Carmelo passed Larry Bird last night in points

[CusefanATL]

The ball stops? You're posting like you haven't watched a Knicks game all season when you say things like that, that's why I asked. He's currently 2nd among SF's in rebounds, and 3rd among SF's in assists. But yeah, the "ball stops" and he only "grabs a few boards". He's producing the same as Kevin Durant and Paul George in those categories. But those guys are "cool" to hype up as all around players. Expecting a small forward to grab 10 boards per game in the NBA because he did in college though? NBA Small forwards don't average 10 rebounds per game. I can't even think of the last one who did.

Top 15ish player? Maybe now, but nah...he was pretty clearly top 10 and closer to 5 for most of his Knicks years. He was 3rd in MVP voting a few years ago. Only playing the same position as Kevin Durant and Lebron James(they may go down as the 2 greatest SF's ever when it's all said and done) kept him off first team All NBA.

Mozgov...who cares? He's a decent role player at best. Tyson Chandler(sucking in the playoffs and all) was way better than Mozgov. Amare's injuries "destroyed" them by making them more average than they could've been. Remember when Melo went there, it was to team up with Amare who was still a superstar. Amare's body started falling apart weeks after Melo got there.

1st of all, im talking about his career. not this year. This is arguably his most well rounded year. So I stopped reading after that.

 

[CusefanATL]

Mozgov's are a dime a dozen in the NBA.

and you just saved $9 million. DO you know anything about the NBA and the cap?

 

[OrangeDW]

1st of all, im talking about his career. not this year. This is arguably his most well rounded year. So I stopped reading after that.

Stopped reading? Mistake. You might've learned something.

 

[OrangeDW]

and you just saved $9 million. DO you know anything about the NBA and the cap?

With a mediocre player that doesn't matter. Who cares? Chandler was defensive player of the year for them. If he didn't play poorly against the Pacers, they're probably in the ECF in 2013. If Amare stayed Amare just for another year or two, who knows? Melo's fault though. They went for it. They had, on paper, maybe the best front-line in basketball. Melo did his job. Can't control what happened to Amare, and Chandler in the playoffs.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

The only thing I'll say against this is I think it's a little revisionist history to say they should have amnestied Stat. (The billups thing was a mess though) D'Antoni did play him too much his first year in NY; but that season he averaged 25-8 on a 56% true shooting, made second team all NBA, and was 28 years old. In hindsight, sure; but it's awfully hard to at the time say they should have just taken him off their roster.

Anyone who expected Melo to average 25-10-5; come on guys.

My thinking is this - the Knicks couldn't afford to whiff in free agency. They'd built towards having that cap room for too long and sacrificed too much to come away empty. Problem was the best they could get was a guy with knees that had a ticking clock, and the only way to get him was to give him a risky number of years. They had to have a star though and they did get him, and they saw the immediate benefits.

Once Melo was on board though, that wrapped up the star they needed for a lot longer at a lot less risk. Stat was expendable, because again, time bomb. The amnesty would have been amazingly bold, but I think they would have made it up by fielding a more competitive team with FA dollars. Instead they had to deal on the fringes with knuckleheads. Looking at you, JR.

 

[CusefanATL]

Stopped reading? Mistake. You might've learned something.

I got to durant. He averages 2 or 3 more points on probably 2 or 3 less shots a game (over a career! which is insane) a 1/2 rebound more, and an extra assist. Durant has made the finals. Similar career.

 

[CusefanATL]

With a mediocre player that doesn't matter. Who cares? Chandler was defensive player of the year for them. If he didn't play poorly against the Pacers, they're probably in the ECF in 2013. If Amare stayed Amare just for another year or two, who knows? Melo's fault though. They went for it. They had, on paper, maybe the best front-line in basketball. Melo did his job. Can't control what happened to Amare, and Chandler in the playoffs.

Ill just agree to disagree man. If Melo has lived up to your basketball expectations from 2003, well I thought higher of him back then than you did. I guess I didnt watch the 2003 basketball season etiher. .

 

[OrangeDW]

I got to durant. He averages 2 or 3 more points on probably 2 or 3 less shots a game (over a career! which is insane) a 1/2 rebound more, and an extra assist. Durant has made the finals. Similar career.

Probably 2-3 less shots a game? I assumed you looked up the stats...but then you just made that up and tossed in a "probably"? Durant averaged 19.0 shots per game for his career. Melo averages 19.6. So that "insane!" stat was one you flat out made up.

Also, Durant averages 3.6 assists to Melo's 3.1 So "extra assist"...you made that up too. SMH.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Mozgov is younger and significantly cheaper. 10 and 10 and 1.5 blocks from chandler for 13 million vs Mozgov 9, 7 and 1.2 blocks for 3.5 million is not insane by any stretch.

You're being a bit generous with those stat projections for Mozgov, and really shortchanging the attitude and experience Chandler brings. You know, having won a championship and everything.

 

[CusefanATL]

You're being a bit generous with those stat projections for Mozgov, and really shortchanging the attitude and experience Chandler brings. You know, having won a championship and everything.

those arent projections for mozgov. those are what he averaged the last 2 years.

 

[OrangeDW]

Ill just agree to disagree man. If Melo has lived up to your basketball expectations from 2003, well I thought higher of him back then than you did. I guess I didnt watch the 2003 basketball season etiher. . . . . . .

You clearly haven't followed closely this year if you're cracking on Melo for "ball stopping" and talking about Mozgov (6 and 4 - he's been bad) as some big loss. That's all I was saying. 25, 7, and 3 is a heck of a career. Would've been great to see him get to the finals and get deeper in the playoffs(he's not done yet however), but he really never had that type of team. Even the year Denver went to the WCF, they weren't exactly loaded. It was more of a good team that overachieved a bit.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

those arent projections for mozgov. those are what he averaged the last 2 years.

Have you looked at Mozgov's numbers when Chandler was in a Knicks uniform? I have. That's the real comparison.

Mozgov won't look like quite the bargain if you do.

 

[CusefanATL]

Probably 2-3 less shots a game? I assumed you looked up the stats...but then you just made that up and tossed in a "probably"? Durant averaged 19.0 shots per game for his career. Melo averages 19.6. So that "insane!" stat was one you flat out made up.

Also, Durant averages 3.6 assists to Melo's 3.1 So "extra assist"...you made that up too. SMH.

I did not look up durants stats until just now. But i have a very good numbers memory and sometimes that actually gets me in trouble. I apologize if the probably didnt give it away.

How stupid do you think it would be to try to pass those off if i were lying? Seriously? Do you think i wouldnt realize how easy it is to STAT CHECK points, rebounds, assists and shots? What the hell is your problem? seriously go to bed buddy.

FYI the shots were just a guess, I never memorized durants shot attempts. It was more of an assumption. I was off on that. Everything else is pretty simple.

 

[OrangeDW]

I did not look up durants stats until just now. But i have a very good numbers memory and sometimes that actually gets me in trouble. I apologize if the probably didnt give it away.

How stupid do you think it would be to try to pass those off if i were lying? Seriously? Do you think i wouldnt realize how easy it is to STAT CHECK points, rebounds, assists and shots? What the hell is your problem? seriously go to bed buddy.

I didn't say you were lying...I said at first I assumed you looked them up but then I noticed the "probably", and then I realized you flat out made the stats up - which you just said you did. Don't get mad because your stats memory was a little off and you got corrected.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Mozgov is so good Cleveland basically benched him. Love what the Knicks are building now. Hopefully they can add a top half pg. I really wish they could get Conley. I think Melo and Porzingis will be awesome together next year. Not sure if they can beat Cleveland, but they will be a top half eastern team.

 

[CusefanATL]

I didn't say you were lying...I said at first I assumed you looked them up but then I noticed the "probably", and then I realized you flat out made the stats up - which you just said you did. Don't get mad because your stats memory was a little off and you got corrected.

fair enough. I may have just read your tone wrong.

Not sure i would say i "flat out made the stats up" when i was astonishingly close on all of them. I had a fair idea. and the point being there is no question, durant has had the better career if they both ended today. And unfortunately for Melo, his will probably end far before Durants.

 

[CusefanATL]

Not sure if they can beat Cleveland, but they will be a top half eastern team.

not a post i would have ever invisioned for Melo Especially at his age. "love what the knicks are BUILDING... THEY WILL BE A TOP HALF EASTERN TEAM" :bat: <--- not meant as in insult to 0307 either, because you are right. I like what they are building too. and i think they will be a top 5 eastern team next year.

But that quote in itself is my point. I thought Melo would be better. Strictly his fault by playing bad or making bad decisions is neither here nor there. He made his bed for a shortsided view of the almighty dollar.

Im goign to root like crazy for him. and hope he somehow finds a title... but I just dont see it.

 

[OrangeDW]

fair enough. I may have just read your tone wrong.

Not sure i would say i "flat out made the stats up" when i was astonishingly close on all of them. I had a fair idea. and the point being there is no question, durant has had the better career if they both ended today. And unfortunately for Melo, his will probably end far before Durants.

Durant may end up as the 2nd or 3rd best SF of all time if he keeps on the path he's on, so no shame in not being quite as good as Kevin Durant. My only point in bringing him up was that Melo is rebounding and assisting at the same level as him this year - and after looking up the stats it's pretty close for their careers too in those areas.

But on the rebounding thing...Durant was a 11 rpg guy in college. He's not that in the pros, nor could you really expect him to be IMO.

 

[CusefanATL]

Durant may end up as the 2nd or 3rd best SF of all time if he keeps on the path he's on, so no shame in not being quite as good as Kevin Durant. My only point in bringing him up was that Melo is rebounding and assisting at the same level as him this year - and after looking up the stats it's pretty close for their careers too in those areas.

But on the rebounding thing...Durant was a 11 rpg guy in college. He's not that in the pros, nor could you really expect him to be IMO.

I just think Durant was much more perimeter oriented than Melo was in college and now they are both sitting on the 3 point line. Durant was like Mike Beasley in college. They were just stat stuffers but not winners. Melo was the best player on the court at every single point in that season. He was the best rebounder, the best scorer, and the best defender. He literally carried us to 5+ victories that season (not made up out of thin air but just a guess - i speak like boeheim speaks) and is the reason by the end of the year, we were unquestionably the best team - with only 2 pros on it (which is a huge anomoly - almost all champs have 3 pros)

 

[OrangeDW]

I just think Durant was much more perimeter oriented than Melo was in college and now they are both sitting on the 3 point line. Durant was like Mike Beasley in college. They were just stat stuffers but not winners. Melo was the best player on the court at every single point in that season. He was the best rebounder, the best scorer, and the best defender. He literally carried us to 5+ victories that season (not made up out of thin air but just a guess - i speak like boeheim speaks) and is the reason by the end of the year, we were unquestionably the best team - with only 2 pros on it (which is a huge anomoly - almost all champs have 3 pros)

Agreed on how great he was at Cuse, but we did make the sweet sixteen the following season. Only 2 pros which is a fair point...though GMac was one of those great college players who didn't translate to the pros, and Billy Edelin was a super-talented wildcard(who knows how his career could've turned out?).

Even Blake Griffin - a guy who I was positive would continue to be a rebounding animal in the NBA - doesn't average 10 anymore. He did his first 2 years(12.1, 10.9), but since then: 8.3, 9.5, 7.6, 8.7. And this is a true Power Forward who averaged 14 reb. per game in his soph. season. 10 rebounds per game is a LOT in the NBA. There's only 9 guys averaging 10.0 or more this year(14 averaging 9.5 or more) and every single one is a power forward or center.

 

[SWC75]

Melo passed Bird in 27 fewer games, 870 to 897. But I don't think anyone would suggest that Melo was a comparable player.

Melo: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/anthoca01.html

Larry: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/birdla01.html

Per 48 minutes:

Melo 33.0p 8.7r 4.1a 1.4s 0.6b = 47.8+ 14.1mfg 1.9mft 3.8to 3.9pf = 23.7- = 24.1NP 17.0OE 7.1FG

Larry 30.4p 12.5r 7.9a 2.2s 1.1b = 54.1+ 12.2mfg 0.7mft 3.9to 3.2pf = 20.0- = 34.1NP 17.5OE 16.6FG

 

[Knicks411]

My thinking is this - the Knicks couldn't afford to whiff in free agency. They'd built towards having that cap room for too long and sacrificed too much to come away empty. Problem was the best they could get was a guy with knees that had a ticking clock, and the only way to get him was to give him a risky number of years. They had to have a star though and they did get him, and they saw the immediate benefits.

Once Melo was on board though, that wrapped up the star they needed for a lot longer at a lot less risk. Stat was expendable, because again, time bomb. The amnesty would have been amazingly bold, but I think they would have made it up by fielding a more competitive team with FA dollars. Instead they had to deal on the fringes with knuckleheads. Looking at you, JR.

It would have been incredibly bold and in hindsight probably looked pretty good, but at the time there was just no way it was ever going to happen. The Billups amnesty is what killed them; they thought they could move that contract (i figured they could as well) and they weren't able to.

 

[AZOrange]

He's usually near the league leaders for rebounding at his position. His rebounding is fine. Lots of 10 reb. per game guys in college become 6-7 reb. per game guys in the pros.

25, 7, and 3 is really, really good, but yeah offering up numbers that like 1 guy in the history of basketball has gotten was kind've out there.

Especially when they play the 3! This stuff is insane.

 

[AZOrange]

Ill just agree to disagree man. If Melo has lived up to your basketball expectations from 2003, well I thought higher of him back then than you did. I guess I didnt watch the 2003 basketball season etiher. . . . . . .

He's had a hall of fame career...good god what more can u ask?

 

[MikeSU02]

There is certainly a flip side to this argument. I love melo more than most but lets not act like his NBA career hasnt been somewhat of a flop to what we thought it would be based on his college year. He literally is the best college player since Laettner? And he is an after thought to anyone who follows the NBA.

If you asked anyone on this board what his NBA averages would have been they would have said 25, 10, and 5 with numerous conference finals and finals. Instead its like 25 on 20 shots, 6 or 7 boards, 3 assists. 1 conf final, and not even close to sniffing the finals.

and saying he "came home to the NY" is a little disengenuous, no? he destroyed the knicks franchise (and in turn his career) by demanding the trade instead of just going there for a few million less (in all actuallity prob a few million more with endorsements - he 'only' makes 8 per year - if the team is good) 6 weeks later.

Your assertion is crazy. I don't care how many NBA games you have been to or what connections you have. You have no idea about the NBA, that is clear.

Expecting 25, 10 and 5? There are only 13 guys who have ever averaged 25ppg over the course of their careers, not taking into consideration the other two, somewhat arbitrary, stat thresholds chosen above in the thread.

Here are those 13 that have averaged 25ppg for a career. I have put an asterisk (*) next to those guys who also averaged 10 boards and 5 assists.

MJ
Wilt
Elgin Baylor
KD
Bron
West
AI
Pettit
Gervin
Oscar
Kobe
Melo
Karl Malone

NO ONE HAS EVER AVERAGED WHAT YOU SAY HE SHOULD HAVE AVERAGED for a career. Even in the past when there was barely any defense played and a ton of possessions, NO ONE has ever averaged what you say he should have averaged.