Did Bernie Actually Do It?

[javadoc]

Curious how this board views it now.

 

[cliftonparksufan]

Curious how this board views it now.

I still think there may be a small chance that he had homosexual relationships with males, but that they were 18 or older. Maybe that is just wishful thinking, but you never know.

 

[jekelish]

I think he did.

 

[grepal]

One of the things I learned from talking to my wife who graduated from SU's School of Human Development is that homosexuals are very rarely child molesters, she tells me that molesters usually turn out to be otherwise straight men. Not that this matters one iota, but I would have thought the opposite to be true.

 

[AZOrange]

Curious how this board views it now.

I have no idea how you can be anything but uncertain on this...

 

[bevosu]

I have no idea how you can be anything but uncertain on this...

At this point...I totally agree.

 

[billsin01]

I voted uncertain for the simple fact that there are soooo many open ends and, based on what we have actually heard and seen, there are plenty of holes for a defense team to pick at and potentially get BF off (no pun intended). My own personal opinion is that he probably did do it. So I guess I needed an all of the above option.

 

[javadoc]

I have no idea how you can be anything but uncertain on this...

Yet there was apparently enough to fire him. Now imagine if he had been a unionized teacher.

 

[TinyManInside]

IMO, all of the 'evidence' that has been presented thus far is circumstantial.

The tape, while certainly painting an ugly picture, does not directly reveal Laurie Fine as a witness, and there is also ambiguity in terms of the age of the implied relationships. One could easily interprete the tape as describing a consensual homosexual relationship between adults that went bad. The 'gay boys' and 'you were a kid then, you're a man now' comments are both open-ended. Lots of people use the word 'kid' to describe college age students, and 'gay boy' is often used as generic slang for homosexual adult males.

Now of course, one could easily interprete it literally, which is very damning, but ultimately she doesn't say that she directly witnessed Bernie molesting 12 year olds...

Now, my guess is that the tape raised enough questions, along with the 3rd accuser, to get the warrant to search Bernie's house. If we ever get concrete answers, this is likely to be the place where they are found.

I guess what I'm saying is that I'm rather firmly in the 'uncertain' camp, although I wouldn't be at all surprised if he did do these things.

Mason

 

[Ghost]

One of the things I learned from talking to my wife who graduated from SU's School of Human Development is that homosexuals are very rarely child molesters, she tells me that molesters usually turn out to be otherwise straight men. Not that this matters one iota, but I would have thought the opposite to be true.

Maybe he's like one of the many female teachers that are pretty much normal (maybe) until they fall in love with their student. Isn't that Mary Kay Laterneau woman married to the 12 year old she molested? Perhaps he was just a married gay guy that molested one kid. Or; if the other allegations prove to be true, he could just be the exception to the rule.

 

[javadoc]

IMO, all of the 'evidence' that has been presented thus far is circumstantial.
...
I guess what I'm saying is that I'm rather firmly in the 'uncertain' camp, although I wouldn't be at all surprised if he did do these things.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[Jeepers]

One thing I found interesting that hasn't been discussed...

Was when Davis said he was surprised that BF wasn't angry when he slept with LF (I'm still trying to find where "she has admitted to sleeping with Davis"). That sounds like the jilted lover theory--like a revenge **k. Though the tape has made that theory very questionable.

 

[newmexicuse]

Wow, does this forum have its head in the sand !!

Yes, many things are uncertain, but the basic issue of whether Bernie molested children is as close to being certain as anything can be at this stage of the situation. The only way Bernie could be innocent is if there is a very sophisticated conspiracy going on.

I just can't believe the disconnect to reality that the survey is showing.

 

[orangefan13]

Maybe closet gays end up molesting in some cases.

 

[CuseManiac]

I'm uncertain but I am leaning towards thinking he did it

 

[rrlbees]

yes

 

[Boozercrook]

Yes, and the most recent statement from Fine's lawyers does not even sound like a denial to me.

 

[TinyManInside]

I'd like to clarify my post from above. My analysis was based on what I would decide in a court of law if presented with everything that we know for certain thus far... I wouldn't be able to convict based on that. However, if you're asking me about my gut feel, I'd say that I'm definitely leaning towards yes. I suspect we're going to get more info over the next couple weeks (maybe months?) that digs a deeper and deeper hole for Bernie.

 

[orangenirvana]

One of the things I learned from talking to my wife who graduated from SU's School of Human Development is that homosexuals are very rarely child molesters, she tells me that molesters usually turn out to be otherwise straight men. Not that this matters one iota, but I would have thought the opposite to be true.

That's interesting, I would have guessed that molesters usually turn out to be pedophiles.

 

[Oakland]

Wow, does this forum have its head in the sand !!

Yes, many things are uncertain, but the basic issue of whether Bernie molested children is as close to being certain as anything can be at this stage of the situation. The only way Bernie could be innocent is if there is a very sophisticated conspiracy going on.

I just can't believe the disconnect to reality that the survey is showing.

Please present the evident that BF is ...

 

[RF2044]

Wow, does this forum have its head in the sand !!

Yes, many things are uncertain, but the basic issue of whether Bernie molested children is as close to being certain as anything can be at this stage of the situation. The only way Bernie could be innocent is if there is a very sophisticated conspiracy going on.

I just can't believe the disconnect to reality that the survey is showing.

Jumping to conclusions based upon partial, circumstantial information doesn't make you enlightened--it makes you overreactionary.

Mason's post above is a phenomenal breakdown--a very objective look at how much of the evidence that's been brought forth is circumstantial, and how there has been contradictory evidence offsetting some of the claims.

That doesn't mean that Bernie isn't guilty. It doesn't mean that more information won't come out that paints things in a different light one way or the other that isn't publicly known now. And it doesn't mean that the tape that was released yesterday wasn't sensationalist / salacious, especially how it was presented in segments [versus in it's contextual entirety; if anyone hasn't listened yet, I suggest you give the Mike Waters / Francesa interview a listen to hear about how how many things presented in the tape sound awful but might not be as damaging as they first appear, given how vague they are].

It also doesn't mean that the sum collective of all of the above doesn't paint Bernie in a terrible light. Like many here, my gut tells me that Bernie is probably guilty. I just find it odd that there haven't been more victims coming forward. There's no doubt whatsoever in my mind that Bernie is a gay man who's led a double life. But if he's also a pedophile, then I'd expect a long list of victims to emerge, spanning the many years he's been a coach and had the opportunity to prey upon them. Please note that this may still prove to be true. I'm just surprised that the only three that have turned up are Davis, Lang [whose credibility seems doubtful], and Tomaselli [who's credibility is even more questionable].

 

[RF2044]

IMO, all of the 'evidence' that has been presented thus far is circumstantial.

The tape, while certainly painting an ugly picture, does not directly reveal Laurie Fine as a witness, and there is also ambiguity in terms of the age of the implied relationships. One could easily interprete the tape as describing a consensual homosexual relationship between adults that went bad. The 'gay boys' and 'you were a kid then, you're a man now' comments are both open-ended. Lots of people use the word 'kid' to describe college age students, and 'gay boy' is often used as generic slang for homosexual adult males.

Now of course, one could easily interprete it literally, which is very damning, but ultimately she doesn't say that she directly witnessed Bernie molesting 12 year olds...

Now, my guess is that the tape raised enough questions, along with the 3rd accuser, to get the warrant to search Bernie's house. If we ever get concrete answers, this is likely to be the place where they are found.

I guess what I'm saying is that I'm rather firmly in the 'uncertain' camp, although I wouldn't be at all surprised if he did do these things.

Mason

Great post, Mason.

 

[grepal]

I am in the camp of praying it is not true while believing that it is most likely true. I am saddened by this on many levels.

 

[DeGrozz]

Curious how this board views it now.

I believe he 'did it' but I also believe that the victims haven't been completely honest either, which will also come out, if I'm right (but I'm known to be wrong!).

- I think Davis was molested as a youth and the emotional distress/confusion lead him to be used by the Fines through early adulthood.

- I am on the fence with Lang. I just don't see how Fine, who seemingly has fewer victims than most abusers, molests someone when they are 12 or 13 and then is around them for years after, but suddenly stops his attacks. (Lang said he was abused in middle school but was a ball boy through early high school) If Schwartz' description of his discussion with Lang in 2002 is accurate though, I feel like he probably was ashamed during his initial interviews and denied the attacks. I think as a normal citizen, I (and most posters) don't really understand how molestation affects the psyche. It takes years of studies not just reading a few articles to grasp what mentally happens to a person in these situations, so I am not dismissing Lang.

- I am having a hard time believing Tomaselli. He doesn't fit the profile of the other two victims, who have more believable stories. Lang and Davis were around Fine a lot. Fine gained their trust. Then Fine seemingly abused that trust. With Tomaselli, if I am understanding the story correctly, Fine met Tomaselli and almost immediately started abusing him, and then ended it quickly. That just doesn't fit with everything else that has been reported about this case.

There is still a lot to come out though. The PSU investigation already had a grand jury report following a three year investigation before it hit the MSM. The Cuse case is still young and there is still much more to come.

Unfortunately though (more unfortunate for the victims, obviously), Fine appears guilty -- to me at lease.

 

[orangecuse]

I believe he 'did it' but I also believe that the victims haven't been completely honest either, which will also come out, if I'm right (but I'm known to be wrong!).

- I think Davis was molested as a youth and the emotional distress/confusion lead him to be used by the Fines through early adulthood.

- I am on the fence with Lang. I just don't see how Fine, who seemingly has fewer victims than most abusers, molests someone when they are 12 or 13 and then is around them for years after, but suddenly stops his attacks. (Lang said he was abused in middle school but was a ball boy through early high school) If Schwartz' description of his discussion with Lang in 2002 is accurate though, I feel like he probably was ashamed during his initial interviews and denied the attacks. I think as a normal citizen, I (and most posters) don't really understand how molestation affects the psyche. It takes years of studies not just reading a few articles to grasp what mentally happens to a person in these situations, so I am not dismissing Lang.

- I am having a hard time believing Tomaselli. He doesn't fit the profile of the other two victims, who have more believable stories. Lang and Davis were around Fine a lot. Fine gained their trust. Then Fine seemingly abused that trust. With Tomaselli, if I am understanding the story correctly, Fine met Tomaselli and almost immediately started abusing him, and then ended it quickly. That just doesn't fit with everything else that has been reported about this case.

There is still a lot to come out though. The PSU investigation already had a grand jury report following a three year investigation before it hit the MSM. The Cuse case is still young and there is still much more to come.

Unfortunately though (more unfortunate for the victims, obviously), Fine appears guilty -- to me at lease.

I'm on the fence for many of the same reasons mentioned in this thread...though if I had only a yea or nea choice, I would say yea. Your point about how Fine gained Davis' & Lang's trust and then ultimately abusing it is typical of these type of offenders. The article that Donnie Mac wrote for CNN regarding the Sandusky debacle really emphasized this point too...