College basketball is all about guard play

[Alsacs]

Ennis has been special the entire season, but JB has only given minutes to 2 other guards the whole ACC season in Trevor Cooney and Mike Gbinije and the fact is he doesn't develop the guards during the season and basically gives all Freshman except Jonny Flynn and Tyler Ennis 1 season on the pine. It leaves us with only 3 options during league play and if 2 of them struggle like Cooney and Gbinjie have been since the Notre Dame game we only have 1 guard. I get JB wants to break these guys into the system, but it gets rather annoying to see Groundhog Day year after year and JB stays stubborn. Our guard play outside of Ennis has been pretty bad this conference season and its not because we have a lack of talent on this team. It gets rather frustrating to watch. I don't expect the Freshman to be perfect, but the fact we have only use 7 guys and if 2 of them are off we struggle. Expecting consistency from non-Seniors is really tough to expect in college basketball and it lets a lot of inferior teams hang around. Our guys are broken down and tired. We can still make a run because college basketball is down, but its annoying. Also, yes I know Jim Boeheim will forget more than I know, but he isn't above legitimate criticism.

 

[KaiserUEO]

yes, the whole world knows guards are key to college.

and because of that JB almost always plays freshmen guards. in addition to flynn and ennis, Hart and Gmac also played, some guy named Pearl, Autry did too. edelin and deshaun got considerable time.

so...fail.

the problem this year is the 4 & 5. not the 1 & 2.

but lets face it, they lost DC and have been playing without grant for basically 2 weeks. yell JB for not getting roberson more ready when DC went down.

for he definetly cant make cooney shoot better and he cant give G a higher hoop iq.

 

[Alsacs]

yes, the whole world knows guards are key to college.

and because of that JB almost always plays freshmen guards. in addition to flynn and ennis, Hart and Gmac also played, some guy named Pearl, Autry did too. edelin and deshaun got considerable time. so fail.

the problem this year is the 4 & 5. not the 1 & 2.

but lets face it, they lost DC and have been playing without grant for basically 2 weeks. yell JB for not getting roberson more ready when DC went down.

for he definetly cant make cooney shoot better and he cant give G a higher hoop iq.

I forgot Gerry Mac and I should have said since 2003. Our 2 guard is killing us not out PF. Grant has been hurt these past 3 games Maryland, Virginia, Georgia Tech. Grant played decently at Duke and was more consistent than Cooney has been.

Cooney/Gbinije have sucked the entire ACC season outside of Cooney's Notre Dame game. If we had a consistent 2 guard it would stretch the defense and give the forwards more space to roam and score. The center possession in Christmas hasn't been given the touches and only gets 3.6 shot attempts a game, and he is shooting 62% from the field and 71% from the foul line. He is NOT the problem. The guards aren't getting him the ball and the kid posts up a lot. Guard play is the problem, but good job good effort trying to tell me fail.

 

[Bayside44]

Ennis has been special the entire season, but JB has only given minutes to 2 other guards the whole ACC season in Trevor Cooney and Mike Gbinije and the fact is he doesn't develop the guards during the season and basically gives all Freshman except Jonny Flynn and Tyler Ennis 1 season on the pine. It leaves us with only 3 options during league play and if 2 of them struggle like Cooney and Gbinjie have been since the Notre Dame game we only have 1 guard. I get JB wants to break these guys into the system, but it gets rather annoying to see Groundhog Day year after year and JB stays stubborn. Our guard play outside of Ennis has been pretty bad this conference season and its not because we have a lack of talent on this team. It gets rather frustrating to watch. I don't expect the Freshman to be perfect, but the fact we have only use 7 guys and if 2 of them are off we struggle. Expecting consistency from non-Seniors is really tough to expect in college basketball and it lets a lot of inferior teams hang around. Our guys are broken down and tired. We can still make a run because college basketball is down, but its annoying. Also, yes I know Jim Boeheim will forget more than I know, but he isn't above legitimate criticism.

Our title and 2 other title games came on the backs of our forwards.

Cooney is a step down from a lot of guys we had at 2 in the last 10 years but if we had a Devo or Andy we still would be up a creek without Fair and a healthy Grant.

 

[SaltLakeOrange]

I forgot Gerry Mac and I should have said since 2003. Our 2 guard is killing us not out PF. Grant has been hurt these past 3 games Maryland, Virginia, Georgia Tech. Grant played decently at Duke and was more consistent than Cooney has been.

Cooney/Gbinije have sucked the entire ACC season outside of Cooney's Notre Dame game. If we had a consistent 2 guard it would stretch the defense and give the forwards more space to roam and score. The center possession in Christmas hasn't been given the touches and only gets 3.6 shot attempts a game, and he is shooting 62% from the field and 71% from the foul line. He is NOT the problem. The guards aren't getting him the ball and the kid posts up a lot. Guard play is the problem, but good job good effort trying to tell me fail.

I think you're both right. Trevor is thinking too much and having to work way too hard for his shots. He just needs to freaking shoot the ball and not worry about it. If we can somehow work inside out or get more breakouts, Trevor will get better looks. But, you're right, he's been horribly inconsistent.

Alsacs is right in saying our 4 and 5 have killed us. The 4 since Grant got hurt and the 5 offensively all season (sans one game). RAK missed an easy game winner against BC and has missed these bunnies all year. He's not a consistent scoring threat.

This team will go as far as CJ, Tyler, Trevor and Jerami take us...no more and no less.

 

[KaiserUEO]

I forgot Gerry Mac and I should have said since 2003. Our 2 guard is killing us not out PF. Grant has been hurt these past 3 games Maryland, Virginia, Georgia Tech. Grant played decently at Duke and was more consistent than Cooney has been.

Cooney/Gbinije have sucked the entire ACC season outside of Cooney's Notre Dame game. If we had a consistent 2 guard it would stretch the defense and give the forwards more space to roam and score. The center possession in Christmas hasn't been given the touches and only gets 3.6 shot attempts a game, and he is shooting 62% from the field and 71% from the foul line. He is NOT the problem. The guards aren't getting him the ball and the kid posts up a lot. Guard play is the problem, but good job good effort trying to tell me fail.

your 1st post was nothing but a shot at cooney.

and you tried to mask it by blaming JB about god knows what.

not sure what else it couldve been.

unless you think G should be better for whatever reason.

or do you want more patterson??

what. do. you. want???

what is the solution??

ennis to pass to rak?? is that it?? that seems to be your new point in the 2nd post. couldve just started a whole new thread with that one, for its not in line with the OP.

or am i right and you just want cooney to make more shots??

help me out here.

 

[rrlbees]

Anyone watching this team even when we were winning would recognize that the offensive issues aren't one player. Every bad possession it's one thing or another. Missing shots. Missing FTs. Dribbling off our own feet. Missing an open player. Not enough or quick enough ball movement. When you score the number of points this team has been, it's not one player or even two players.

 

[Alsacs]

Our title and 2 other title games came on the backs of our forwards.

Cooney is a step down from a lot of guys we had at 2 in the last 10 years but if we had a Devo or Andy we still would be up a creek without Fair and a healthy Grant.

I don't disagree Fair is our best player and healthy Grant would be 3rd, but if you gave this team Devo or Andy at the 2 guard we would be better. Cooney has improved a lot from his rFr to rSoph year, but he is one the killing this offense right now. He will get better over the next 2 years, but having no guard depth and having to play Cooney/Gbinije who are being locked down on offense and give the defense no reason to not clog the middle and make it hard for Grant or Fair to do anything, but shoot a jumper has hurt our offense considering we aren't running in transition. Rautins was mainly an outside shooter, but the kid worked a lot harder to get open and was a factor. Rautins was lucky JB had played more depth when he was younger, but the kid didn't kill us on offense. I like Cooney, but his struggles are the reason teams are clamping down on us. If Patterson/Johnson can't play any defense for 2-4 minutes a half then I guess we are in trouble. Cooney is gassed out there. The top of the zone is easier to play than the wing and with teams stall balling the crap out of us they would probably only be playing 4-5 possessions in the first half to see what can kind of offensive spark they can give you.

 

[Alsacs]

Anyone watching this team even when we were winning would recognize that the offensive issues aren't one player. Every bad possession it's one thing or another. Missing shots. Missing FTs. Dribbling off our own feet. Missing an open player. Not enough or quick enough ball movement. When you score the number of points this team has been, it's not one player or even two players.

We have 5 offensive threats
1. Fair- he can shoot the mid-range shot, can drive to his left, has a decent floater, can shoot the 3 pt shot(he is better than his numbers this year)
2. Ennis- he has a killer floater, can drive well, can shoot the 3 ball decently, his problem is he is too unselfish some times, but these past games without Grant has done a great job being more aggressive and giving us the offense we need.
3. Grant- he has a good post-up game, he crashes the offensive boards the best of anyone on the team and gets garbage points, he has an inconsistent jump shot that has improved. He has no 3 pt range though. Best athlete on the team
4. Cooney- he can shoot the 3pt shot well when given a clean look, he can drive the ball decently, is a good athlete, inconsistent mid-range game, the kid needs to work like Andy Rautins on getting himself open with screens, ball fakes, mid-range game. Cooney has been inconsistent since conference play outside of the Notre Dame because they played zone and Cooney got open looks.
5. Rak Christmas- the kid has a decent hook shot, and has underrated post game. He is only getting 3.6 shots a game and that is down from last year's 4.1 shots a game. He is shooting 62% from the field and 71% from the foul line. He gets dunks and put backs, but isn't given the touches he deserves as he has improved.

Gbinije, Keita don't give the team much outside of offensive rebounds from Keita and open 3 pt from Gbinije.

Fair, Ennis, Grant have been pretty consistent most of the conference year each has struggled a couple of times, but Cooney hasn't given the team that 4th scorer during conference play and since teams are packing in the middle and he hasn't gotten open looks in the halfcourt we have struggled.

 

[Trueblue25]

Cooney's assist numbers need to improve. He's not hitting shots and he's not creating offense for others. Quite frankly that makes him dead weight.

Ennis needs to get better at setting up and facilitating the offense. It's been to many iso and circus shots between him and CJ.

The rest of the team needs to move when they don't have the ball, basic rules of basketball.

 

[rrlbees]

We have 5 offensive threats
1. Fair- he can shoot the mid-range shot, can drive to his left, has a decent floater, can shoot the 3 pt shot(he is better than his numbers this year)
2. Ennis- he has a killer floater, can drive well, can shoot the 3 ball decently, his problem is he is too unselfish some times, but these past games without Grant has done a great job being more aggressive and giving us the offense we need.
3. Grant- he has a good post-up game, he crashes the offensive boards the best of anyone on the team and gets garbage points, he has an inconsistent jump shot that has improved. He has no 3 pt range though. Best athlete on the team
4. Cooney- he can shoot the 3pt shot well when given a clean look, he can drive the ball decently, is a good athlete, inconsistent mid-range game, the kid needs to work like Andy Rautins on getting himself open with screens, ball fakes, mid-range game. Cooney has been inconsistent since conference play outside of the Notre Dame because they played zone and Cooney got open looks.
5. Rak Christmas- the kid has a decent hook shot, and has underrated post game. He is only getting 3.6 shots a game and that is down from last year's 4.1 shots a game. He is shooting 62% from the field and 71% from the foul line. He gets dunks and put backs, but isn't given the touches he deserves as he has improved.

Gbinije, Keita don't give the team much outside of offensive rebounds from Keita and open 3 pt from Gbinije.

Fair, Ennis, Grant have been pretty consistent most of the conference year each has struggled a couple of times, but Cooney hasn't given the team that 4th scorer during conference play and since teams are packing in the middle and he hasn't gotten open looks in the halfcourt we have struggled.

None of that addresses the offensive issues of this team. I could, but won't, go player by player and point out their contribution to the problem.

 

[Alsacs]

None of that addresses the offensive issues of this team. I could, but won't, go player by player and point out their contribution to the problem.

I am trying NOT to be rude and blame a player or the coaching staff for the offensive issues of this team. Our problem isn't exactly 1 person's fault, but it could be boiled down to this. Teams are clogging the middle as they don't fear we our outside threats as long as they m2m on Cooney. We can't stretch the defense thus we rely to heavily on Fair/Ennis.

 

[two3zone]

Cooney's assist numbers need to improve. He's not hitting shots and he's not creating offense for others. Quite frankly that makes him dead weight. Ennis needs to get better at setting up and facilitating the offense. It's been to many iso and circus shots between him and CJ. The rest of the team needs to move when they don't have the ball, basic rules of basketball.

They won't improve and it doesn't matter who's playing the 2. We play a slow half court ISO offense where our point guard has the ball for 27 seconds. Where does a shooting guard get his assists from?

 

[SaltLakeOrange]

I am trying NOT to be rude and blame a player or the coaching staff for the offensive issues of this team. Our problem isn't exactly 1 person's fault, but it could be boiled down to this. Teams are clogging the middle as they don't fear we our outside threats as long as they m2m on Cooney. We can't stretch the defense thus we rely to heavily on Fair/Ennis.

We need to hit some jump shots...not necessarily threes either. We just need enough to keep defenses honest. We stopped hitting these shots and have suffered since.

 

[KaiserUEO]

We need to hit some jump shots...not necessarily threes either. We just need enough to keep defenses honest. We stopped hitting these shots and have suffered since.

yep.

cant tell you how many times all i can think of is...just get 2.

and they cant do it, for the reasons listed by bees.

the Orange beat bc and gatech just by making a couple of 5 footers. but they either cant get 1 off or they miss.

everybody.

so frustrating.

i wont even touch the FT problems...

 

[Cusefan0307]

yep.

cant tell you how many times all i can think of is...just get 2.

and they cant do it, for the reasons listed by bees.

the Orange beat bc and gatech just by making a couple of 5 footers. but they either cant get 1 off or they miss.

everybody.

so frustrating.

i wont even touch the FT problems...

I'll touch the Free Throw problems. As bad as we played last night, we still would of won if we made them. Why Ennis tried to dunk the ball after his steal when we were down 4 I have no idea. He missed both of them. If he makes the free throws or lays it in we are down 2. Thats why i think our slump is a confidence issue more than anything.

 

[Madbiker]

I forgot Gerry Mac and I should have said since 2003. Our 2 guard is killing us not out PF. Grant has been hurt these past 3 games Maryland, Virginia, Georgia Tech. Grant played decently at Duke and was more consistent than Cooney has been.

Cooney/Gbinije have sucked the entire ACC season outside of Cooney's Notre Dame game. If we had a consistent 2 guard it would stretch the defense and give the forwards more space to roam and score. The center possession in Christmas hasn't been given the touches and only gets 3.6 shot attempts a game, and he is shooting 62% from the field and 71% from the foul line. He is NOT the problem. The guards aren't getting him the ball and the kid posts up a lot. Guard play is the problem, but good job good effort trying to tell me fail.

I agree with you that a lot of our problems are due to Cooney's poor shooting at the SG in ACC play. He is 7-37, 18.9% in the 5 game slide beginning with BC. Even before that, except for ND, he has not shot well but it was covered up by some exceptional games by Ennis, Grant, CJ etc. If that doesn't change SU will make a very quick exit from the post season. This a very thin team. I know the staff didn't plan for MCW to leave after 2 years. But you have to wonder why they recruited 4 players who cannot contribute as freshmen -- Roberson, Patterson, BJ, Chino. Not saying they won't develop into contributors eventually but they needed to get 1 or 2 kids at a higher level to contribute more immediately. Next year I wouldn't be surprised to see Joseph get PT along side Ennis if Cooney's shooting problems continue.

 

[Alsacs]

I agree with you that a lot of our problems are due to Cooney's poor shooting at the SG in ACC play. He is 7-37, 18.9% in the 5 game slide beginning with BC. Even before that, except for ND, he has not shot well but it was covered up by some exceptional games by Ennis, Grant, CJ etc. If that doesn't change SU will make a very quick exit from the post season. This a very thin team. I know the staff didn't plan for MCW to leave after 2 years. But you have to wonder why they recruited 4 players who cannot contribute as freshmen -- Roberson, Patterson, BJ, Chino. Not saying they won't develop into contributors eventually but they needed to get 1 or 2 kids at a higher level to contribute more immediately. Next year I wouldn't be surprised to see Joseph get PT along side Ennis if Cooney's shooting problems continue.

We have 3 scholarship players out of 13 giving this team absolutely nothing Patterson, Johnson, Chino, and a 4th scholarship player in Hart who is a scholarship walk-on to help the APR most likely. Then a 5th scholarship player in Dejuan Coleman who has been out for the season.

5/13= 38% of all your scholarship players have given this team nothing and that is the choice of Jim Boeheim not an indictment on those players.
Then you have another 1 player Tyler Roberson who JB doesn't want to play, but needs the extra body.

This team is relying on 7 scholarship players C.J. Fair, Tyler Ennis, Jerami Grant, Rak Christmas, Trevor Cooney, Mike Gbinije, Baye Keita.

I don't get why 5 of our 13 scholarship players aren't more developed from practicing everyday from October till March and only feel 7 are ready to play when you have an injury to one of the players you expected to contribute goes down. The coach needs to coach them up over a course of a season and don't expect any of them to be stars, but 1 or 2 of them should be able to be role players. Instead our 7 guys are worn down. Fair/Ennis practically play 40 minutes a night and that has to wear you down.

 

[Trueblue25]

They won't improve and it doesn't matter who's playing the 2. We play a slow half court ISO offense where our point guard has the ball for 27 seconds. Where does a shooting guard get his assists from?

Cooney probably touches the ball on at least 65% of our possessions. Of those possessions I say he has an open shot 25% of the time.

I'd like to see him put the ball on the floor, drive and look for open players when the defense switches to him. It's basic basketball. An athletic guard (Cooney) penetrates and drive, a defender or 2 steps up to oppose his drive leaving an open man under or around the basket.

These are the simplest ways offense is create.

 

[two3zone]

Cooney probably touches the ball on at least 65% of our possessions. Of those possessions I say he has an open shot 25% of the time. I'd like to see him put the ball on the floor, drive and look for open players when the defense switches to him. It's basic basketball. An athletic guard (Cooney) penetrates and drive, a defender or 2 steps up to oppose his drive leaving an open man under or around the basket. These are the simplest ways offense is create.

Cooney doesn't touch the ball 65% of the time, I gather is around half that and even then he isn't open 25% of the time.

I know this sounds crazy, but maybe JB doesn't want him to drive and wants him to only shoot jumpers and will leave the driving to Ennis, Fair and Grant. Personally i think that makes sense as all three probably percentagewise are better finishing after a drive than Cooney.

If it was as clear as day as you're making it out to be I think our guys and coaching staff would be all over it. Cooney isn't driving because he's just not great at it right now and there are better options to do that with higher percentages of success. Cooney drives three times and fails all three, or Ennis/ or Fair driving with a better success rate. I'll take the later.

 

[dollarbill44]

yes, the whole world knows guards are key to college.

and because of that JB almost always plays freshmen guards. in addition to flynn and ennis, Hart and Gmac also played, some guy named Pearl, Autry did too. edelin and deshaun got considerable time.

so...fail.

the problem this year is the 4 & 5. not the 1 & 2.

but lets face it, they lost DC and have been playing without grant for basically 2 weeks. yell JB for not getting roberson more ready when DC went down.

for he definetly cant make cooney shoot better and he cant give G a higher hoop iq.

Don't forget Triche. Alsacs is off-base right from the start because a large percentage of JBs guards over the years played significant minutes as Freshmen.

I also don't get where basketball (at any level) is all about guard play. A solid PG is important, to be sure, but so is a solid swing-man and a solid big (4/5). There are many different combinations you can use to make to get a very good team, but the emphasis has to be on the whole of the team. You will not have sustained success focusing on one position to the neglect of another. The '03 NC team would not have won without Melo. But, it also wouldn't have won without a host of other players: Edelin, GMac, Duany, Warrick, McNeil/Forth and Pace. They all contributed big plays along the way (yes, even Forth made some big plays). The '87 team, the '96 team and last year's team all had multiple major contributors.

 

[dollarbill44]

Cooney probably touches the ball on at least 65% of our possessions. Of those possessions I say he has an open shot 25% of the time.

I'd like to see him put the ball on the floor, drive and look for open players when the defense switches to him. It's basic basketball. An athletic guard (Cooney) penetrates and drive, a defender or 2 steps up to oppose his drive leaving an open man under or around the basket.

These are the simplest ways offense is create.

The problem is, that without JG, our open man is someone who really struggles to put the ball in the hole by going up strong(BMK, Rak, silent G). The opposition knows they can double the driver and still get back to make a play on the other guy. Watch closely, next game. Watch when Ennis or Cooney dribble past the high screen and both defenders go with him, leaving the screener all alone. It happened a ton of times last night where Ennis, Cooney and Fair tried to drive, only to have to back off and pull it back out.

 

[Alsacs]

Don't forget Triche. Alsacs is off-base right from the start because a large percentage of JBs guards over the years played significant minutes as Freshmen.

I also don't get where basketball (at any level) is all about guard play. A solid PG is important, to be sure, but so is a solid swing-man and a solid big (4/5). There are many different combinations you can use to make to get a very good team, but the emphasis has to be on the whole of the team. You will not have sustained success focusing on one position to the neglect of another. The '03 NC team would not have won without Melo. But, it also wouldn't have won without a host of other players: Edelin, GMac, Duany, Warrick, McNeil/Forth and Pace. They all contributed big plays along the way (yes, even Forth made some big plays). The '87 team, the '96 team and last year's team all had multiple major contributors.

I will say I was wrong about the statement not many freshman played right away, but just ignore my complete point why don't you. The last 2 years in a row JB has been relying on 3 guards for an entire season and this has allowed our team to struggle due to a lack of depth. If your going to waste 4 of your 13 scholarships on people and not give them ANY playing time and then have a 5th get hurt and not want to play a 6th because you don't feel he is ready then don't be shocked when those 7 guys you play struggle like we have and you lose games. We have 3 guards and 2 of them have been bad during conference play outside of 1 game.

However, good ahead and miss my point. In 2003, we had 4 guards McNamara, Duany, Edelin, Pace. Of course you need good front-court players, but in college basketball to win 6 games you need consistency from your backcourt.

 

[dollarbill44]

I will say I was wrong about the statement not many freshman played right away, but just ignore my complete point why don't you. The last 2 years in a row JB has been relying on 3 guards for an entire season and this has allowed our team to struggle due to a lack of depth. If your going to waste 4 of your 13 scholarships on people and not give them ANY playing time and then have a 5th get hurt and not want to play a 6th because you don't feel he is ready then don't be shocked when those 7 guys you play struggle like we have and you lose games. We have 3 guards and 2 of them have been bad during conference play outside of 1 game.

However, good ahead and miss my point. In 2003, we had 4 guards McNamara, Duany, Edelin, Pace. Of course you need good front-court players, but in college basketball to win 6 games you need consistency from your backcourt.

What is your main point? Is it that guard play is supremely important or is it that we haven't developed enough depth at the 4 and 5 positions (or is it overall depth)? Duany (a senior) was used as a 2/3 that year. Same with Pace (btw, he made plays when he came in, which is why his PT increased as the season went on). Neither of them were really guards (Duany was a 3 before '03 and Pace was a 3 after that year), they just played there out of necessity, much like G has been used at the 4 since JG went down. Maybe JB was just smarter that year or maybe he had players that were more able to contribute when called on than he does this year?:noidea:

 

[Trueblue25]

The problem is, that without JG, our open man is someone who really struggles to put the ball in the hole by going up strong(BMK, Rak, silent G). The opposition knows they can double the driver and still get back to make a play on the other guy. Watch closely, next game. Watch when Ennis or Cooney dribble past the high screen and both defenders go with him, leaving the screener all alone. It happened a ton of times last night where Ennis, Cooney and Fair tried to drive, only to have to back off and pull it back out.

Rak plays it perfectly in my opinion. Far too many times BMK is the open man though. Gbinije to his credit had a big lay up in the last minute of the game. Just wish the kid would show some more fire.