Contra-Gottlieb Stats

[orange2win]

But 5 Elite 8's in 26 yrs is underperforming IMO given the talent we have had (and yes, seeding...over or under...plays a role there).

44cuse

Not to nit-pick, but I think it is 6 Elite 8's in 29 years. You probably are not including the 1979 team, most people don't. There were only 40 teams in the tournament that year, so with a bye and just one win we got to the Elite 8.

That is where the frustration with SUs performance in the NCAA tournament begins. That was the Louis - Bouis show team, which also included Danny Schayes - the most overlooked of all SU past players (he beats out Anthony, Bing, Coleman, Hart, Douglas for most games played in the NBA). The Louis-Bouis show achieved the highest winning average in SU history of 88.7 ppg. They whopped one opponent 147-92, which I think is an SU record. That Elite 8 appearance finally got JB a little respect in the national press.

The 1979-80 team climbed to #2 in the national rankings - highest to that point for an SU team. In March we were rewarded with the #1 seed in a new 48 team tournament. We got a bye in the 1st round and then beat Nova to get to the S16. In that round we met an unranked Iowa. A bunch of farm boys from the mid-west seeded #5. Right there on the national stage, Iowa blew us away. One of SU's best ever teams, and it could not get past the S16. What a heartbreak.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

That's exactly the point. We have had teams that have underperformed. Vermont...that SU team was probably my least favorite SU team of all time. But should they have beaten? Hell yes.

Sry, I just don't buy that there are people here saying that SU is great tourney team. Our numbers aren't better because we have underperformed. I don't give a stuff about how we compare to other schools. I care about what we do in the tournament. Sure, we won it as a three...but UCONN won it as a three and so did Florida and Arizona won it as a four.

Look, I'm not saying we're awful. I'm the one in this thread that said JB is great and the stats are BS. But this argument that SU is good tourney team is what makes people laugh at SU fans. There is plenty to brag about with this program...the tourney isn't one of them.

44cuse

Well I'm glad to see you've backed off the "We definitely under perform in the tourney and there isn't really any doubt about that" and morphed it into "this argument that SU is good tourney team is what makes people laugh at SU fans"

I got a chuckle out of the "I don't give a stuff how we compare to other schools" and then 2 sentences later compare us to other schools. I do notice the anecdotal Vermont evidence but none of the metrics like PASE (Performance Against Seed Expectations) or SOAR (Seed Overachievement Rate) or the ESPN created measure, which suggest JB is a good tourney coach.

In another post you mentioned your DG approved method of determining under performance based on JBs worst measure, the Elite 8. But I contend that if you took each year where we were in the polls the average would be outside of the top 10. Getting to the sweet 16 and not making it to the Elite 8 seems like it would be the expected spot for SUs weak spot over the years.

You say there is nothing in the tourney to brag about, but what about number of tourney appearances? What about total tourney wins? I think some of these things are being taken for granted under the current level of success we are having.

 

[CorduroyG]

These aren't the stats that make JB great! JB does not need anything more than what he has to be great. That's the whole point. Take it for what it is.

But let's stop with the we are a great tourney team thing. Some of it comes down to really bad luck (AO and Fab).

Syracuse has been to the Elite 8 four times in 24 years. UCONN (Cue Marsh) has been to the Elite 8 nine times during that stretch including 5 times in the last 10 yrs (I think).

Look, I'm not sitting here saying SU is a horrible program. Whether its this thread or the other...I'm saying DG has no idea what he is talking about (and I don't hate DG) but he clearly has an ax to grind with his latest piece.

But 5 Elite 8's in 26 yrs is underperforming IMO given the talent we have had (and yes, seeding...over or under...plays a role there).

44cuse

its not underperforming when you consider our seed. only #1 or #2 seeds are expected to go to the elite 8, how many times have we been a 1 or 2 seed the last 30 years or whatever? having said that, we desperately need a final 4 run

 

[moqui]

Not to nit-pick, but I think it is 6 Elite 8's in 29 years. You probably are not including the 1979 team, most people don't. There were only 40 teams in the tournament that year, so with a bye and just one win we got to the Elite 8.

one bye and one win gets you to the Sweet 16.

the Elite 8 that year were:

East:
St. John's & Penn (Penn defeated SU in the S16)

Mideast:
Michigan State & Notre Dame

Midwest:
Arkansas and Indiana State

West:
UCLA & DePaul

 

[SWC75]

Not to nit-pick, but I think it is 6 Elite 8's in 29 years. You probably are not including the 1979 team, most people don't. There were only 40 teams in the tournament that year, so with a bye and just one win we got to the Elite 8.

That is where the frustration with SUs performance in the NCAA tournament begins. That was the Louis - Bouis show team, which also included Danny Schayes - the most overlooked of all SU past players (he beats out Anthony, Bing, Coleman, Hart, Douglas for most games played in the NBA). The Louis-Bouis show achieved the highest winning average in SU history of 88.7 ppg. They whopped one opponent 147-92, which I think is an SU record. That Elite 8 appearance finally got JB a little respect in the national press.

The 1979-80 team climbed to #2 in the national rankings - highest to that point for an SU team. In March we were rewarded with the #1 seed in a new 48 team tournament. We got a bye in the 1st round and then beat Nova to get to the S16. In that round we met an unranked Iowa. A bunch of farm boys from the mid-west seeded #5. Right there on the national stage, Iowa blew us away. One of SU's best ever teams, and it could not get past the S16. What a heartbreak.

Not to Nit-Pick but we lost in the Sweet 16 in 1979. It was the Louie and Bouie Show, not the Louis-Bouis Show. And Iowa didn't "blow us away". See my new post entitled "The Sweet 16".

 

[moqui]

. In that round we met an unranked Iowa. A bunch of farm boys from the mid-west seeded #5.

that Iowa team was not "a bunch of farm boys." It was coached by Lute Olson who recruited heavily out of the talent rich urban midwest cities, and was led by Chicago point guard Ronnie Lester who was a stud and a half. They fell out of the rankings when he got injured, but he came back strong and led his team to the Final Four.

 

[orange2win]

that Iowa team was not "a bunch of farm boys." It was coached by Lute Olson who recruited heavily out of the talent rich urban midwest cities, and was led by Chicago point guard Ronnie Lester who was a stud and a half. They fell out of the rankings when he got injured, but he came back strong and led his team to the Final Four.

It was terrible loss for a #1 seed. Between mid January and the tournament in March, Iowa was ranked for just one week at #20. True Lester was a future NBA pro, but he only scored 9 points in the game, so his impact was limited. He also had 3 RBs and 7 Asts. They had only one other future NBA pro on that team, a kid called Bob Hansen, a local "farm boy" from Iowa. Hansen was a Fr. and scored just 4 pts. 1 Rb and 3 Asts. They didn't record minutes back then, so I cannot tell how much he played.

I assume you are making the case that Iowa was a decent team. Not that this was was okay loss.

 

[moqui]

It was terrible loss for a #1 seed. Between mid January and the tournament in March, Iowa was ranked for just one week at #20. True Lester was a future NBA pro, but he only scored 9 points in the game, so his impact was limited. He also had 3 RBs and 7 Asts. They had only one other future NBA pro on that team, a kid called Bob Hansen, a local "farm boy" from Iowa. Hansen was a Fr. and scored just 4 pts. 1 Rb and 3 Asts. They didn't record minutes back then, so I cannot tell how much he played.

I assume you are making the case that Iowa was a decent team. Not that this was was okay loss.

I guess I am making the case that you can't make judgements about a team's makeup from reading old box scores. You see "Iowa" and "unranked" and make the assumption of "a bunch of local farm boys." You make them sound like a bunch of plodding, white boy jump shooters.

I was young and just beginning to be a fan that year, but I remember that Iowa team to be fast and athletic. Lester demanded a lot of defensive attention that opened things up for others- that kind of impact on a defense doesn't always show up in the box scores.

 

[MyMeloMyMan]

Gottlieb says his Contra stats were unparalleled. He finished the game in under 14 minutes once, without using up down, up down left right left right select start. #Baller

 

[dasher]

These aren't the stats that make JB great! JB does not need anything more than what he has to be great. That's the whole point. Take it for what it is.

But let's stop with the we are a great tourney team thing. Some of it comes down to really bad luck (AO and Fab).

Syracuse has been to the Elite 8 four times in 24 years. UCONN (Cue Marsh) has been to the Elite 8 nine times during that stretch including 5 times in the last 10 yrs (I think).

Look, I'm not sitting here saying SU is a horrible program. Whether its this thread or the other...I'm saying DG has no idea what he is talking about (and I don't hate DG) but he clearly has an ax to grind with his latest piece.

But 5 Elite 8's in 26 yrs is underperforming IMO given the talent we have had (and yes, seeding...over or under...plays a role there).

44cuse

5 times if you just go to 25 years but I guess that doesn't make the argument.

 

[orange2win]

I
I was young and just beginning to be a fan that year, but I remember that Iowa team to be fast and athletic. Lester demanded a lot of defensive attention that opened things up for others- that kind of impact on a defense doesn't always show up in the box scores.

My recollections are the size and foul imbalence. Size in SU's favor -how could we be losing. Fouls in Iowa's favor - we were getting the shaft. The technical on a fuming JB with with about five minutes to go was devastating.

A terrible loss. All of Syracuse was in mourning. Expections were so high for this team.

Here are the mostly "plodding white guys" who did us in.

 

[44cuse]

Well I'm glad to see you've backed off the "We definitely under perform in the tourney and there isn't really any doubt about that" and morphed it into "this argument that SU is good tourney team is what makes people laugh at SU fans"

I got a chuckle out of the "I don't give a stuff how we compare to other schools" and then 2 sentences later compare us to other schools. I do notice the anecdotal Vermont evidence but none of the metrics like PASE (Performance Against Seed Expectations) or SOAR (Seed Overachievement Rate) or the ESPN created measure, which suggest JB is a good tourney coach.

In another post you mentioned your DG approved method of determining under performance based on JBs worst measure, the Elite 8. But I contend that if you took each year where we were in the polls the average would be outside of the top 10. Getting to the sweet 16 and not making it to the Elite 8 seems like it would be the expected spot for SUs weak spot over the years.

You say there is nothing in the tourney to brag about, but what about number of tourney appearances? What about total tourney wins? I think some of these things are being taken for granted under the current level of success we are having.

I'm not backing down from anything. I believe we underperform in the tournament.

And, I didn't say JB was a bad tournament coach. So you can avoid putting words in my mouth. This whole thread is about JB being a GREAT coach and the tourney not needing to be a part of that measure. You high jacked it and took it in another direction.

Have we been good n the tournament? Sure. Have we been great? Nope.

Total tourney wins is a function of time, not a function of how deep you go. If number of tourney of appearances is what you want to hang your hat on...be my guest.

I can guarantee you I can find a thread right now where someone says the SU really needs a deep tourney run. If that perception wasn't out there, people wouldn't say it. What is a "DG approved method?" I assume you are talking about Gottlieb but I picked the Elite 8 because I think we should have made more a Elite 8's. I don't even know what you are talking about with Gottlieb.

The only I think we agree on is that a lot has been taken for granted around here our recent success. But none of that has anything to do with tournament. We lost our two big men...and we underperformed in those years. Is it what it is.

But to take this back to pre high jacked point: JB is a great coach and the tournament doesn't matter either way in that evaluation. You win. We're a great tourney team.

44cuse

 

[44cuse]

5 times if you just go to 25 years but I guess that doesn't make the argument.

Nope. I was just doing it in my head and forgot about '89.

Edit: And had the math wrong. 5 in 25 is the correct math.

44cuse

 

[44cuse]

having said that, we desperately need a final 4 run

I'm not saying I disagree with you...just curious why you think this?

44cuse

 

[CorduroyG]

I'm not saying I disagree with you...just curious why you think this?

44cuse

Cuz our recruiting and regular season success has been off the charts the last 4-5 years, but no final 4s during that stretch is the elephant in the room. If we wanna be talked about on the same level as duke or kansas or carolina or kentucky, or if we wanna be considered truly an "elite" program, we need a couple final 4 runs or another title asap.

Sent from my SCH-R720 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Sgt Cuse]

I'm not backing down from anything. I believe we underperform in the tournament.

And, I didn't say JB was a bad tournament coach. So you can avoid putting words in my mouth. This whole thread is about JB being a GREAT coach and the tourney not needing to be a part of that measure. You high jacked it and took it in another direction.

Have we been good n the tournament? Sure. Have we been great? Nope.

Total tourney wins is a function of time, not a function of how deep you go. If number of tourney of appearances is what you want to hang your hat on...be my guest.

I can guarantee you I can find a thread right now where someone says the SU really needs a deep tourney run. If that perception wasn't out there, people wouldn't say it. What is a "DG approved method?" I assume you are talking about Gottlieb but I picked the Elite 8 because I think we should have made more a Elite 8's. I don't even know what you are talking about with Gottlieb.

The only I think we agree on is that a lot has been taken for granted around here our recent success. But none of that has anything to do with tournament. We lost our two big men...and we underperformed in those years. Is it what it is.

But to take this back to pre high jacked point: JB is a great coach and the tournament doesn't matter either way in that evaluation. You win. We're a great tourney team.

44cuse

You wrote "We definitely under perform in the tourney and there really is no doubt about that". I strongly disagree with that statement. I believe that the metrics of SOAR and PASE and the one ESPN created cast doubt on that claim.

I certainly believe you can find a thread about someone saying we need a deep run. And yes, I agree that perception is out there (or at least around here). But that does not make it true. It is because this claim is being bandied about so loosely as fact is what prompted me to challenge your statement. And your response of Vermont and not enough elite 8 appearances made me realize you have no factual basis for your opinion.

I don't know how you reconcile saying "we under perform in the tourney" and "I didn't say JB was a bad tournament coach". Because to me, you are saying exactly that.

 

[44cuse]

I don't know how you reconcile saying "we under perform in the tourney" and "I didn't say JB was a bad tournament coach". Because to me, you are saying exactly that.

Perception is reality. You and I can agree to disagree on the facts all day long (which, I actually agree with you more than you think...statistically.). You haven't been around long enough to see the number of times I have made the stats side of this argument.

But to your statement above, here is your answer:

JB isn't responsible for AO getting. Unless you wanted them to sit him in the BET and play for the NCAA's. I don't get the sense you are that guy.

JB isn't responsible for Fab being out last year.

So back to the point: JB is a great coach and the tourney performance makes absolutely no difference.

44cuse

 

[44cuse]

Cuz our recruiting and regular season success has been off the charts the last 4-5 years, but no final 4s during that stretch is the elephant in the room. If we wanna be talked about on the same level as duke or kansas or carolina or kentucky, or if we wanna be considered truly an "elite" program, we need a couple final 4 runs or another title asap.

Sent from my SCH-R720 using Tapatalk 2

Sorry, I have been convinced otherwise of that in this thread. We don't need to do any more in the tournament than we have. We're fine...actually better than fine I guess.

44cuse