can we put an APB out for our fast-break?

[Cusefan0307]

Noted Tuttle, just speaking about yesterday in regards to turnovers.. Our rebounding stinks tho, and has for a while. And I agree, our guards don't leak out as much as in the past and I think that started last year.

 

[Timonen]

Noted Tuttle, just speaking about yesterday in regards to turnovers.. Our rebounding stinks tho, and has for a while. And I agree, our guards don't leak out as much as in the past and I think that started last year.

Yeah, last year we were good for one steal off a long inbound due to mcw's length and we don't have any yet this year (that I recall) and about one interception of a routine pass at the top of the key leading to a breakout. We're getting them in traffic this year which doesn't lend itself to running.

 

[thebigeast44]

We will probably see more fast breaks as the season progresses and the defense gets better. But I would rather have team that was excellent in their offensive sets and occasionally gets a fast break points rather than the other way around. The other thing is we have never had a true pass first type point guard like we do in Ennis. Triche was a SG and MCW was not really true point guard. Even Scoop liked to run an was more like a SG. It seemed like previous teams were really geared to running the fast break.

It's hard to be critical of this team after going 10-0.

Why do you consider MCW not a true point guard - because he was 6'6? He averaged 11.9 pts per game and 7.3 asst per game. Ennis avg.12.3 pts per game and 5 asst.per game. I consider Ennis more of a scoring point guard than MCW. Ennis has already put up 20+ pts in 2 games this year. MCW did that once all of last year.

I had this discussion with my father yesterday. He keeps insisting that Ennis doesn't look to score and is always looking to pass. I think he is doing what a point guard should do. Decide who is the best person in position to score in that possession and if it is him, he takes the shot.

I guess part of it is in the vernacular. Some people prefer a pass first point guard or what some people refer to as a pure point guard. Some prefer a scoring point guard - although some do not like this because they hear the term and think he looks for his shot first.

Whatever you call it, it's nice to have a point guard who can score. Otherwise, teams can back off and double team another player. They can't do that with Ennis as he can hit the outside shot or drive it to the hoop.

Ennis needs to improve his finishing on scoring. And he needs to improve his passing in many aspects - penetrating and finding people inside or outside when doing so, finding guys in the right position and feeding the post. He has done a marvelous job limiting turnovers.

And he has done an amazing job as a frosh leading this team. I wouldn't trade him for any other player in college basketball.

Let's Go Orange!

 

[Dave85]

Why do you consider MCW not a true point guard - because he was 6'6? He averaged 11.9 pts per game and 7.3 asst per game. Ennis avg.12.3 pts per game and 5 asst.per game. I consider Ennis more of a scoring point guard than MCW. Ennis has already put up 20+ pts in 2 games this year. MCW did that once all of last year.
Let's Go Orange!

Splitting orange hairs is still orange Just on the surface, MCW looked more like Waiters than Jardine. Ennis seems more like a true point guard to me. I always thought MCW was more like a 2 than a 1. But I always thought MCW's talents would translate really well into the NBA which they did. Same thing for Silent G if he gets a chance. A tall guard with great handling skills, lots of steals, and good vision for assists is hard to come by. And MCW may have opened the door for taller guards.

 

[Melancer46]

We will probably see more fast breaks as the season progresses and the defense gets better. But I would rather have team that was excellent in their offensive sets and occasionally gets a fast break points rather than the other way around. The other thing is we have never had a true pass first type point guard like we do in Ennis. Triche was a SG and MCW was not really true point guard. Even Scoop liked to run an was more like a SG. It seemed like previous teams were really geared to running the fast break.

It's hard to be critical of this team after going 10-0.

I would argue that MCW was definitely a true PG, and I thought Scoop was a true PG by his senior year as well. Scoop was sometimes bipolar, but he was an excellent ball-handler and generally did a very good job of managing the game. MCW was almost always looking to pass the ball with a few exceptions here and there (but his ball-handling wasn't as good as Scoop and Ennis), and by the end of the year, I think he really became a guy that was able to control the game, starting around the Big East Tournament.

Also, liking to run, like Scoop did, does not make him less of a PG. It means that he looked to take advantage when we had numbers. I wish that Ennis would do that more often to be honest. It would take our team to the next level if he wasn't so hesitant in the open court.

 

[Oakland]

When was the last time we were great on the break, 2010? Even that team didn't look so great on break against butler? I don't think JB values the break as much as he used to. I think he values the ball and possessions. In terms of this season, TE is very cautious and wants to be steady w the ball IMO. He backs off quite a bit when the potential opp is there to push it. Will be interesting to see if that changes this season...

Last season.

 

[bevosu]

A couple of years ago the Fabulous one provided many fast break opportunities when he was swatting away a lot of shots.

An aside: I love this forum. I've vaguely noticed Ennis being tentative bringing the ball up when we've had guys well in front of him on the wing(s). Worse case scenario ... we've got someone like CJ, Grant, Rak, one on one with a fairly decent cushion to make a move to the basket yet Ennis invariably slows the ball down.

To quote Melancer46.." hesitant in the open court". The forum and this thread confirms that others have noticed. (I don't get out much

I'm okay with it because I trust Ennis to make the decision that he's comfortable with at this point in his development . His decision making so far has been pretty hard to criticize. He's been great.

 

[RF2044]

When was the last time we were great on the break, 2010? Even that team didn't look so great on break against butler? I don't think JB values the break as much as he used to. I think he values the ball and possessions. In terms of this season, TE is very cautious and wants to be steady w the ball IMO. He backs off quite a bit when the potential opp is there to push it. Will be interesting to see if that changes this season...

Seriously?

We were incredible in transition in 2012. So much so that it compensated for our complete and utter lack of inside scoring and fairly pedestrian outside shooting. We were pretty damn good in transition last year too, just not on the level of 2012.

How quickly we forget.

 

[SoBeCuse]

Hard to run when you don't force turnovers and can't defensive rebound. That was the issue yesterday. I mentioned in another thread a week or so ago that our adjusted tempo on kenpom has gone down every year since 07-08, with each passing year being lower than the previous. A lot of this I think has to do with the way other teams play offense against our zone. They wait until 5 seconds to shoot and it decreases the amount of possessions per game for us. Couple that with our inability to defensive rebound, sometimes we play defense for a minute and a half at a time.

Boom. Nice.

 

[SoBeCuse]

The major silver lining is that we are winning games vs good teams without any transition. This team is much better in the halfcourt than the last couple of years of SU ball. Looks like Boeheim and co. is really trying to get better down in the post. I'm more worried about the defensive rebounding than transition per se.

 

[Jack Hall]

Seriously?

We were incredible in transition in 2012. So much so that it compensated for our complete and utter lack of inside scoring and fairly pedestrian outside shooting. We were pretty damn good in transition last year too, just not on the level of 2012.

How quickly we forget.

At times we were v good yes. Dion was v good at steals and was a superb finisher. Great? Depends on your threshold for great. Ie how many fast break points did we have against Wisconsin and Osu when it mattered most? Not that many.....so I am not convinced on truly great but that is just me....IMO JB s number one priority is defense (ie his comfort zone seems to be to slog it out in low scoring games and the last three games of our FF run certainly fit that bill) and that will not change before he retires...IMO when/if Hop takes over two of the most noticeable changes will be one he will play some man 2 man and two he will push the pace more than JB has in most recent yrs...

 

[RF2044]

At times we were v good yes. Dion was v good at steals and was a superb finisher. Great? Depends on your threshold for great. Ie how many fast break points did we have against Wisconsin and Osu when it mattered most? Not that many.....so I am not convinced on truly great but that is just me....IMO JB s number one priority is defense (ie his comfort zone seems to be to slog it out in low scoring games and the last three games of our FF run certainly fit that bill) and that will not change before he retires...IMO when/if Hop takes over two of the most noticeable changes will be one he will play some man 2 man and two he will push the pace more than JB has in most recent yrs...

Yes, we were great in transition in 2012.

I honestly don't think you can take an elite 8 game as a barometer of how that team played throughout the course of a nearly forty game season--especially given how competitive things are as you advance deeply into the NCAA tournament.

And to your original point, I think your opinion about our capabilities in recent seasons is off. The data [and game results] certainly don't match your perspective.

 

[Jack Hall]

Yes, we were great in transition in 2012.

I honestly don't think you can take an elite 8 game as a barometer of how that team played throughout the course of a nearly forty game season--especially given how competitive things are as you advance deeply into the NCAA tournament.

And to your original point, I think your opinion about our capabilities in recent seasons is off. The data [and game results] certainly don't match your perspective.

Ok show me some data the last 5 yrs vs say 2000-5 or especially 1985- 1990. I think you will see our fast break points and total pts per game the last five yrs will pale in comparison especially compared to the late 80s era ...and in both those eras JB made one FF and one elite eight...

 

[Jack Hall]

Yes, we were great in transition in 2012.

I honestly don't think you can take an elite 8 game as a barometer of how that team played throughout the course of a nearly forty game season--especially given how competitive things are as you advance deeply into the NCAA tournament.

And to your original point, I think your opinion about our capabilities in recent seasons is off. The data [and game results] certainly don't match your perspective.

And you didn't address the Wisconsin game...two games in a row end of season...

 

[Jack Hall]

Yes, we were great in transition in 2012.

I honestly don't think you can take an elite 8 game as a barometer of how that team played throughout the course of a nearly forty game season--especially given how competitive things are as you advance deeply into the NCAA tournament.

And to your original point, I think your opinion about our capabilities in recent seasons is off. The data [and game results] certainly don't match your perspective.

And don't get me wrong I amnot knocking the last five yrs. we have had tremendous success and JBs system is clearly working. IMO tho JB now (as opposed to late eighties and most of nineties) is more focused on defense then he is on a fast paced or fast break offense. But that's just me ....and I get the whole thing that great defense can lead to lots of easy break outs. I just don't see as much of it lately as we used to a long time ago...

 

[Jack Hall]

Ok show me some data the last 5 yrs vs say 2000-5 or especially 1985- 1990. I think you will see our fast break points and total pts per game the last five yrs will pale in comparison especially compared to the late 80s era ...and in both those eras JB made one FF and one elite eight...

And not that it means much, but just to illustrate my pt, look at our scoring from these two elite eight teams, one from 2012 one from 89, it's like night and day

http://www.orangehoops.org/GameResults/G1988-1989.htm

Look at all those games in the 80s and 90s in 1989, now that was a great fast break team but it's all relative...

http://www.orangehoops.org/GameResults/G2011-2012.htm

Notice the last 11 games in 2012 we didn't score in eighties once,...

I will also throw in the 2003 team for reference, big difference in scoring and obviously fast break pts almost certainly have to be a big part of that

http://www.orangehoops.org/GameResults/G2002-2003.htm

 

[thebigeast44]

The late 80's was a totally different era of college basketball never to return sadly. In today's world, The General never would have been throwing alley-oops to DC in 88-89. DC would have gone pro after grabbing 19 rebounds in the '87 championship game. Better to compare teams IMHO in the same era - such as the era we're in now where kids have to come to college for one year.

 

[SaltLakeOrange]

The major silver lining is that we are winning games vs good teams without any transition. This team is much better in the halfcourt than the last couple of years of SU ball. Looks like Boeheim and co. is really trying to get better down in the post. I'm more worried about the defensive rebounding than transition per se.

You'd think we were 5-5 with some of these posts...I like the way we are getting out in transition this year. Sure, it's not all slam jams and layups. Instead it's open 3's and good mid range jumpers or driving to the rim, getting fouled and hitting free throws.

We're 10-0. Worst case we come out of the preseason 12-1. This with an inexperienced backcourt and no 'go-t0' guys...not too shabby!

 

[Jack Hall]

The late 80's was a totally different era of college basketball never to return sadly. In today's world, The General never would have been throwing alley-oops to DC in 88-89. DC would have gone pro after grabbing 19 rebounds in the '87 championship game. Better to compare teams IMHO in the same era - such as the era we're in now where kids have to come to college for one year.

I agree w you but look at the scores in 2003 for our team vs 2012 that I linked above. Way higher scoring in 2003 and the 2012 had the better record. And Carmelo was one and done...Lebron didn't even go to college back then

 

[CuseFaninVT]

I think part of the issue is that Ennis is sometimes hesitant to ATTACK on the break. He's such a cool customer that he often pulls back when he has a chance to take advantage of numbers. I also think our fast break scoring would look a lot better if Ennis could finish better at the rim.

I noticed at least once in the game on Sunday where Ennis could have pushed the ball and didn't. I thought I also saw some frustration from some of the other players that they were running the break like they've been taught since kindergarten and he slowed up.

I think you may be onto something, but maybe it's not Ennis being hesitant, maybe it's JB realizing he's only got a couple guys who can be counted on to actual catch a fast break long-distance pass and finish well (I'm thinking CJ and Grant here). BMK runs like an antelope but he is NOT going to catch that pass and finish. Rak maybe.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Hard to run when you don't force turnovers and can't defensive rebound. That was the issue yesterday. I mentioned in another thread a week or so ago that our adjusted tempo on kenpom has gone down every year since 07-08, with each passing year being lower than the previous. A lot of this I think has to do with the way other teams play offense against our zone. They wait until 5 seconds to shoot and it decreases the amount of possessions per game for us. Couple that with our inability to defensive rebound, sometimes we play defense for a minute and a half at a time.

I think your point about the reduced number of possessions is on the money, but the other teams aren't "waiting" until 5 seconds to shoot. They just can't get around our D. We force them to take bad shots with 5 seconds to shoot.

And the D rebounding is a further result of this. Two things happen against the zone - long shots or (like on Sunday) guards penetrating. On a long shot you typically get a farther bounce away from our bigs. Thus our guards have to come back in and grab those boards - sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. When they do, that keeps them from leaking out and getting the break really going. When they don't you get an offensive board for the other squad. We don't want that.

Now if a guard penetrates, that usually means one of our bigs (or more than one in too many cases) will rotate and attempt to block the shot, typically leaving them out of position to get the defensive board more often than not. I'd love to see BMK and Rak stay more disciplined and challenge the shot from the floor (a couple times on Sunday they could have had blocks from their feet but ended up falling prey to the head fake and the guard ducked under them). That keeps them in better rebounding position as well.

 

[sufandu]

We went a long time without being a good transition team. We were great in the mid/late '80's with DC rebounding and throwing bombs to Douglas and Thompson. Through most of the '90's we weren't very good at it. We started to get it back in the 2000's. It really took off in 2010 with our great D and great finishers in Wes Johnson and Kris Joseph. The myth that we've always been a transition team is similar to the myth that JB has only ever played zone.

 

[RF2044]

Ok show me some data the last 5 yrs vs say 2000-5 or especially 1985- 1990. I think you will see our fast break points and total pts per game the last five yrs will pale in comparison especially compared to the late 80s era ...and in both those eras JB made one FF and one elite eight...

You are comparing two wildly divergent data points. I'm not sure that referencing the late 80s proves your point--at all. That was arguably the golden era of our program's peak from a talent standpoint, in an era where the game was played differently. If that is your baseline, then it isn't a persuasive argument. It demonstrates that you are focused upon the wrong unit of analysis.

And you didn't address the Wisconsin game...two games in a row end of season...

You mean Wisconsin, the ultimate slow down team? Do you really need me to go through the process of explaining why there were fewer possessions and consequently less fast break opportunities when playing against Wisconsin, who utilizes every second of the shot clock?

The fact of the matter is that Wisconsin that year was also statistically one of the top defensive teams in the country. And we carved them up with a great game plan that emphasized guard penetration against their strong half-court m-2-m defense. But again, you are cherry picking data. This was an NCAA single elimination game to advance to the elite 8. You don't just take the hardest game or two of the year and hold up that data as extrapolatable for the entire season, while ignoring the entire rest of the year's data.

Frankly, I'm at a loss to understand how anyone could look at that year and claim that we didn't have an exceptional transition game. We had zero low post offense. Nada. Zip. Zilch. And we weren't that strong of an outside shooting team [relatively speaking--a bunch of solid guys statistically, but no superior three point shooter]. All year long, we compensated for those limitations by forcing turnovers and getting easy scoring opportunities in transition that offset our relatively pedestrian half court offensive capabilities.

And don't get me wrong I amnot knocking the last five yrs. we have had tremendous success and JBs system is clearly working. IMO tho JB now (as opposed to late eighties and most of nineties) is more focused on defense then he is on a fast paced or fast break offense. But that's just me ....and I get the whole thing that great defense can lead to lots of easy break outs. I just don't see as much of it lately as we used to a long time ago...

Sherman Douglas is my all-time favorite SU player. Bar none. I don't ever think we'll see another offense that is that high powered, in large part because we don't have the rebounding we did back then. Seikaly, Coleman, and Owens--incredible rebounders, amongst the best in program history--who keyed the fast break. You need to get stops and get the ball back to run.

Another key factor is that we play zone exclusively now, which wasn't the case prior to 1996. It is much tougher to secure defensive rebounds out of zone than it is m-2-m. Sure, we played SOME zone back then, but it was more like 33% of the time--maybe even less--and much more situational. But those teams utilized primarily man, and our current teams are entirely zone. The rebounding differential speaks for itself.

 

[Jack Hall]

You are comparing two wildly divergent data points. I'm not sure that referencing the late 80s proves your point--at all. That was arguably the golden era of our program's peak from a talent standpoint, in an era where the game was played differently. If that is your baseline, then it isn't a persuasive argument. It demonstrates that you are focused upon the wrong unit of analysis.



You mean Wisconsin, the ultimate slow down team? Do you really need me to go through the process of explaining why there were fewer possessions and consequently less fast break opportunities when playing against Wisconsin, who utilizes every second of the shot clock?

The fact of the matter is that Wisconsin that year was also statistically one of the top defensive teams in the country. And we carved them up with a great game plan that emphasized guard penetration against their strong half-court m-2-m defense. But again, you are cherry picking data. This was an NCAA single elimination game to advance to the elite 8. You don't just take the hardest game or two of the year and hold up that data as extrapolatable for the entire season, while ignoring the entire rest of the year's data.

Frankly, I'm at a loss to understand how anyone could look at that year and claim that we didn't have an exceptional transition game. We had zero low post offense. Nada. Zip. Zilch. And we weren't that strong of an outside shooting team [relatively speaking--a bunch of solid guys statistically, but no superior three point shooter]. All year long, we compensated for those limitations by forcing turnovers and getting easy scoring opportunities in transition that offset our relatively pedestrian half court offensive capabilities.



Sherman Douglas is my all-time favorite SU player. Bar none. I don't ever think we'll see another offense that is that high powered, in large part because we don't have the rebounding we did back then. Seikaly, Coleman, and Owens--incredible rebounders, amongst the best in program history--who keyed the fast break. You need to get stops and get the ball back to run.

Another key factor is that we play zone exclusively now, which wasn't the case prior to 1996. It is much tougher to secure defensive rebounds out of zone than it is m-2-m. Sure, we played SOME zone back then, but it was more like 33% of the time--maybe even less--and much more situational. But those teams utilized primarily man, and our current teams are entirely zone. The rebounding differential speaks for itself.

I really can't argue with your first pt other than agreeing w you, relatively speaking yes we were a much better transition team in late eighties than we are now, which was part of my original pt

As for your second pt, I again agree w you but don't great or "incredible" running teams impose their will on others instead of vice versa? Also if you say eighties don't count because of talent issues how do you explain the differences in our scoring ability from 2003 and 2012 (with the 2003 team averaging way more pts per game) despite the 2012 team having a better win percentage and the 2012 team having more guys who would be drafted by nba (so it's no longer a talent issue like you claim for 89 team). To me it's simply because the 2012 team relied on defense a heck of lot more than "incredible" offense to achieve its impressive record.

As far as your third pt, it seems like you are saying going primarily zone hurt our ability to get out in transition due in part to rebounding issues. I agree, and that is part if my pt, over time JB is more focused on defense (zone) than he is on transition or playing the game at a faster pace. So I agree w you. And his results have been very good lately so I really can't be critical of JB...

 

[Jack Hall]

And btw the a General is also my favorite all time SU player.

I think we generally have the same perspective on the program we just have different definitions of great transition teams which is simply semantics, my bad