Christmas is so great for this stat alone - 37.3 MPG in conferece

[Hoov50]

Mike G is better at entry passes than Ennis or MCW ever were. Its strange.

You may be right, but how can we know for sure when MCW and Ennis so rarely even attempted one?

 

[JCDATHIRD]

You may be right, but how can we know for sure when MCW and Ennis so rarely even attempted one?

Rak has been good at getting position forever now. There is no way that JB will tell them to ignore Rak when he had position for layups. just my opinion, but if they could have made those entries, they would have.

 

[JCDATHIRD]

Ahead of who? Certainly not Seikaly. He didn't have as good of a year as Rak is having this year, so Rak is above him. I know that most don't have perspective on Bill Smith--but trust me, Smith might be the top player on this list. And was Etan better than Bouie? Judgement call there. But it is a pretty easy argument to slate those four ahead of Thomas. And that's no knock on Etan, and more of a acknowledgement about how good those other four were / are.

That Rak has put himself in this conversation with his play this year is a testimony to what an incredible year he's had.

I just dont agree at all that Rak is above him. He is having the best individual year for sure, but as an SU player all together i would take Etan why quite a bit.

Why does the list have to be just those 4? Etan to me is clearly closer to them (if not better than some) than he is to the rest of the centers we have had (Forth, Hill, etc...)

 

[shandeezy7]

Etan has a better overall career than Rak, but Rak is a better player this year than Etan was his senior year.

Etan would be fifth in my list, behind the group above.

Nitpicking here, but you didn't say best season for a center in SU history. You said best centers. Just pointing out that Etan had a much more productive career than Christmas, and his senior season wasn't exactly all that far beneath Christmas' (13.6 ppg, 9.3 rpg and 3.7 blocks per game for Etan compared to 18.1 ppg, 9.3 rpg and 2.5 bpg for Rak). Throw in the 9 year NBA career, and I'd give Etan the slight edge on the list. Obviously, Christmas still has time to change that.

 

[br801]

i know he didn't trust christmas on O. i think he was wrong not to

He was no where close to this skilled offensively last season, and forcing it in to him in game situations in an attempt to create more shots for him wouldn't have changed that. He also had quite a bit of trouble staying out of foul trouble last season. He is simply an extreme case of a late bloomer.

 

[RF2044]

I just dont agree at all that Rak is above him. He is having the best individual year for sure, but as an SU player all together i would take Etan why quite a bit.

Why does the list have to be just those 4? Etan to me is clearly closer to them (if not better than some) than he is to the rest of the centers we have had (Forth, Hill, etc...)

Okay, well that's your opinion. Mine is that Christmas is a better player than Etan was. I'm an Etan fan, but I think that Christmas is a superior offensive player, and as good in most other respects [Etan obviously was an elite shot blocker, whereas Christmas is "only' a very good one]. But if I was picking one to man the pivot, I'd go with senior Rak all day over senior Etan.

I don't dispute that Etan had better soph / junior years than Christmas did.

 

[Millhouse]

thomas wasn't as good on offense but he still should've gotten the ball more. i think christmas is better. thomas got more minutes because celuck and ovcina were so bad

 

[Millhouse]

He was no where close to this skilled offensively last season

we never passed him the ball on purpose so how would we know that?

 

[JCDATHIRD]

thomas wasn't as good on offense but he still should've gotten the ball more. i think christmas is better. thomas got more minutes because celuck and ovcina were so bad

Rak hasnt exactly had world beaters behind him. Keita was a fan favorite, but a mediocre player and Obokoh is just a body.

But let me clarify: I agree 100% that senior Rak is having maybe the best season we have ever seen from an SU center given the attention he gets. But he was pretty much a non-factor for 3 years. Taking the 4 years as a whole, i go with Etan.

by a smidge...

 

[NineOneSeven]

we never passed him the ball on purpose so how would we know that?

This. Did Rak improve a ton from Jr to Sr year? Absolutely. Could he have contributed more last year with more opportunity? Absolutely.

Both, to me, are facts.

 

[RF2044]

Rak hasnt exactly had world beaters behind him. Keita was a fan favorite, but a mediocre player and Obokoh is just a body.

But let me clarify: I agree 100% that senior Rak is having maybe the best season we have ever seen from an SU center given the attention he gets. But he was pretty much a non-factor for 3 years. Taking the 4 years as a whole, i go with Etan.

by a smidge...

I agree with the bolded point above. Comparing total careers, Etan wins out. Comparing "best" seasons and where both players were / are on their respective developmental curves at the end of their time at SU, I'd go with Christmas.

 

[Cowtown]

He was no where close to this skilled offensively last season, and forcing it in to him in game situations in an attempt to create more shots for him wouldn't have changed that. He also had quite a bit of trouble staying out of foul trouble last season. He is simply an extreme case of a late bloomer.

I'd also consider the fact he is finally playing with guards who will get him an entry pass (I think also mentioned above). It was often frustrating watching Ennis over-handle the ball last year. I haven't seen too many games this year, however, so that's just a guess. But also he did have a bad habit last year of getting into foul trouble way too early, trying to block every shot so he often took himself out of his own rhythm, so to speak. So, with some maturity and playing with a different cast comes a complete player. Ain't it great when that happens?

 

[KaiserUEO]

Rak is better on O, but Etan was sooooo much better on D that the scales would be tipped to him.

and Rak isnt bad on D.

 

[br801]

we never passed him the ball on purpose so how would we know that?

I would think if he was the same player offensively we are seeing this season, the coaching staff would have taken notice in practice and unleashed this current version of Mr. Christmas on our opponents, at least at some point. Instead, we never saw anything close to what we are seeing from him now.

 

[Hoov50]

I would think if he was the same player offensively we are seeing this season, the coaching staff would have taken notice in practice and unleashed this current version of Mr. Christmas on our opponents, at least at some point. Instead, we never saw anything close to what we are seeing from him now.

By many accounts Craig Forth absolutely dominated in practice many days, yet we never made an effort to feed him the ball in the post.

 

[Millhouse]

I would think if he was the same player offensively we are seeing this season, the coaching staff would have taken notice in practice and unleashed this current version of Mr. Christmas on our opponents, at least at some point. Instead, we never saw anything close to what we are seeing from him now.

i don't assume boeheim is always right about everything. nobody's perfect

 

[RF2044]

Rak is better on O, but Etan was sooooo much better on D that the scales would be tipped to him.

and Rak isnt bad on D.

I don't agree with that. Etan was a phenomenal shot blocker--no argument there, can't be disputed. But in terms of positional defense, we've had guys just as good or better [for example, a guy like Daryl Watkins]. I think people [not you, just in general] confuse / mistake shot blocking for defense, when they aren't really the same thing from an execution standpoint.

But in terms of shot blocking? Etan was the best, hands down.

 

[br801]

i don't assume boeheim is always right about everything. nobody's perfect

I don't either. And I was talking about the entire staff, not simply JB.

The beauty of the game is that players are individuals, and develop at different rates, for an assortment of reasons. Suggesting that the coaching staff was somehow sitting on the current version of Christmas in previous seasons makes little sense to me.

 

[NineOneSeven]

I would think if he was the same player offensively we are seeing this season, the coaching staff would have taken notice in practice and unleashed this current version of Mr. Christmas on our opponents, at least at some point. Instead, we never saw anything close to what we are seeing from him now.

So the solution was to put in a drastically more offensively challenged player?

I don't buy it for a second.

 

[longtimefan]

Its really a remarkable transformation.

Earlier in the season, I had a thread brainstorming guys who upped their game senior year. A couple of them had big years [DNic, Rick, etc.], but had been prominent players before their senior season who just took it to the next level. A few guys [Wendall Alexis, Laz, Schayes] had to wait their turn, and then put together big senior seasons.

But of them all, only Schayes compares with what we're seeing this year from Rak. In fact, I think that Rak's improvement has been so stark and is so unprecedented that he belongs in a category all to himself.

I remember earlier in the season when he was averaging about 18 ppg, wondering how much that would come down once we got into conference play. It hasn't come down at all. If anything, he's gotten better. I honestly believe he is in the discussion as one of the top 3 or 4 centers in program history. Seikaly, Smith, Bouie, and Christmas.

Cincebox. He was of the same era as Jim Brown. Put up ridiculous numbers.

 

[dasher]

Ahead of who? Certainly not Seikaly. He didn't have as good of a year as Rak is having this year, so Rak is above him. I know that most don't have perspective on Bill Smith--but trust me, Smith might be the top player on this list. And was Etan better than Bouie? Judgement call there. But it is a pretty easy argument to slate those four ahead of Thomas. And that's no knock on Etan, and more of a acknowledgement about how good those other four were / are.

That Rak has put himself in this conversation with his play this year is a testimony to what an incredible year he's had.

what about Danny S.? He was a force his sr year.

 

[dasher]

This. Did Rak improve a ton from Jr to Sr year? Absolutely. Could he have contributed more last year with more opportunity? Absolutely.

Both, to me, are facts.

the second isn't a fact.

 

[supp]

He was no where close to this skilled offensively last season, and forcing it in to him in game situations in an attempt to create more shots for him wouldn't have changed that. He also had quite a bit of trouble staying out of foul trouble last season. He is simply an extreme case of a late bloomer.

Last year's offensive gameplan in general was badly flawed. We treated CJ, a good player, like he was Carmelo, a superstar, and we paid for it in the end. Ironically, Rak has shown this year that he's better equipped to handle the attention of an opposing defense than Fair was last year.

 

[KaiserUEO]

I don't agree with that. Etan was a phenomenal shot blocker--no argument there, can't be disputed. But in terms of positional defense, we've had guys just as good or better [for example, a guy like Daryl Watkins]. I think people [not you, just in general] confuse / mistake shot blocking for defense, when they aren't really the same thing from an execution standpoint.

But in terms of shot blocking? Etan was the best, hands down.

shot blockers also impact peoples thoughts, but yes, it is separate than overall great D.

Etan was 1st team all D, i doubt Rak gets a sniff.

heres to Rak matching Etan's 9 years in the league, thats a pretty tall order...

 

[longtimefan]

shot blockers also impact peoples thoughts, but yes, it is separate than overall great D.

Etan was 1st team all D, i doubt Rak gets a sniff.

heres to Rak matching Etan's 9 years in the league, thats a pretty tall order...

Bill Russell said that if he had to block his own man's shot (weak-side help block is a different subject), he had played bad defense.