Can we all recognize now that the offense is (and has been) a problem?

[Czar]

There have been some of us that have been complaining about the anemic offence and how ineffective it's gotten the past several years but a lot of people ignored it since we were winning and rolling. Well, we don't have that excuse anymore. So can we have an honest discussion about what kind of offense we've been running the past few years, why Cooney running baseline to baseline seems to be the basic starting set, and why we're running ISO's when we do not have a single player good enough to warrant getting ISO calls?

 

[longislandcuse]

I honestly think our biggest offensive problem recently is forwards who can't shoot the 3 ball.

Last year, Fair and Grant.

This year, Roberson.

You're forwards need to be able to shoot or the best you can aspire to be is an anemic offense who, even if good, is subject to an early round tourney exit.

 

[kjb120]

I honestly think our biggest offensive problem recently is forwards who can't shoot the 3 ball.

Last year, Fair and Grant.

This year, Roberson.

You're forwards need to be able to shoot or the best you can aspire to be is an anemic offense who, even if good, is subject to an early round tourney exit.

Couldn't agree more, hopefully BJ or tyler Lydon could provide some outside shooting from the forward spot the way guys like Nichols and Southerland did.

 

[longislandcuse]

Couldn't agree more, hopefully BJ or tyler Lydon could provide some outside shooting from the forward spot the way guys like Nichols and Southerland did.

I already think our best lineup is G-Cooney-BJJ-McCullough-Rak. Replace them with Kaleb and Roberson and you take out two decent shooters with guys who can't. I just don't see Robersons skill set being one that can be involved in a good D-1 offense. He's not good enough elsewhere to make up for not being able to stretch the defense. The result, the shooters who are out there get box and one'd and our offense is a stagnant, clustered mess of players all trying to operate in the same area (inside the perimeter).

Kaleb is still an unknown. Roberson's skill set seems to be pretty well outlined and it doesnt include 3 point range, because of that id start BJJ.

 

[Jack Hall]

There have been some of us that have been complaining about the anemic offence and how ineffective it's gotten the past several years but a lot of people ignored it since we were winning and rolling. Well, we don't have that excuse anymore. So can we have an honest discussion about what kind of offense we've been running the past few years, why Cooney running baseline to baseline seems to be the basic starting set, and why we're running ISO's when we do not have a single player good enough to warrant getting ISO calls?

Pretty clear HOFer JB is a defensive minded coach, not an offensive one. When we havent gotten out and run we havent been a really good offensive team since 2010. And even that team, when Arinze went out, we struggled mightily against Butler, ie when we couldnt get in transition against Butler, it was clear we were going to struggle to score. Then in 2012, same thing , we lose Fab (who was not nearly as important to our offense as Arinze was in 2010), same thing. Ie when we couldnt get out in transition in elite 8 vs OSU, it was clear it was going to be a struggle, it was very difficult for me to watch us lose to OSU in elite 8 and have our half court offense be completely predictable (ie all iso drives). And yes we didnt have Fab but Fab was not a big offensive option that yr. even in 2013, the offense, especially against Mich in FF was a complete struggle. I really believe if JB wins title number two, it will be on the strength of his zone defense, and the offense is passable. There is a good chance the great offensive days of the 80s will not return. The great offense even in the 90s was sporadic (ie the 96 title game run) and likewise in the 2000s (with 2003 obviously being an exception). Again imo if JB wins one more title, it will be on the back of his zone defense and hopefully there will be an uptick in our offense (with that uptick likely being some skilled offensive players vs an uptick in the offensive schemes).

 

[STEVEHOLT]

When you recruit players / body types tailored to making an effective zone defense, you are going to sacrifice some on the offensive side. The types of players that make our zone great aren't necessarily the types that handle and shoot well.

 

[longislandcuse]

Pretty clear HOFer JB is a defensive minded coach, not an offensive one. When we havent gotten out and run we havent been a really good offensive team since 2010. And even that team, when Arinze went out, we struggled mightily against Butler, ie when we couldnt get in transition against Butler, it was clear we were going to struggle to score. Then in 2012, same thing , we lose Fab (who was not nearly as important to our offense as Arinze was in 2010), same thing. Ie when we couldnt get out in transition in elite 8 vs OSU, it was clear it was going to be a struggle, it was very difficult for me to watch us lose to OSU in elite 8 and have our half court offense be completely predictable (ie all iso drives). And yes we didnt have Fab but Fab was not a big offensive option that yr. even in 2013, the offense, especially against Mich in FF was a complete struggle. I really believe if JB wins title number two, it will be on the strength of his zone defense, and the offense is passable. There is a good chance the great offensive days of the 80s will not return. The great offense even in the 90s was sporadic (ie the 96 title game run) and likewise in the 2000s (with 2003 obviously being an exception). Again imo if JB wins one more title, it will be on the back of his zone defense and hopefully there will be an uptick in our offense (with that uptick likely being some skilled offensive players vs an uptick in the offensive schemes).

I really hope he doesn't need another Carmelo to win a title. That's not exactly confidence inspiring. He clearly knows you can't win on defense alone, I think we see that with this next recruiting class...finally.

 

[Jack Hall]

When you recruit players / body types tailored to making an effective zone defense, you are going to sacrifice some on the offensive side. The types of players that make our zone great aren't necessarily the types that handle and shoot well.

That is likely true but the schemes need to get a little bit better. As Popovich loves to say with his champion Spurs, the ball shouldnt stick. Too often w SU, the ball sticks. Ie we dont make the extra pass and just do one on one

 

[Jack Hall]

I really hope he doesn't need another Carmelo to win a title. That's not exactly confidence inspiring. He clearly knows you can't win on defense alone, I think we see that with this next recruiting class...finally.

That is what i am starting to think, we may need a Malachi or a Bryant (if he comes) to have just an amazing offensive season. Jbs schemes imo are skewed toward individuals excelling in iso, even if they get doubled and have to then pass out of it. Similar to Melo kicking out to Gmac against KU for some of those 3s in first half...

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Pretty clear HOFer JB is a defensive minded coach, not an offensive one. When we havent gotten out and run we havent been a really good offensive team since 2010. And even that team, when Arinze went out, we struggled mightily against Butler, ie when we couldnt get in transition against Butler, it was clear we were going to struggle to score. Then in 2012, same thing , we lose Fab (who was not nearly as important to our offense as Arinze was in 2010), same thing. Ie when we couldnt get out in transition in elite 8 vs OSU, it was clear it was going to be a struggle, it was very difficult for me to watch us lose to OSU in elite 8 and have our half court offense be completely predictable (ie all iso drives). And yes we didnt have Fab but Fab was not a big offensive option that yr. even in 2013, the offense, especially against Mich in FF was a complete struggle. I really believe if JB wins title number two, it will be on the strength of his zone defense, and the offense is passable. There is a good chance the great offensive days of the 80s will not return. The great offense even in the 90s was sporadic (ie the 96 title game run) and likewise in the 2000s (with 2003 obviously being an exception). Again imo if JB wins one more title, it will be on the back of his zone defense and hopefully there will be an uptick in our offense (with that uptick likely being some skilled offensive players vs an uptick in the offensive schemes).

Which is really interesting as we were not a very good defensive team tonight. They cut us up. Not good at all.

 

[Cuse'91]

Can a 70yr old dog learn or relearn a new trick?
This team screams Man to Man! Play 9 players and use a freakin rotation!

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Can a 70yr old dog learn or relearn a new trick?
This team screams Man to Man! Play 9 players and use a freakin rotation!

Good luck with that.

 

[SoBeCuse]

Which is really interesting as we were not a very good defensive team tonight. They cut us up. Not good at all.

True but we couldn't keep pace. They were giving us chances to take the lead or cut into the lead in the 1H. Just pathetic offense, execution, structure, etc.

 

[ORANGEsPHK]

I agree that our offense wasn't that great last year. We won games but we weren't an offensive juggernaut by any means. We played a slow tempo and deliberate game with Ennis (which, by the way I did not enjoy watching) and we made good plays, thanks a lot to Ennis' control of the game.

I also agree that JB recruits to play the zone well and we've had really good defenses but, as already mentioned, the offense suffered. Now, whether our offense suffers because of the recruits we get, or because we try to perfect the zone so much in practice instead of developing good offensive sets, I can't say. But the poor offensive output by our team the last two years, with average scorers, seems to indicate lack of development on the offensive side. When you get a stud offensive player that can take over, this is not a problem, but we really haven't had that recently.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

True but we couldn't keep pace. They were giving us chances to take the lead or cut into the lead in the 1H. Just pathetic offense, execution, structure, etc.

True. They missed a ton of shots. We aren't very good.

 

[Jack Hall]

I really hope he doesn't need another Carmelo to win a title. That's not exactly confidence inspiring. He clearly knows you can't win on defense alone, I think we see that with this next recruiting class...finally.

And i do believe if McC came back next season, he could have a Melo type season. We can always hope...

 

[Coach Orange]

That is what i am starting to think, we may need a Malachi or a Bryant (if he comes) to have just an amazing offensive season. Jbs schemes imo are skewed toward individuals excelling in iso, even if they get doubled and have to then pass out of it. Similar to Melo kicking out to Gmac against KU for some of those 3s in first half...

Coach Boeheim talks about his philosophy in his Syracuse Transition and Early Offense DVD. He states that he runs "simple" offensive sets designed to put the ball into the hands of his best player. The goal is to isolate that player in spots where he can make plays, whether that means scoring or passing out of doubles.

Of course, problems can stem from not having a player who can truly excel in these iso situations. Likewise, the offense will falter if players can't hit shots when the star player passes to them.

One major flaw with Coach Boeheim's offense is that there aren't many options built into these sets if the defense takes away the first look. The team often flows into a series of pick and rolls. These secondary options are largely ineffective due to bad spacing because the players are freelancing. They often rush to set and use the ball screen, not allowing their teammates to recognize the situation and react accordingly. In addition, the players rarely set off-the-ball screens once the initial option of the play has been run. This makes it easy for the defense to help on dribble drives and post-ups. It also makes it easy to face guard a player.

Good offenses move the ball and move players. This action forces the defense to move, making help defense difficult. Having more ball and player movement in the team's offensive design would help the players find easier shots if they are patient. Easier shots tend to go through the hoop more often.

 

[longislandcuse]

Can a 70yr old dog learn or relearn a new trick?
This team screams Man to Man! Play 9 players and use a freakin rotation!

I know we won't play man but watching them last night, I thought the same thing.

 

[SBU72]

Good luck with that.

He's a relatively newbe, only 600 posts. Probably wasn't around the last time the team tried to play m-2-m.

 

[SBU72]

There have been some of us that have been complaining about the anemic offence and how ineffective it's gotten the past several years but a lot of people ignored it since we were winning and rolling. Well, we don't have that excuse anymore. So can we have an honest discussion about what kind of offense we've been running the past few years, why Cooney running baseline to baseline seems to be the basic starting set, and why we're running ISO's when we do not have a single player good enough to warrant getting ISO calls?

When you watch guys like Bilas break down JB's offense, you get to appreciate that it really is pretty good. the basic problem is not putting the ball in the basket. Shooting 30% in the 1st half and most of the shots well inside the arc and even in the key, won't win many games.

 

[longislandcuse]

When you watch guys like Bilas break down JB's offense, you get to appreciate that it really is pretty good. the basic problem is not putting the ball in the basket. Shooting 30% in the 1st half and most of the shots well inside the arc and even in the key, won't win many games.

Well last night a majority of our offense was Kaleb Joseph running into the middle of nowhere or Pablo Prigioni'ing, Roberson running into people bigger than him and throwing up crazy shots, Rak front rimming bunnies and Cooney shooting like Cooney. That's a recipe for awful offense.

 

[JKinPhilly]

Terrible shooting does not equate to a bad offensive scheme. Guys had looks, they just can't put the ball in the basket.

 

[igor]

there's one point all of u pollyannas refuse to realize. because we don't play man we never can get better going against it. . we do play man in practice, but unfortunely its jb's interpretation of it, and u all; remember that he can't beat le Moyne.

 

[Coach Orange]

Terrible shooting does not equate to a bad offensive scheme. Guys had looks, they just can't put the ball in the basket.

True, but many of those looks were not really high percentage shots (G's clanked dunk aside). Many of the shots were rushed or taken before Cal's defense was forced to shift or fight through multiple screens. There are looks, and then there are looks.

That said, your point stands; bad shooters will still often miss when they get good looks.

 

[longislandcuse]

True, but many of those looks were not really high percentage shots (G's clanked dunk aside). Many of the shots were rushed or taken before Cal's defense was forced to shift or fight through multiple screens. There are looks, and then there are looks.

That said, your point stands; bad shooters will still often miss when they get good looks.

So many rushed and bad shots. It really was mind blowing how often you just watched and shook your head at the decision making.