CJ cannot keep having games of 8 and 6

Gabjon · Dec 18, 2012

SWC75 said:
Per 40 minutes, last C.J. averaged 13 points, 8 reboudns, 1 assist, 2 steals and a block.
This year he is averaging 16 points, 9.5 rebounds, 1 assist, 2 steals and a block.

He started the year trying to be a "Star" and succeeded for about 5 minutes vs. SDS. But he struggled after that and has been playing better now that he's reverted to his former playing style.

BE play hasn't started...

br801 · Dec 18, 2012

Gabjon said:
His stats are tilt do to 3 good performances. We need more than 3/10 from him. Everybody has a bad game but he needs more consistent

I'm not as concerned as you seem to be. Some of his best games (and biggest minutes) have come against SDSU, Princeton and Arkansas.

I don't much care how his numbers look in the cupcake games where JB is experimenting with line-ups and CJ hasn't played as much.

SoBeCuse · Dec 18, 2012

anomander said:
CJ is fine. He is a big game player. He almost always shows up in a big game. just look at his numbers against some of the supposed tough competition. He is a guy I am confident in. On the other hand you never know if James is going to show up. He's all or nothing James. Thankfully with increased minutes he has been a little more on then off this year, but when it comes to who I am confident in when their is a big game I'll take CJ all the time. He has the tendency to be a bit passive in these stat games. He rebounds well, does the dirty work, and is killer in transition.

James is a better finisher though.

anomander · Dec 18, 2012

SoBeCuse said:
James is a better finisher though.

both of them are great finishers. i'll take either one of them finishing a break. i think cj may have a couple more sportscenter moments though

SWC75 · Dec 18, 2012

Gabjon said:
BE play hasn't started...

And we will see what happens then. The point is that his numbers have been pretty good so far and CJ seems to operate better when he isn't trying to be "the star".

RF2044 · Dec 18, 2012

Gabjon said:
His stats are tilt do to 3 good performances. We need more than 3/10 from him. Everybody has a bad game but he needs more consistent

Quit backtracking. You said that he needed to average 12 and 7, and that he "wasn't anywhere close to that."

In fact, CJ is averaging over 11 ppg and 6.8 rpg--pretty much right on target for the numbers you were clamoring for, playing fewer minutes than he will when the competition improves.

There isn't a bigger CJ proponent on this forum that me, and I am a bit disappointed by the lack of progress I've seen in his game. But your criticism of his production is off-target--he's already doing exactly what you claim he needs to do.

Agree 100% that he needs to be more consistent.

zhanjuzi · Dec 18, 2012

CJ has put on some needed muscle mass since last season and he is getting used to his new bulk. He doesn't seem as polished as last year, but once this extra strength carries over to his game he will be awesome.

Gabjon · Dec 18, 2012

RF2044 said:
Quit backtracking. You said that he needed to average 12 and 7, and that he "wasn't anywhere close to that."

In fact, CJ is averaging over 11 ppg and 6.8 rpg--pretty much right on target for the numbers you were clamoring for, playing fewer minutes than he will when the competition improves.

There isn't a bigger CJ proponent on this forum that me, and I am a bit disappointed by the lack of progress I've seen in his game. But your criticism of his production is off-target--he's already doing exactly what you claim he needs to do.

Agree 100% that he needs to be more consistent.

I said 12/7 during BE play if you don't his averaging will drop during BE play than I don't know what to tell you. Everyone's numbers will drop not just CJ's we averaging 83.4pts a game against cupcakes. In the BE it will around 70pts last year we averaged 71.4pts in BE play.

RF2044 · Dec 18, 2012

Gabjon said:
I said 12/7 during BE play if you don't his averaging will drop during BE play than I don't know what to tell you. Everyone's numbers will drop not just CJ's we averaging 83.4pts a game against cupcakes. In the BE it will around 70pts last year we averaged 71.4pts in BE play.

I see--so the purpose of this thread was to lament a dropoff in CJ's production that hasn't occurred yet. Okay...

1] No, I don't think CJ's numbers will drop. I think he'll remain very consistent around this level throughout the season, particularly because I think his minutes will increase during BE play.

2] I couldn't care less what he averages, so long as the team continues to win. Just like last year, when people used to knock KJ for "only" scoring 13 PPG, the objective is team success, not stats.

br801 · Dec 18, 2012

moqui said:
the Detroit game was a fluke - Syracuse has been a much improved rebounding team this season (15th in offensive and 119th in defensive vs. 33rd and 341st last year - and we were in the lower 300s all through the pre-conference then, as well). CJ is the leading rebounder on a good rebounding team - that tells me more than his average does.

on offense, he's the fourth leading scorer - if you thought he was going to be higher in the pecking order than that, then your expectations were too high.

I find it hard to worry about simple averages on such a balanced team

Your last point is excellent and seemingly hard for some here to grasp. Couple that with how a player's numbers can change dramatically this early in the season and you've got a recipe for hand-wringing and panic.

Southerland has led the team in scoring most of the year, but after a few "off games" he was overtaken by Triche and suddenly Grant was coming for his minutes. After last night, he's back on top in ppg.

Triche scored in double figures in every game before last night, had a terrible game against Detroit and is now the weak link that will bring this team down in March.

Cooney struggled mightily with his shooting early. He than had a few excellent offensive games and became the x-factor that would put us over the top. Now, after a few quiet games, he sucks again and isn't ready.

Gabjon · Dec 18, 2012

SWC75 said:
And we will see what happens then. The point is that his numbers have been pretty good so far and CJ seems to operate better when he isn't trying to be "the star".

I'm not saying his numbers aren't "pretty good" I'm saying pretty good isn't good enough. If you look at how this team is playing MCW and James are having to do too much. Triche while he is making more mistakes he is a least being more assertive CJ is not being more assertive. Right now we need a more balanced offense and I think CJ needs to add that balance.

Gabjon · Dec 18, 2012

RF2044 said:
I see--so the purpose of this thread was to lament a dropoff in CJ's production that hasn't occurred yet. Okay...

1] No, I don't think CJ's numbers will drop. I think he'll remain very consistent around this level throughout the season, particularly because I think his minutes will increase during BE play.

2] I couldn't care less what he averages, so long as the team continues to win. Just like last year, when people used to knock KJ for "only" scoring 13 PPG, the objective is team success, not stats.

Last years team was much deeper and more balances than this one. That is why I am harping on CJ's performances because this team needs more balance and he is a junior so it is time to step it up. Below is a quick depth chart comparison between this year and last. I have bold two positions where I believe we have no shot at being as good as we were last year. I have italicized where I feel we are better than last year but its not an even swop. There is a huge drop off from Dion to Cooney (not a slam on Cooney) and there is almost as big of a drop off form Fab to DC2 (Fab finished around the rim!). MWC and James are not a cure all for those loses. James can be face guarded and removed from the game and MWC still needs to prove he can consistently hit a jumper (Scoop hit big shots all year long). So where are the points going to come from? Moqui thinks they should come from DC2 but when was the last time we had a freshmen center that was ready for that? I thought and still hold out hope for Roc, but if you look at the chart who is next man up? CJ in my opinion and I believe he can do it, but he is not right now IMO.

2011-2012 2012-2013
PG Scoop PG MCW
SG Triche SG Triche
Bench Guard Bench Guard
Waiters Cooney

Wings Wings
Kris Jo CJ
CJ James
James Grant

Bigs Bigs
Fab DC2
Roc Roc
Baye Baye

orangefan13 · Dec 19, 2012

I would compare Cooney more to Triche last year. 9.5 ppg vs 14.
Triche is taking on Dions scoring role. Its taking 8 more mpg game for him to match Dion. He needs to keep that up averaging 13-14.
Southerland matches Joseph more. Hes more of a perimeter scoring forward then CJ, but he needs to stay consistant in KJo's 14 range.

Cooney, Fair(with his extra minutes adding to more ppg), Xmas/Dajuan/Keita (outscoring last years bigs)and Grant need to make up for last years 9.5 ppg from Triche.

JB is tough to read. We ran some isolation last game with Triche creating off the dribble some (despite only 8 points) and Southerland knocking them down(but he was wide open against awful defense).

If there is one thing m2m does its get tighter as the year goes on. Thats where post up and isolation come in. Reasons guys like Rak need more then 5 shots per game (his current average).

James has to stay near KJO's 14 and consistantly. Triche needs to stay near Dions 14 with more minutes.
Thats already asking enough of those two.
The rest need to outscore themselves last year so they can help make up for Triches 9.5 on top of it.

SWC75 · Dec 19, 2012

Gabjon said:
I'm not saying his numbers aren't "pretty good" I'm saying pretty good isn't good enough. If you look at how this team is playing MCW and James are having to do too much. Triche while he is making more mistakes he is a least being more assertive CJ is not being more assertive. Right now we need a more balanced offense and I think CJ needs to add that balance.

His per game averages might actually go up in Big East play, (even if his per minute averages won't), because he'll play more minutes, being one of the veteran players on the team.

My big point is that he plays better when he lets the game come to him than when he tries to take over and play like a "star". I don't want him trying to do "more". I want him to do what he does best.