Do ya think Silent G

[RF2044]

I think the disconnect is you are talking solely about jr to sr jump. Everyone else is talking about improvement over the career.

Silent G was excellent at the end of last year too

But in your case - rak and z were avg at best players for 3 years and very valuable as seniors. But i don't think that is the discussion here.

I don't think there's a disconnect at all. Lots of players don't play as frosh. Kris Joseph, for example, who then went on to have a fine career, Rick Jackson ditto, amongst many others. Andy didn't play as a frosh, but was a significant contributor his next two years. He didn't come out of nowhere as a senior, when he was awesome and a key cog on a great team. Although I readily grant that he was terrific his senior year, and a much more valuable contributor than before.

Now, relative to recruiting rankings--a guy like Rautins [zero stars or whatever he was] went on to be a major contributor. A guy like Damon Brown [who I probably should have listed above] was a two year starter, but then had a great senior year. You could also throw a Conrad McRae in this discussion, even though he had a reasonably solid junior year.

I guess it is more about how you interpret the question. I was thinking of it more as guys who had big senior years without much before that to indicate that they would.

 

[CusefanATL]

I don't think there's a disconnect at all. Lots of players don't play as frosh. Kris Joseph, for example, who then went on to have a fine career, amongst many others. Andy didn't play as a frosh, but was a significant contributor his next two years. He didn't come out of nowhere as a senior, when he was awesome and a key cog on a great team. Although I readily grant that he was terrific his senior year, and a much more valuable contributor than before.

Now, relative to recruiting rankings--a guy like Rautins [zero stars or whatever he was] went on to be a major contributor. A guy like Damon Brown [who I probably should have listed above] was a two year starter, but then had a great senior year. I guess it is more about how you interpret the question. I was thinking of it more as guys who had big senior years without much before that to indicate that they would.

I think of it as improvement from stepping onto campus and leaving campus.

And as a freshman, Rautins showed nothing in any game he played. He was 25lbs lighter than he needed to be and looked like a baby. He got injured and worked his a$$ off and sprung a very nice career at Cuse.

His improvement from the day he got on campus to the day he got off is hard to beat.

Hakim Warrick is easily on that list as well.

 

[CusefanATL]

I don't think there's a disconnect at all. Lots of players don't play as frosh. Kris Joseph, for example, who then went on to have a fine career, Rick Jackson ditto, amongst many others. Andy didn't play as a frosh, but was a significant contributor his next two years. He didn't come out of nowhere as a senior, when he was awesome and a key cog on a great team. Although I readily grant that he was terrific his senior year, and a much more valuable contributor than before.

Now, relative to recruiting rankings--a guy like Rautins [zero stars or whatever he was] went on to be a major contributor. A guy like Damon Brown [who I probably should have listed above] was a two year starter, but then had a great senior year. You could also throw a Conrad McRae in this discussion, even though he had a reasonably solid junior year.

I guess it is more about how you interpret the question. I was thinking of it more as guys who had big senior years without much before that to indicate that they would.

And I think there is a disconnect because you kind of dismissed Rautins and Rick Jackson in this argument because you seem to be the only 1 that is changing the rules of the argument - and in your rules - you are right, rautins and jackson don't really apply. But I don't think anyone else is using those rules.

 

[RF2044]

In that case, I don't think you need to look further than Etan or Seikaly. Neither of them had a clue how to play, both of whom turned into terrific college players who were high draft picks and had lengthy NBA careers.

Rautins was better than much of our fanbase gave him credit for. He was physically underdeveloped--no argument there--but he had game. Warrick was a lower rated recruit than Hodge, but had a ton of physical potential. No argument about him maxing it out. His physical improvement by senior year was pretty remarkable for a kid with his scrawny frame. But again, three year starter, double figure scorer and major league player all three of those years. Was it improvement as much as just the opportunity to start and play tons of minutes? :noidea:

 

[RF2044]

And I think there is a disconnect because you kind of dismissed Rautins and Rick Jackson in this argument because you seem to be the only 1 that is changing the rules of the argument - and in your rules - you are right, rautins and jackson don't really apply. But I don't think anyone else is using those rules.

Okay, you are taking this WAY too literally. I posted something about players who improved the most by senior year, following up on a post chip made above that spurred that thought for me. That's what I chose to focus on. Others can look at it different ways. I don't "dismiss" either of those players. But they were three year contributors who played a ton and had plenty of contributions prior to senior year. A guy like Rick was a double figure scorer prior to the end of his career. He got into incredible shape senior year and had a fine season, but it wasn't as dramatic a transformation as someone like Rak. I don't "dismiss" Rick's improvement, I just don't think it was as big of a jump as Rak's was.

The disconnect is in your mind--not saying that to be rude.

 

[CusefanATL]

In that case, I don't think you need to look further than Etan or Seikaly. Neither of them had a clue how to play, both of whom turned into terrific college players who were high draft picks and had lengthy NBA careers.

Rautins was better than much of our fanbase gave him credit for. He was physically underdeveloped--no argument there--but he had game. Warrick was a lower rated recruit than Hodge, but had a ton of physical potential. No argument about him maxing it out. His physical improvement by senior year was pretty remarkable for a kid with his scrawny frame. But again, three year starter, double figure scorer and major league player all three of those years. Was it improvement as much as just the opportunity to start and play tons of minutes? :noidea:

there you go. very fair points.

Etan and Rony are def on that list as well. I'll never forget Etan fouling out in 6 minutes vs Gtown his frosh year. I was 11 at the time but thought dedrick was going to be a bust.

 

[CusefanATL]

Okay, you are taking this WAY too literally. I posted something about players who improved the most by senior year, following up on a post chip made above. That's what I chose to focus on. Others can look at it different ways. I don't "dismiss" either of those players. But they were three year contributors who played a ton and had plenty of contributions prior to senior year. A guy like Rick was a double figure scorer prior to the end of his career. He got into incredible shape senior year and had a fine season, but it wasn't as dramatic a transformation as someone like Rak. I don't "dismiss" Rick's improvement, I just don't think it was as big of a jump as Rak's was.

The disconnect is in your mind.

I said you "kind of dismissed rautins and and rick jackson IN THIS ARGUMENT"

(you absolutely did, I was just being gentile by saying "kind of")

 

[RF2044]

there you go. very fair points.

Etan and Rony are def on that list as well. I'll never forget Etan fouling out in 6 minutes vs Gtown his frosh year. I was 11 at the time but thought dedrick was going to be a bust.

When I used to live in Syracuse [prior to 1999], I used to go up to watch lots of preseason practices at Manley, mostly just to get my SU hoops fix prior to when the season would start. At earlier versions of the board, I used to post a lot of those practice observations.

I don't think I've seen a more inept player than Etan coming in as a frosh. He was a good athlete and strong even as a frosh, but man -- kid didn't have a clue how to play. Every day after practice, Louis Orr used to work with him one on one to show him fundamentals of positioning, footwork, what to do with a defender on his back [Orr was 6-8, so he could play him one-on-one], etc. Etan was 100% mechanical, because he hadn't been taught any of that stuff, as hard to believe as that might seem. His improvement to sophomore year was a massive jump--even with his million dollar athleticism.

 

[CusefanATL]

Yeah... but those guys were high level contributors BEFORE their senior years. They kicked it up a notch, no argument there, but they were pretty good before senior years. Compared to, say, Rak or Z.

Are you not disagreeing with the poster that Rautins and Rick Jackson are among the most improved? And justifying it by saying that they improved "BEFORE their senior years"?

Maybe I'm reading your intent wrong?

 

[RF2044]

Are you not disagreeing with the poster that Rautins and Rick Jackson are among the most improved? And justifying it by saying that they improved "BEFORE their senior years"?

Maybe I'm reading your intent wrong?

Kind of. ; ) I don't think they necessarily belong on the list, because I think both of those players were significant contributors early on in their careers--i.e., by sophomore year, and that improvement up their respective developmental curves wasn't as steep for them from that point as it was for a few other players that I think are better examples. Simple as that. This is a discussion board, and others are free to express different opinions.

In Andy's case [in particular], I think he was better earlier in his career than many others apparently do. I wasn't as surprised by his senior year, because I believed that he could do many of the things that he showed--he was just behind Flynn and Devendorf and Harris through his junior year. When he got a chance to play 35+, he thrived.

Rick was a guy who played at a big time high school program, and was ready to contribute as a backup even his freshman year [which is more than you can say of a lot of bigs]. He got a lot better over the course of his career, like most bigs do, but I don't think it was as big of a jump as Etan, Seikaly, or Rak.

I don't dispute that Andy / Rick improved, and were high major players by the end of their careers. In this type of discussion, I think they'd both garner "honorable mention" b/c a few others showed more dramatic improvement.

 

[Dave85]

is one happy guy that he decided to transfer to SU!

I think he's one happy guy for making the Sweet 16 with his Orangemen.

 

[br801]

Etan probably improved more from when he arrived on campus than anyone. But he was a stud athlete--ditto Seikaly.

Most dramatic improvement by senior year [some of this was based upon greatly improved PT]:

• Lazarus Sims
• Allen Griffin
• Howard Triche
• Wendell Alexis
• Rak

Who'd I leave out?

Schayes, Shumpert and Southerland

 

[RF2044]

Schayes, Shumpert and Southerland

Schayes is a great one. And the player who went on to have the lengthiest NBA career of all.

 

[pulaski74]

Etan probably improved more from when he arrived on campus than anyone. But he was a stud athlete--ditto Seikaly.

Most dramatic improvement by senior year [some of this was based upon greatly improved PT]:

• Lazarus Sims
• Allen Griffin
• Howard Triche
• Wendell Alexis
• Rak

Who'd I leave out?

Wendall alexis is one of my all time favorite players, I think of him as unassuming and clutch.

 

[pulaski74]

Going off base here but anyone remember the " rocket man" chris sease, thinking christian brothers, one of the founders of SU hoops

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

Etan probably improved more from when he arrived on campus than anyone. But he was a stud athlete--ditto Seikaly.

Most dramatic improvement by senior year [some of this was based upon greatly improved PT]:

• Lazarus Sims
• Allen Griffin
• Howard Triche
• Wendell Alexis
• Rak

Who'd I leave out?

G

 

[MGP]

Yeah... but those guys were high level contributors BEFORE their senior years. They kicked it up a notch, no argument there, but they were pretty good before senior years. Compared to, say, Rak or Z.

Wendell was a pretty good freshman IIRC. Lots of minutes and averaged about 6 & 5...

 

[OttoMets]

Etan probably improved more from when he arrived on campus than anyone. But he was a stud athlete--ditto Seikaly.

Most dramatic improvement by senior year [some of this was based upon greatly improved PT]:

• Lazarus Sims
• Allen Griffin
• Howard Triche
• Wendell Alexis
• Rak

Who'd I leave out?

Andy Rautins.

 

[OttoMets]

Andy Rautins who was a bonafide scrub his freshman year and an invaluable asset borderline star his senior year.

Year One: skinny, borderline unable to play Big East basketball, legitimate question as to why he was offered a scholarship.

Year Five: played two different positions better than any of his teammates, led the best team in school history to a 28-win regular season, shot like 40% from 3 despite getting a ton of defensive attention and running our offense maybe a third of the time; drafted by the New York Knicks.

 

[Chip]

Etan probably improved more from when he arrived on campus than anyone. But he was a stud athlete--ditto Seikaly.

Most dramatic improvement by senior year [some of this was based upon greatly improved PT]:

• Lazarus Sims
• Allen Griffin
• Howard Triche
• Wendell Alexis
• Rak

Who'd I leave out?

I'll never forget Etan's freshman year, when he fouled out against Georgetown...in the 1st half...off the bench.

He was as unready as I've seen, but you're right, athletic from the get go.

He was a 100000% different basketball player when he left campus.

 

[OttoMets]

...

I don't think I've seen a more inept player than Etan coming in as a frosh. He was a good athlete and strong even as a frosh, but man -- kid didn't have a clue how to play. Every day after practice, Louis Orr used to work with him one on one to show him fundamentals of positioning, footwork, what to do with a defender on his back [Orr was 6-8, so he could play him one-on-one], etc. Etan was 100% mechanical, because he hadn't been taught any of that stuff, as hard to believe as that might seem. His improvement to sophomore year was a massive jump--even with his million dollar athleticism.

The recruit who followed him here from his high school: Greg Davis (i.e., the kid who didn't know how to run). Even a level below Sean Williams on the athletic scholarship confusion rankings. I always wonder what became of that kid.

Your point about Etan is valid, though - considering the level he played at even as a sophomore, it's incredible to think back on his freshman year follies. Very energetic, very little idea what he was doing on the court.

 

[RF2044]

The recruit who followed him here from his high school: Greg Davis (i.e., the kid who didn't know how to run). Even a level below Sean Williams on the athletic scholarship confusion rankings. I always wonder what became of that kid.

Your point about Etan is valid, though - considering the level he played at even as a sophomore, it's incredible to think back on his freshman year follies. Very energetic, very little idea what he was doing on the court.

Greg Davis... what a strange recruit he was. That was during a timeframe in the late 90s where we were really struggling on the recruiting trail [precipitating a scathing article from the PS that Boeheim had a huge negative visceral reaction to]. Davis was from the same high school program as Etan, and I always got the impression that it was JB throwing a bone to that HS coach, hoping to catch lightning in a bottle twice. Obviously, that didn't pan out.

He was one of those 6-7 guys who played the post in HS, but didn't have the capabilities to do that at the collegiate level, especially in the Big East. His only noteworthy skill IMO was that he handled the ball in the open floor reasonably well for a guy that size. Otherwise, he was too small, too light, too everything to play inside.

As I recall, he was part of a recruiting class that also included Mark McCarrol from NYC, who ended up not qualifying and then at Pitt instead. McCarrol was no world beater, either, but a solid depth player who hurt us a couple of times in the early 2000s. Which is why thinking about this particular recruiting class makes my head hurt...


EDIT: here is some info about how the rest of Greg Davis's career unfolded: http://www.orangehoops.org/GDavis.htm

 

[Cuse'91]

Etan probably improved more from when he arrived on campus than anyone. But he was a stud athlete--ditto Seikaly.

Most dramatic improvement by senior year [some of this was based upon greatly improved PT]:

• Lazarus Sims
• Allen Griffin
• Howard Triche
• Wendell Alexis
• Rak

Who'd I leave out?

I forget, what was Rick Jackson like as a frosh? Senior year, he was a post beast...

 

[OttoMets]

Greg Davis... what a strange recruit he was. That was during a timeframe in the late 90s where we were really struggling on the recruiting trail [precipitating a scathing article from the PS that Boeheim had a huge negative visceral reaction to]. Davis was from the same high school program as Etan, and I always got the impression that it was JB throwing a bone to that HS coach, hoping to catch lightning in a bottle twice. Obviously, that didn't pan out.

He was one of those 6-7 guys who played the post in HS, but didn't have the capabilities to do that at the collegiate level, especially in the Big East. His only noteworthy skill IMO was that he handled the ball in the open floor reasonably well for a guy that size. Otherwise, he was too small, too light, too everything to play inside.

As I recall, he was part of a recruiting class that also included Mark McCarrol from NYC, who ended up not qualifying and then at Pitt instead. McCarrol was no world beater, either, but a solid depth player who hurt us a couple of times in the early 2000s. Which is why thinking about this particular recruiting class makes my head hurt...


EDIT: here is some info about how the rest of Greg Davis's career unfolded: http://www.orangehoops.org/GDavis.htm

McCarroll - that's who I was referring to in the Sean Miller thread (I called him McCullough). He lit us up in 2004 at the Dome. Really would have helped us in 2001; those were some lean recruiting years.

 

[AZOrange]

I forget, what was Rick Jackson like as a frosh? Senior year, he was a post beast...

How about Warwick?