Dave Bing: Today was a 'very, very difficult day' | Page 4 | Syracusefan.com

Dave Bing: Today was a 'very, very difficult day'

The only way an economy can expand is through investment. Consumption makes investment profitable. Both are integral. Lets shift the discussion a bit to note that the difference between economic performance of different economies is a matter of allocation of capital. Government lacks a feedback mechanism and as a result it is an inefficient allocator of capital. Free markets provide the crucial feedback loop so long as businesses are allowed to make a profit or go broke. If the gvt throws money at Solyndra there is no consequence. When gvt transfers money from people that use capital efficiently to others it is acting in the name of humanity. However, it is also creating an inefficient allocation of capital. I assume that you, SWC, agree with me that the correct balance is a matter of judgment. In my judgment, gvt has gone too far and is confiscating too much. Growth is being stifled. Gvt is involved in too many activities. Better to attempt less and do better with a smaller agenda. I would eliminate half the federal gvt: Dept of Education, Commerce etc are unnecessary or duplicative of State activities. Even the EPA is duplicative of torts and the judicial system. One of the most deleterious effects of malignant gvt growth is the making of law by bureaucrats thus giving the public no recourse.

Furthermore, I assume that you also agree with me regarding the crucial role of new investment.


This assumes that businessmen are "efficient" in the allocation of capital. What does "efficient" mean anyway? Efficient in producing profits for them? Or efficient in terms to sending it where society needs it? Are these investors going to invest in Detroit? Are they even going to invest in this country? Will their money be spent here so it can filter through our economy? Will they invest in a way to help people who lost their jobs or pensions?
 
Are you disagreeing that Alaska receives more federal money than it sends back in taxes? And it's more than just military spending -- no state received more per capita from the stimulus bill. And, yes, a small state can rake it in when one of its senators is one of Congress's lead appropriators (see Stevens, Ted).

From a 2010 NYT blog entry:

“We’ve got this schizophrenic thing where we now claim to hate pork but love what’s coming to us,” says Anne Kilkenny, a resident of Wasilla, a suburb of Anchorage and the home of Sarah Palin. “We are by any definition a net beneficiary of the federal government.”

Technically true, but misleading. The money is for military expenditures!!! Not a difficult concept. The federal gvt does not pour money into Alaska except to sustain our national defense. Its not like we have a massive highway system or other infrastructure. This is tiresome.
 
You can employ more people if you pay everyone less -- absolutely -- that has nothing to do with the argument that unions built the middle class. You can't get there at $10.00/hour.

One could argue that unions shrunk the middle class by denying people access into the economy.
 
This assumes that businessmen are "efficient" in the allocation of capital. What does "efficient" mean anyway? Efficient in producing profits for them? Or efficient in terms to sending it where society needs it? Are these investors going to invest in Detroit? Are they even going to invest in this country? Will their money be spent here so it can filter through our economy? Will they invest in a way to help people who lost their jobs or pensions?

Efficiency means obtaining the highest rate of return, maximizing profit.
"Expending it where society needs it", is a statement in support of a command economy. Command economies are destined for insolvency, and Balkanization, even destruction of the human spirit and community.
Profits create savings, and savings is identical to investment. S equals I by definition. (That portion of wealth that is saved money is either invested or stuffed under a mattress. Everything else is consumption. Even if you just put your savings in a bank, the bank is investing your money.)
Profits are the source of savings which is investment and without investment there can be no economic growth. Workers benefit by the jobs created by new investment. Assuming operation at close to capacity, consumption cannot increase without new capacity, ie investment.
Gvt confiscation and reallocation, although well meaning, is economic poison. If you confiscate my profits I will stop investing. Command economies create stagnant economies. In a stagnant economy it will not be long before gvt runs out of other people's money. It then becomes insolvent either through stagnation or hyperinflation as it runs the printing presses.
Well meaning libs fail to recognize the evil of socialism/progressism/command economics or whatever the latest terms for those that do not support free markets and capitalism.

The best thing you can do for workers is give them a job. This requires efficient allocation of capital. Capital flows anyplace in the world where it can produce the highest returns. Gvt has no ability to allocate capital efficiently. Efficiency requires the feedback provided by both profits and bankruptcy. Gvts that think they can ignore efficiency will end up like Detroit, a place that used to make cars.

If you think that some enlightened gvt can determine the most humanitarian distribution of earnings, may I suggest, The Search for Cosmic Justice by Sowell?
 
Technically true, but misleading. The money is for military expenditures!!! Not a difficult concept. The federal gvt does not pour money into Alaska except to sustain our national defense. Its not like we have a massive highway system or other infrastructure. This is tiresome.
You're right that this is tiresome -- this will be my last post -- but you're not right that military expenditures alone explain the largesse. In 2010, federal spending per Alaskan minus taxes received was $15,197 -- defense spending accounted for only $7,337.59 of that amount.

And from a 2010 NYT article:

"Alaska’s appetite for federal dollars has always been voracious and is not confined to the stimulus. A study by Prof. Scott Goldsmith of the University of Alaska, Anchorage, noted that an 'extraordinary increase' in federal spending drove the state’s pile-driver growth of the last 15 years.

"In 1996, federal spending in Alaska was 38 percent above the national average. Thanks to the late Republican Senator Ted Stevens, who was Senate appropriations chief for several years, and to the military, which keeps expanding its bases here, Alaska’s share now is 71 percent higher than the national average.

"Some of this owes to the expense of serving Alaska’s rural reaches. But much is bred in the bone. The federal government carved this young state out of the northern wilderness, and officials here learn to manipulate federal budget levers at a tender age."

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/19/business/19stimulus.html?pagewanted=all
 
Always appreciate your posts.(meant for SWC... been posting on the phone and often leave out pertinent info).
 
Efficiency means obtaining the highest rate of return, maximizing profit.
"Expending it where society needs it", is a statement in support of a command economy. Command economies are destined for insolvency, and Balkanization, even destruction of the human spirit and community.
Profits create savings, and savings is identical to investment. S equals I by definition. (That portion of wealth that is saved money is either invested or stuffed under a mattress. Everything else is consumption. Even if you just put your savings in a bank, the bank is investing your money.)
Profits are the source of savings which is investment and without investment there can be no economic growth. Workers benefit by the jobs created by new investment. Assuming operation at close to capacity, consumption cannot increase without new capacity, ie investment.
Gvt confiscation and reallocation, although well meaning, is economic poison. If you confiscate my profits I will stop investing. Command economies create stagnant economies. In a stagnant economy it will not be long before gvt runs out of other people's money. It then becomes insolvent either through stagnation or hyperinflation as it runs the printing presses.
Well meaning libs fail to recognize the evil of socialism/progressism/command economics or whatever the latest terms for those that do not support free markets and capitalism.

The best thing you can do for workers is give them a job. This requires efficient allocation of capital. Capital flows anyplace in the world where it can produce the highest returns. Gvt has no ability to allocate capital efficiently. Efficiency requires the feedback provided by both profits and bankruptcy. Gvts that think they can ignore efficiency will end up like Detroit, a place that used to make cars.

If you think that some enlightened gvt can determine the most humanitarian distribution of earnings, may I suggest, The Search for Cosmic Justice by Sowell?


"The best thing you can do for workers is give them a job." With a pension.
 
"The best thing you can do for workers is give them a job." With a pension.
how is that pension thing working out for Detroit, and BTW - Illinois, New Jersey, Connecticut, etc..

SWC - I'm assuming you are a retired federal employee - and I'm assuming under the old plan (CSRS) - if so good for you - but there is a reason why the feds got out of the pension business - entirely unsustainable
 
You're right that this is tiresome -- this will be my last post -- but you're not right that military expenditures alone explain the largesse. In 2010, federal spending per Alaskan minus taxes received was $15,197 -- defense spending accounted for only $7,337.59 of that amount.

And from a 2010 NYT article:

"Alaska’s appetite for federal dollars has always been voracious and is not confined to the stimulus. A study by Prof. Scott Goldsmith of the University of Alaska, Anchorage, noted that an 'extraordinary increase' in federal spending drove the state’s pile-driver growth of the last 15 years.

"In 1996, federal spending in Alaska was 38 percent above the national average. Thanks to the late Republican Senator Ted Stevens, who was Senate appropriations chief for several years, and to the military, which keeps expanding its bases here, Alaska’s share now is 71 percent higher than the national average.

"Some of this owes to the expense of serving Alaska’s rural reaches. But much is bred in the bone. The federal government carved this young state out of the northern wilderness, and officials here learn to manipulate federal budget levers at a tender age."

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/19/business/19stimulus.html?pagewanted=all

Do not use the word 'only' when, by your own figures show that 50% of Fed expenditures in AK are for military. That hardly qualifies as only. It is determinant. End of your argument.
 
"The best thing you can do for workers is give them a job." With a pension.

To close the circle; financing a job with a pension requires a profit making business.
If labor is paid more than its MRP, business profit will be compromised.

The roile of our gvt is secure individual freedom. The opposite of that is acpommand economy that provides guaranteed outcomes to enhance social justice. However, Gvt guaranteed outcomes amounts to serfdom/tyranny/fascism. Why are libs so attracted to this perverse definition of freedom, gvt guarantees, what they call freedom from or positive freedom? If you put the Nazi / Russian and Roosevelt's proposed new, constitutions side by side you would find no substantial difference between the 3: guaranteed housing, guaranteed living wage, guaranteed employment, guaranteed health care, etc. The German constitution even promised finding a cure for cancer.

The best explanation I can think of for liberalism is hubris, the assumption that technocrats can make better decisions than individuals can make with their own money, ie. that gvt should be responsible for economic planning and redistribution in the name of social justice, even if gvt economic control guarantees economic stagnation and insolvency.
 
To close the circle; financing a job with a pension requires a profit making business.
If labor is paid more than its MRP, business profit will be compromised.

The roile of our gvt is secure individual freedom. The opposite of that is acpommand economy that provides guaranteed outcomes to enhance social justice. However, Gvt guaranteed outcomes amounts to serfdom/tyranny/fascism. Why are libs so attracted to this perverse definition of freedom, gvt guarantees, what they call freedom from or positive freedom? If you put the Nazi / Russian and Roosevelt's proposed new, constitutions side by side you would find no substantial difference between the 3: guaranteed housing, guaranteed living wage, guaranteed employment, guaranteed health care, etc. The German constitution even promised finding a cure for cancer.

The best explanation I can think of for liberalism is hubris, the assumption that technocrats can make better decisions than individuals can make with their own money, ie. that gvt should be responsible for economic planning and redistribution in the name of social justice, even if gvt economic control guarantees economic stagnation and insolvency.

You compare modern American liberalism to some melding of Nazis and Russians (do mean Soviet or modern Russia?) and expect anyone to take you seriously? I know cons like you love to use "socialism," "communism" and "fascism" interchangeably, but despite what the cons' mind tells him, these terms actually have different meanings.

And how much oil money did you receive from Alaska last year? Seems kind of a commie thing for a state to pay its citizens for its collective ownership of natural resources. I imagine a good capitalist like you sent that money right back to the government.

Sent from my HTC6435LVW using Tapatalk 2
 
PBGC - Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation

I do not believe this Federal agency covers public employee pension plans, it is funded by a tax on private corporations, and covers private pensions. Public employers are not part of the system to my knowledge.
 
I do not believe this Federal agency covers public employee pension plans, it is funded by a tax on private corporations, and covers private pensions. Public employers are not part of the system to my knowledge.

You are absolutely correct and I am embarrassed that I posted what I did. I've worked with employer pensions and the PBGC and just didn't think about it thoroughly when I gave my answer.
 
You are absolutely correct and I am embarrassed that I posted what I did. I've worked with employer pensions and the PBGC and just didn't think about it thoroughly when I gave my answer.

No need to be embarrassed, a minor lapse. I am always happy when I have something I can be absolutely correct about though so thank you.
 
Socialism, Communism, fascism are all command economies. No significant difference between them. Conservatives favor free markets, which are the complete opposite of command economies. Only true believers fret over perceived differences between various command economies.

Alaska is a low tax state. Low taxes are not characteristic of a commie state. A liberal state would have simply taxed and spent the oil revenue money. A conservative state does not keep the revenue and spend it on crazy gvt programs. It simply returns it. Anyone is welcome to move here. What is your point? Furthermore, Alaska just cut oil taxes to the bone, even though the oil is on State owned land.
 
Socialism, Communism, fascism are all command economies. No significant difference between them. Conservatives favor free markets, which are the complete opposite of command economies. Only true believers fret over perceived differences between various command economies.

Alaska is a low tax state. Low taxes are not characteristic of a commie state. A liberal state would have simply taxed and spent the oil revenue money. A conservative state does not keep the revenue and spend it on crazy gvt programs. It simply returns it. Anyone is welcome to move here. What is your point? Furthermore, Alaska just cut oil taxes to the bone, even though the oil is on State owned land.

Its easy to be a low tax state when the rest of the country subsidizes your low tax rates. And collective ownership of resources is one of the main features of communism.

Also, if you don't see the difference between Sweden and the soviet union...well, I wouldn't be surprised if you don't see a difference between the two.

Sent from my HTC6435LVW using Tapatalk 2
 
how is that pension thing working out for Detroit, and BTW - Illinois, New Jersey, Connecticut, etc..

SWC - I'm assuming you are a retired federal employee - and I'm assuming under the old plan (CSRS) - if so good for you - but there is a reason why the feds got out of the pension business - entirely unsustainable



Hopefully, you will never need one.

The government has a commission relating federal employee pay to similar jobs in private industry and we started out behind and got further and further behind my whole career. I think it was about 30% when I retired. So in my 33 years battling both the public and the bureaucracy, I earned my pension. CSRS was replaced by FERS, a combination pension and investment plan. The joke was: If you can't afford furs, you can't afford FERS.
 
To close the circle; financing a job with a pension requires a profit making business.
If labor is paid more than its MRP, business profit will be compromised.

The roile of our gvt is secure individual freedom. The opposite of that is acpommand economy that provides guaranteed outcomes to enhance social justice. However, Gvt guaranteed outcomes amounts to serfdom/tyranny/fascism. Why are libs so attracted to this perverse definition of freedom, gvt guarantees, what they call freedom from or positive freedom? If you put the Nazi / Russian and Roosevelt's proposed new, constitutions side by side you would find no substantial difference between the 3: guaranteed housing, guaranteed living wage, guaranteed employment, guaranteed health care, etc. The German constitution even promised finding a cure for cancer.

The best explanation I can think of for liberalism is hubris, the assumption that technocrats can make better decisions than individuals can make with their own money, ie. that gvt should be responsible for economic planning and redistribution in the name of social justice, even if gvt economic control guarantees economic stagnation and insolvency.


Yeah, and businessmen are totally devoted to individual freedom, just like they are totally devoted to the public good. And the economy just hums along steadily when there is no government regulation.
 
Conservatives favor free markets, which are the complete opposite of command economies.

Conservatives favor free markets up until the point where they gain an advantage, at which point they then exercise their advantage to maintain their advantage. An actual global free market would decimate the United States.
 
Yeah, and businessmen are totally devoted to individual freedom, just like they are totally devoted to the public good. And the economy just hums along steadily when there is no government regulation.

A businessman is devoted to making a profit. Profit allows for investment and employment. It grows the economy. It provides jobs. It is in the public good. A progressive may think he is for the public good, but to the degree that he stifles economic activity he is actually harming the public good. It is irrelevant whether or not the businessman sees himself as a humanitarian.

Capital is always in short supply. A competitive economy has to use it efficiently. This requires a feedback mechanism.
gvt expenditures, allocations, are devoid of any feedback. Markets provide feedback. Every small business knows what it net is. Every corporation gets the additional feedback from capital markets. If it misses expected earnings by a penny it can loose millions of dollars off its stock price in minutes. That is why capitalism works and command economies cannot work.
 

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