College basketball is all about guard play

[dollarbill44]

Rak plays it perfectly in my opinion. Far too many times BMK is the open man though. Gbinije to his credit had a big lay up in the last minute of the game. Just wish the kid would show some more fire.

Rak had been, but the last couple of games, he seems to have gone into a shell. GTs center stuffed him twice last night and he didn't try again. G caught a nice break in the last minute when CJ got rejected right into G's hands for an unsettled layup. In a structured offense, he has trouble getting his shots up in traffic. Since the injury, BMK can't even try to go up strong. Instead he looks to pass the ball back out. If Coleman wasn't hurt, Baye wouldn't even be playing in his current physical state.

 

[Trueblue25]

Has BMK ever gone up "Strong" ?

 

[Alsacs]

What is your main point? Is it that guard play is supremely important or is it that we haven't developed enough depth at the 4 and 5 positions (or is it overall depth)? Duany (a senior) was used as a 2/3 that year. Same with Pace (btw, he made plays when he came in, which is why his PT increased as the season went on). Neither of them were really guards (Duany was a 3 before '03 and Pace was a 3 after that year), they just played there out of necessity, much like G has been used at the 4 since JG went down. Maybe JB was just smarter that year or maybe he had players that were more able to contribute when called on than he does this year?:noidea:

Duany/Edelin, McNamara/Edelin, Duany/McNamara(was the starting lineup), McNamara/Pace were all back-court combinations I wouldn't fight the label that Pace played their because of earning those minutes and he wasn't sitting Melo or Hak.

Our problem is that guard play is the most important position in college basketball. I agree you need good forwards to win it all and we have had good front court every year for the most part. However, because we have no depth in the backcourt due to the fact JB is only using 3 guys and has 3 scholarship guards just wasting away on the bench and 2 of the guards he has played Cooney and Gbinije have struggled and as a result our back-court play in ACC conference play has been sub-par. Ennis has been special and more than carried his own. I don't want to compare this year to last year I am just making the point that this is the 2nd year in a row JB has only used 3 guards. Last year we went on a run because our defense was ungodly good in the Tournament and we have a 6'6" MCW and 6'4" Triche disturbing passing lanes better than Cooney and Ennis who are 1 and 2 in the ACC steals it just shows how much better our defense was better last year. JB was not smarter he rode an excellent defense and sub-par offense to the Final Four. Last year he had Southerland, Grant, Fair and barely played Grant when Southerland was eligible. Our problem is we have scholarship guards that are completely wasting away when depth is a problem.

 

[Alsacs]

Has BMK ever gone up "Strong" ?

Dude BMK is not the problem as he isn't playing for his offense. His contributions on offense should be nothing more than garbage man off the offensive glass and put backs.

 

[Trueblue25]

Dude BMK is not the problem as he isn't playing for his offense. His contributions on offense should be nothing more than garbage man off the offensive glass and put backs.

I wasn't blaming BMK, at all.

 

[two3zone]

Dude BMK is not the problem as he isn't playing for his offense. His contributions on offense should be nothing more than garbage man off the offensive glass and put backs.

He personally isn't a problem but it is a problem when he is a total non factor on the floor. He could be by himself underneath the basket and the opponent doesn't need to worry about him. When he is on the floor the reasoning is simple why we can't drive, it's because whomever is guarding him is so slacked off of him it makes for an easy double team to whoever is driving especially knowing the ball isn't getting dished to BMK.

 

[NashvilleOrange]

I watched Antonio Barton go 5 from 7 from 3 this past weekend against Vanderbilt. He would make all the difference at this point but maybe he never really considered coming here this past summer.

 

[KaiserUEO]

I will say I was wrong about the statement not many freshman played right away, but just ignore my complete point why don't you. The last 2 years in a row JB has been relying on 3 guards for an entire season and this has allowed our team to struggle due to a lack of depth. If your going to waste 4 of your 13 scholarships on people and not give them ANY playing time and then have a 5th get hurt and not want to play a 6th because you don't feel he is ready then don't be shocked when those 7 guys you play struggle like we have and you lose games. We have 3 guards and 2 of them have been bad during conference play outside of 1 game.

However, good ahead and miss my point. In 2003, we had 4 guards McNamara, Duany, Edelin, Pace. Of course you need good front-court players, but in college basketball to win 6 games you need consistency from your backcourt.

your point is a bad 1.

JB ALWAYS plays 3 guards. thats it.

add Devo to the freshman with serious PT list too.

please dont base your arguement on duany and pace as 2s from 11 years ago.

what other year did JB play 4??

 

[rrlbees]

They won't improve and it doesn't matter who's playing the 2. We play a slow half court ISO offense where our point guard has the ball for 27 seconds. Where does a shooting guard get his assists from?

Someone who gets it.

 

[Briancuse]

Dude BMK is not the problem as he isn't playing for his offense. His contributions on offense should be nothing more than garbage man off the offensive glass and put backs.

He is a senior, he should be able to contribute a little on the offensive end.

 

[rrlbees]

Duany/Edelin, McNamara/Edelin, Duany/McNamara(was the starting lineup), McNamara/Pace were all back-court combinations I wouldn't fight the label that Pace played their because of earning those minutes and he wasn't sitting Melo or Hak. Our problem is that guard play is the most important position in college basketball. I agree you need good forwards to win it all and we have had good front court every year for the most part. However, because we have no depth in the backcourt due to the fact JB is only using 3 guys and has 3 scholarship guards just wasting away on the bench and 2 of the guards he has played Cooney and Gbinije have struggled and as a result our back-court play in ACC conference play has been sub-par. Ennis has been special and more than carried his own. I don't want to compare this year to last year I am just making the point that this is the 2nd year in a row JB has only used 3 guards. Last year we went on a run because our defense was ungodly good in the Tournament and we have a 6'6" MCW and 6'4" Triche disturbing passing lanes better than Cooney and Ennis who are 1 and 2 in the ACC steals it just shows how much better our defense was better last year. JB was not smarter he rode an excellent defense and sub-par offense to the Final Four. Last year he had Southerland, Grant, Fair and barely played Grant when Southerland was eligible. Our problem is we have scholarship guards that are completely wasting away when depth is a problem.

You keep naming backcourts and guards who weren't scorers, with the exception of GMac. Syracuse runs an offense geared towards forwards. Always has always will. Doesn't mean we can't have successful guards.

 

[KaiserUEO]

You keep naming backcourts and guards who weren't scorers, with the exception of GMac. Syracuse runs an offense geared towards forwards. Always has always will. Doesn't mean we can't have successful guards.

no. hes naming 1 team.

and using where the lined up on defense as their de facto position.

and its a team that had a basketball player on it who was better than anyone in college by about a million leagues.

on offense, if we looked at tapes, i bet Melo was sometimes playing the 2 and duany and/or pace was the 3...just to exploit the opposing team.

al, just go ahead and call Melo a guard too while youre at it.

 

[dollarbill44]

He is a senior, he should be able to contribute a little on the offensive end.

He did before he hurt his knee. It wasn't much, but the opponent at least had to guard him as he would occasionally score off the pick and roll and he could jump for put-backs. He can't even dunk right now.

 

[Alsacs]

I consider atleast 8 mpg as an amount that defines you as a player in the rotation. Here are mpg of guards since 2003. I concede some of these minutes may have been at the 3 during small ball and some players were hard to define. I consider Nichols a 3 on defense, but Paul Harris played the top I put both and so you can cancel one of them off as a forward. I considered Nichols a 2 guard, but if you want to call him the SF and Harris the poor SG then fine.

In 2002-2003
Gerry McNamara 35.3mpg
Kueth Duany 27 mpg
Billy Edelin 23.2 mpg
Josh Pace 14.7 mpg

2003-2004
Gerry McNamara 36.2 mpg
Billy Edelin 33.1 mpg
Demetrius Nichols 17mpg
Louie McCroskey 14.1 mpg

2004-2005
Gerry McNamara 35.6 mpg
Louie McCroskey 19.9 mpg
Billy Edelin 15.7 mpg
Demetrius Nichols 12.6 mpg
Josh Wright 8.5 mpg

2005-2006
Gerry McNamara 35.2 mpg
Eric Devendorf 27.1 mpg
Josh Wright 12.9mpg
Louie McCroskey 14 mpg
Andy Rautins 8 mpg

2006-2007 (Nichols played 2 guard and Harris was the SF if you want to call Harris the 2 I will post both and you decide)
Demetrius Nichols 34.8mpg
Eric Devendorf 30.9 mpg
Paul Harris 21.9 mpg
Josh Wright 24.1 mpg
Andy Rautins 21.2 mpg

2007-2008
Jonny Flynn 35.5mpg
Eric Devendorf 34.2 mpg
Scoop Jardine 19.2 mpg

2008-2009
Jonny Flynn 37.3mpg
Eric Devendorf 33.2 mpg
Andy Rautins 19,9mpg

2009-2010
Andy Rautins 32.5mpg
Scoop Jardine 22.2mpg
Brandon Triche 21.mpg
Mookie Jones 1o.5mpg

2010-2011
Scoop Jardine 32.1 mpg
Brandon Triche 28.8mpg
Dion Waiters 16.2mpg
Mookie Jones 8.1mpg

2011-2012
Scoop Jardine 25.2 mpg
Dion Waiters 24.1 mpg
Brandon Triche 22.5 mpg
Michael Carter-Williams 10.3 mpg

2012-2013
Michael Carter-Williams 35.2 mpg
Brandon Triche 33.8mpg
Trevor Cooney 11.2mpg

2013-2014
Tyler Ennis 35.3mpg
Trevor Cooney 32.4mpg
Michael Gbinije 14.7mpg

 

[Alsacs]

My point is Boeheim's is wasting 3 guards on the bench Johnson, Patterson, and 3rd is a walkon who I am glad isn't playing. If Boeheim thought he could win a NC before the season with just Ennis, Cooney, Gbinije he wouldn't have gone after Memphis 5 yr player Antonio Barton like he did in the offseason before Barton went to Tennessee. That Hart scholarship JB tried to earmark for Barton, but he chose Tennessee instead we need 4 guards that can play and when you have 13 scholarships 2 of them shouldn't used on projects that can't play. If JB wanted to save 1 for a project fine, but using 2/13 scholarships on guards who give you nothing is not smart and then using another 2 on Roberson/Chino on front court players and then a 5th on a walkon means your using 8 scholarships on contributors and 5 on projects/APR guy.

 

[KaiserUEO]

I'll give u 04 a bit, barely 05...& 06? Fine, its yours.

Every other year it's 3 guards.

Mookie, does not count, neither does mcw in 12. The rest are all combos, more of 3s at that.

And u know it.

Guess Mr 900 doesn't think much of Patterson right now, I'm ok with that. His time will come.

I'm also ok with giving scholies to get the apr up. It's not effecting wins & losses.

 

[rrlbees]

I consider atleast 8 mpg as an amount that defines you as a player in the rotation. Here are mpg of guards since 2003. I concede some of these minutes may have been at the 3 during small ball and some players were hard to define. I consider Nichols a 3, but Paul Harris played the top I put both and so you can cancel one of them off as a forward. I considered Nichols a 2 guard, but if you want to call him the SF and Harris the poor SG then fine. In 2002-2003 Gerry McNamara 35.3mpg Kueth Duany 27 mpg Billy Edelin 23.2 mpg Josh Pace 14.7 mpg 2003-2004 Gerry McNamara 36.2 mpg Billy Edelin 33.1 mpg Demetrius Nichols 17mpg Louie McCroskey 14.1 mpg 2004-2005 Gerry McNamara 35.6 mpg Louie McCroskey 19.9 mpg Billy Edelin 15.7 mpg Demetrius Nichols 12.6 mpg Josh Wright 8.5 mpg 2005-2006 Gerry McNamara 35.2 mpg Eric Devendorf 27.1 mpg Josh Wright 12.9mpg Louie McCroskey 14 mpg Andy Rautins 8 mpg 2006-2007 (Nichols played 2 guard and Harris was the SF if you want to call Harris the 2 I will post both and you decide) Demetrius Nichols 34.8mpg Eric Devendorf 30.9 mpg Paul Harris 21.9 mpg Josh Wright 24.1 mpg Andy Rautins 21.2 mpg 2007-2008 Jonny Flynn 35.5mpg Eric Devendorf 34.2 mpg Scoop Jardine 19.2 mpg 2008-2009 Jonny Flynn 37.3mpg Eric Devendorf 33.2 mpg Andy Rautins 19,9mpg 2009-2010 Andy Rautins 32.5mpg Scoop Jardine 22.2mpg Brandon Triche 21.mpg Mookie Jones 1o.5mpg 2010-2011 Scoop Jardine 32.1 mpg Brandon Triche 28.8mpg Dion Waiters 16.2mpg Mookie Jones 8.1mpg 2011-2012 Scoop Jardine 25.2 mpg Dion Waiters 24.1 mpg Brandon Triche 22.5 mpg Michael Carter-Williams 10.3 mpg 2012-2013 Michael Carter-Williams 35.2 mpg Brandon Triche 33.8mpg Trevor Cooney 11.2mpg 2013-2014 Tyler Ennis 35.3mpg Trevor Cooney 32.4mpg Michael Gbinije 14.7mpg

I see a lot of 3 guard teams. You cheat by counting Mookie who played against scrub teams. You want to do MPG, use all games not just the games guys played in.

 

[two3zone]

He did before he hurt his knee. It wasn't much, but the opponent at least had to guard him as he would occasionally score off the pick and roll and he could jump for put-backs. He can't even dunk right now.

Huh? Have you ever seen BMK play? He's never done anything on offense his whole career.

He hasn't been guarded for 4 years. I can honestly say I've never seen him score off the pick and roll and to be honest id be shocked if he scored more than 5 baskets all season that wasn't off an offensive rebound.

He can't dunk now? He missed about 6 dunks in the tournament last season. He's never been able to dunk.

 

[dollarbill44]

Huh? Have you ever seen BMK play? He's never done anything on offense his whole career.

He hasn't been guarded for 4 years. I can honestly say I've never seen him score off the pick and roll and to be honest id be shocked if he scored more than 5 baskets all season that wasn't off an offensive rebound.

He can't dunk now? He missed about 6 dunks in the tournament last season. He's never been able to dunk.

I've watched just about every SU game since the late 70s. If you're being honest about the bold text, then it's obvious who has seen BMK play more, because it has happened. I'm not saying a lot, because I always jumped out of my seat when it happened, but it has happened. Are you seriously saying BMK has never dunked??? Look, he's never been a great offensive player, but he has put up double digits from time to time, so let's not make it sound like he was Billy Celuck out there.

 

[sufandu]

I think you're both right. Trevor is thinking too much and having to work way too hard for his shots. He just needs to freaking shoot the ball and not worry about it. If we can somehow work inside out or get more breakouts, Trevor will get better looks. But, you're right, he's been horribly inconsistent.

Alsacs is right in saying our 4 and 5 have killed us. The 4 since Grant got hurt and the 5 offensively all season (sans one game). RAK missed an easy game winner against BC and has missed these bunnies all year. He's not a consistent scoring threat.

This team will go as far as CJ, Tyler, Trevor and Jerami take us...no more and no less.

I don't think this is mentioned enough. Despite it being one of the best ways to get any shooter open shots, the way we're constructed we won't work inside out. We don't have anyone that plays in the post. I wish it were something CJ had developed, I think it would have given him the opportunity for some easier shots this year, and Grant just doesn't have that as part of his game yet, despite some people comparing him to Warrick.

I think the lack of ability to score in the post has been our biggest hindrance on offense this year.