Can anyone tell me what just happened in St. Louis a few minutes ago?

[OrangeXtreme]

From 1967-76 you couldn't even dunk during a game.

 

[tbonezone]

hey was a warning issued and ignored ? cuz then maybe just maybe it makes a little more sense to me. if not total screwjob.

 

[Jasoncuse]

Did the Nebraska coach get ejected tonight? And if so what was it about? I only saw bits. I saw him at the scorers table pointing and then I saw him walking down the tunnel? What the heck happened ?

You'll never guess who tossed him either

 

[Cowtown]

I witnessed this at a University of Central Florida game vs Valparaiso during the regular season. The score was 2 or 3 to 0 with 20 minutes left in the 1st. It was certainly weird, but hey, the refs need simple rules to follow.

The refs don't write the rule book.

 

[Cowtown]

And while we're on the subject ...

p. 94: Section 4 Class B Technical Infractions. Article 1.

A technical foul shall be assessed to a player, or a substitute, for the following infractions:
...
e. A team member dunking or attempting to dunk a dead ball before or during the game, or during any intermission.

http://ncaambb.arbitersports.com/Groups/104883/Library/files/BR15.pdf

Btw, there are over 130 pages ...

 

[tptcuse]

The refs don't write the rule book.

True. But if it is true that this kid dunked (and the video looks like it was a pretty feeble dunk) at 19:58, rather than at 20:00, that is a little too proactive, from my non-FIBA-reffing perspective.

 

[Cowtown]

True. But if it is true that this kid dunked (and the video looks like it was a pretty feeble dunk) at 19:58, rather than at 20:00, that is a little too proactive, from my non-FIBA-reffing perspective.

I don't disagree. However, there's more than meets the eye going on. The intent of the no warm-up dunk rule is to save the equipment, and prevent injuries.

The officials are evaluated by an assigner/evaluator after every game, and if they were remiss in not assessing a T, they'd get a negative mark on their evaluation. It's not their fault the players and coaches don't know the rules. What would happen if the ref went over and warned the kid, and didn't assess a T, but the opposing coach wants one called. Then he says, "So tell me, what other rules are you going to choose not to enforce?" and we start with a rhubarb on national TV in the Big Dance. Then later after a no-call, the coach says, "Is that another rule you're not enforcing?" Do you T him for that? And then what happens when he goes nuts for getting a T there when you didn't call one on the dunk? You do yourself no favors relaxing on things like this.

My local HS athletic association allows warm-up dunks. It caused too many problems with pedantic coaches insisting a T be called when it would happen, even if we didn't see it. Such as, we were talking to the scorer's table (because they use HS kids) and a player dunks; or, we were talking with the other coach about something; or traffic was really heavy and we didn't get to the game until 5 minutes before the start, and some whiney-assed coach would run over and cry about a warmup dunk before we even had our coats off. Has anyone here been in a gym when the backboard was broken during warmups because stupid kids just keep whaling on the rim? I have. We had to go play in the auxiliary gym, and nobody was happy. The fans were bitching at us because it was supposedly our fault.

 

[tptcuse]

I don't disagree. However, there's more than meets the eye going on. The intent of the no warm-up dunk rule is to save the equipment, and prevent injuries.

The officials are evaluated by an assigner/evaluator after every game, and if they were remiss in not assessing a T, they'd get a negative mark on their evaluation. It's not their fault the players and coaches don't know the rules. What would happen if the ref went over and warned the kid, and didn't assess a T, but the opposing coach wants one called. Then he says, "So tell me, what other rules are you going to choose not to enforce?" and we start with a rhubarb on national TV in the Big Dance. Then later after a no-call, the coach says, "Is that another rule you're not enforcing?" Do you T him for that? And then what happens when he goes nuts for getting a T there when you didn't call one on the dunk? You do yourself no favors relaxing on things like this.

My local HS athletic association allows warm-up dunks. It caused too many problems with pedantic coaches insisting a T be called when it would happen, even if we didn't see it. Such as, we were talking to the scorer's table (because they use HS kids) and a player dunks; or, we were talking with the other coach about something; or traffic was really heavy and we didn't get to the game until 5 minutes before the start, and some whiney-assed coach would run over and cry about a warmup dunk before we even had our coats off. Has anyone here been in a gym when the backboard was broken during warmups because stupid kids just keep whaling on the rim? I have. We had to go play in the auxiliary gym, and nobody was happy. The fans were bitching at us because it was supposedly our fault.

Here I hoped my post would convey the fact that I understand that a rule is a rule, thought it was a little strictly enforced (19:58) in this instance, and my use of the "cool" emoticon would demonstrate that I was lightheartedly teasing you a bit. I actually don't care that this was called, and would have loved it to be called against a team like Georgetown...oh wait, they are not in any tournaments!

 

[OttoinGrotto]

You'll never guess who tossed him either

Expect the unexpected?

 

[pulaski74]

I don't disagree. However, there's more than meets the eye going on. The intent of the no warm-up dunk rule is to save the equipment, and prevent injuries.

The officials are evaluated by an assigner/evaluator after every game, and if they were remiss in not assessing a T, they'd get a negative mark on their evaluation. It's not their fault the players and coaches don't know the rules. What would happen if the ref went over and warned the kid, and didn't assess a T, but the opposing coach wants one called. Then he says, "So tell me, what other rules are you going to choose not to enforce?" and we start with a rhubarb on national TV in the Big Dance. Then later after a no-call, the coach says, "Is that another rule you're not enforcing?" Do you T him for that? And then what brokehappens when he goes nuts for getting a T there when you didn't call one on the dunk? You do yourself no favors relaxing on things like this.

My local HS athletic association allows warm-up dunks. It caused too many problems with pedantic coaches insisting a T be called when it would happen, even if we didn't see it. Such as, we were talking to the scorer's table (because they use HS kids) and a player dunks; or, we were talking with the other coach about something; or traffic was really heavy and we didn't get to the game until 5 minutes before the start, and some whiney-assed coach would run over and cry about a warmup dunk before we even had our coats off. Has anyone here been in a gym when the backboard was broken during warmups because stupid kids just keep whaling on the rim? I have. We had to go play in the auxiliary gym, and nobody was happy. The fans were bitching at us because it was supposedly our fault.

Yea, I see your point but there are a few rules that are overlooked, I really don't want to press on but I'm sure the officials don't make that call w/out someone calling them out, and they had to make it. like the judge told me along time ago" you broke the law as said but I feel it's the spirit of the law thats allowing me to drop the charges" yes u r right by the rule book but who would call someone out on this? Cal and his staff thats the most likely whiney ass coaches. Don't know, just something about that bothers me. Very much serious, if I were a coach and did not start that beginning of the game, I personally would have told my kid to missem both and see how they like that. I guess I'm making something out of nothing but for some reason( to me ) " that ain't right"

 

[Cowtown]

Here I hoped my post would convey the fact that I understand that a rule is a rule, thought it was a little strictly enforced (19:58) in this instance, and my use of the "cool" emoticon would demonstrate that I was lightheartedly teasing you a bit. I actually don't care that this was called, and would have loved it to be called against a team like Georgetown...oh wait, they are not in any tournaments!

Hey, I understood where you were coming from, tptgeek. I wasn't being defensive, or taking anything personally, was just discussing the territory a little further, that's all. No umbrage taken nor intended toward you or anyone. Conversational nuances are often lost on these things.

 

[lincolncuse]

It's a rule but my lord. The officiating across the board has been unreal. I'm surprised we haven't seen a T on a coach yet for being out of the box. That's a rule to. Did the Nebraska coach get ejected tonight? And if so what was it about? I only saw bits. I saw him at the scorers table pointing and then I saw him walking down the tunnel? What the heck happened ?

2nd technical after he tried to alert the scorers table that the shot clock had not started. Assessed a T for being out of the coaches box.

Why doesn't that ever happen to Dixon or buzz williams?

 

[orangedave]

I don't disagree. However, there's more than meets the eye going on. The intent of the no warm-up dunk rule is to save the equipment, and prevent injuries.

The officials are evaluated by an assigner/evaluator after every game, and if they were remiss in not assessing a T, they'd get a negative mark on their evaluation. It's not their fault the players and coaches don't know the rules. What would happen if the ref went over and warned the kid, and didn't assess a T, but the opposing coach wants one called. Then he says, "So tell me, what other rules are you going to choose not to enforce?" and we start with a rhubarb on national TV in the Big Dance. Then later after a no-call, the coach says, "Is that another rule you're not enforcing?" Do you T him for that? And then what happens when he goes nuts for getting a T there when you didn't call one on the dunk? You do yourself no favors relaxing on things like this.

My local HS athletic association allows warm-up dunks. It caused too many problems with pedantic coaches insisting a T be called when it would happen, even if we didn't see it. Such as, we were talking to the scorer's table (because they use HS kids) and a player dunks; or, we were talking with the other coach about something; or traffic was really heavy and we didn't get to the game until 5 minutes before the start, and some whiney-assed coach would run over and cry about a warmup dunk before we even had our coats off. Has anyone here been in a gym when the backboard was broken during warmups because stupid kids just keep whaling on the rim? I have. We had to go play in the auxiliary gym, and nobody was happy. The fans were bitching at us because it was supposedly our fault.

Thank you. I always enjoy reading your perspective on things like this (even tho I don't always agree).
We need more informative and unemotional posts like yours.

 

[dollarbill44]

2nd technical after he tried to alert the scorers table that the shot clock had not started. Assessed a T for being out of the coaches box.

Why doesn't that ever happen to Dixon or buzz williams?

Wow. That's ridiculous. Shaka Smart was standing in front of the ref at one point last night in the half court and no call. I guess you can go out of the box if its onto the court during play but, God forbid, you move towards the scorer's table!

 

[Cusefan95]

Nebraska coach gets a second T and ejected for being outside the box, which is often overlooked (see every single Pitt, Marquette, VCU game). Does the fact it got called yesterday put pressure on officials to start calling it for the rest of the tourney - or does everyone continue to do what they've always done and ignore the rule?

That call pretty much sums up my issue with officials - the guy falls back on the coaching box and the Nebraska coach violated the rule, so it was a 'good call'. I am 100% certain we could find 23 games that official did this year where a coach left the box and didn't get a T...but this one he decided to call. All officials selectively enforce the rules - every single one.

 

[BuffCuse]

I saw at least a few instances in this years games where the ref was motioning to the coaches to get back in the box when the coach wasn't even out on the floor or anything so much less eggregious than many other instances we have all seen. Maybe they are purposefully trying to emphasize that rule a bit more during the tourney. Still seems more than a little questionable to call it in an instance where a coach is just trying to alert a scorer abut a clock malfunction though.

 

[Cowtown]

2nd technical after he tried to alert the scorers table that the shot clock had not started. Assessed a T for being out of the coaches box.

Why can't that ever happen to Dixon or buzz williams?

I didn't see the game, but here's what I found. First, let's acknowledge the article describes Miles as "demonstrative."

"Hess provided a statement after the game in which he acknowledged that prior to the second technical foul call, "there was a shot clock error that both the shot clock operator and officials did not notice. The error should have been noticed and could have been corrected."

Hess also said that Miles was assessed the second technical foul "due to the parameters of rule 10, section 3, article 2, items E and F."

Those items pertain to circumstances when a coach objects to an official's decision by "rising from the bench or using gestures," or when he incites "undesirable crowd reactions."​

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/2014/03/21/nebraska-coach-miles-ejected/6700465/

Now, Hess is not my favorite guy, but that's just me. A few things are at work here: first, Miles had already been T'd for his sideline actions, I'm willing to bet he'd been fairly animated over other foul calls he didn't like. Unless this first T was for a spectacular outburst, I'd also bet he'd been warned prior to it.

Then, according to Miles, when he saw a shot clock issue, he ran toward the table and was trying to direct the ref's attention to it, at the same time a foul was called. The ref turns around and sees him waving his arms and yelling while out of the box, and "boom goes the dynamite." Bad timing? Sure, but a head coach at that level has to be under better control. Just because his assistant thought he saw something doesn't mean that's what happened. And even if it did, two seconds on the shot clock is not worth risking getting the punt over. Hess didn't have to T him, but unfortunately Miles helped expose himself. He had to know he was on thin ice.

Obviously I wasn't there in the 'pre-game,' but I'll bet a dollar to a pig's patoot they talked about how to handle coaches, and if Miles had a reputation as being "demonstrative," you know his name came up. For if the evaluator isn't there in the meeting, the crew chief will have from him a list of points of emphasis. They all get the same notes, in the name of trying to be consistent from game to game.

Finally, a large part of what causes these incidents to occur is the pressure on the officials on one of America's largest stages, but also to advance to the next round; or even to get a leg up on being invited back next year. Remember, (just like with the teams) with each successive round, half of the officials go home. Getting a Final Four appearance on your résumé is a huge boost. You're much more attractive to the top paying associations, and also it gets you hired to work at officials' clinics, or, if it be your inclination, to try to move on to the NBA.

 

[Cowtown]

Nebraska coach gets a second T and ejected for being outside the box, which is often overlooked (see every single Pitt, Marquette, VCU game). Does the fact it got called yesterday put pressure on officials to start calling it for the rest of the tourney - or does everyone continue to do what they've always done and ignore the rule?

That call pretty much sums up my issue with officials - the guy falls back on the coaching box and the Nebraska coach violated the rule, so it was a 'good call'. I am 100% certain we could find 23 games that official did this year where a coach left the box and didn't get a T...but this one he decided to call. All officials selectively enforce the rules - every single one.

Okay, here's the thing with the box. In the first place, it's not absolute. A lot of people seem to want to think it is (because it makes it simpler for them, I guess). But the reality is that it's not.

If you're a coach administering to your team - players, asst. coaches, etc - you can be out of the box all night long, within reason.

If you're questioning the officials on calls you disagree with, you better be inside the box. That gives you a little more latitude, but if you go too far with motions you make and/or things you say to them, you can still be T'd up for it. Yes, even if you're in the box.

The ref is not required to give a warning to a coach outside the box, but may do so if in his judgment it's warranted.

If you're respectfully addressing the official in a room temperature voice, and not showing him up by being animated, yelling, making extreme faces, waving your arms, etc., you can be out of the box.

Asst. coaches don't get to say "Boo" either way, regardless of whether they're in the box.

If you're not questioning the ref's judgment, but are still talking with him - say, to let him know you're going to run a gadget play, or alerting him to an injury, or some blood on a uniform that had to be changed, etc - you can be out of the box.

If you've already been T'd for ragging on the refs, you better damn sure stay in the box.

And finally, individual leagues/associations can have their own guidelines about how to address the issues attendant to the coaches box. Most are a little more lenient during their own league play. But prior to the beginning of the NCAA tourney, guidelines are sent out to all participants. That's what AD's and SID's, etc., are for.

 

[Kevind13]

Nebraska coach gets a second T and ejected for being outside the box, which is often overlooked (see every single Pitt, Marquette, VCU game). Does the fact it got called yesterday put pressure on officials to start calling it for the rest of the tourney - or does everyone continue to do what they've always done and ignore the rule?

That call pretty much sums up my issue with officials - the guy falls back on the coaching box and the Nebraska coach violated the rule, so it was a 'good call'. I am 100% certain we could find 23 games that official did this year where a coach left the box and didn't get a T...but this one he decided to call. All officials selectively enforce the rules - every single one.

^^^^^This

 

[RoysRunts]

From 1967-76 you couldn't even dunk during a game.

Yes when players could shoot from 10-15 Feet,Best thing that ever happened to Bill Walton, The Lou Alcindor Rule

 

[SWC75]

From 1967-76 you couldn't even dunk during a game.

The rule dates from that period. Al McGuire hated the no-dunk rule and had his team dunking during the warm-ups to protest. So they made a rule against that. I'm surprised it wasn't rescinded when dunks became legal again.

 

[Cowtown]

Thank you. I always enjoy reading your perspective on things like this (even tho I don't always agree).
We need more informative and unemotional posts like yours.

Thanks, OD, I appreciate the thought. It's fine that we don't always agree, for the TV gives a viewpoint that's different from the ref's. And I know we miss some things. Some posters feel I'm supporting or justifying refs or calls they don't like, when what I'm really trying is to just give a different perspective based on some experience I have had. It's meant to be food for thought or discussion. Tx again.