coach McDonald was ercruiting some of these players. Recruiting is a relationship business.

Absolutely, I don't disagree with that. But top 20 schools, generally, have much bigger budgets for coaches, thus the continuity. They're also winning more meaning those head coaches are more secure in their jobs.

At SU, a really good assistant is going to have opportunities to make more at similar level schools. He may also look like a better recruiter at another school due to conference affiliation and/or facilities. And head coaches switch things up as well -- DM said he was separated at birth from Rob Spence and he had tired of him literally 10 months later. Others bit the dust along the way as well.

 

[ClkWrkOrange]

Not to mention a lot of those locals will never come back...

2 decades of industrial and economic downsizing in the greater syracuse area.

Agreed.This^^^^^ part is a HUGE problem.