Does anybody else think Tyler Ennis' Monster Dunk ...

[tptcuse]

Message would have been received better if he hadn't blown 3 breaks leading up to that.

That being said, leading the break is the only area where he is clearly a freshman, so can't really complain about that.

boo...

 

[jordoo]

You're a smart guy, I've read your posts, I don't think I need to explain myself but will.

He posted those three I'm assuming because they're not elite athletes but made and were successful in the NBA meaning that Tyler can. I don't think it's unreasonable to say that Tyler doesn't have an elite skill (at least yet) to get the same opportunity that these men or other players have. No elite skill and less than normal NBA athleticism is not going to bode well for him in this years draft. I don't think what I'm saying is really that insane.

Now I understand what you meant and honestly it wasn't clear to me the first time. That said he has some elite skills, leadership, timing & ball IQ. I tend to think that in this draft he will have a very hard time getting into the lottery though. Unless we win it all on his back and he converts at a really high rate the rest of the way. Next draft could be a different story.

 

[jordoo]

Add ball handling and Jedi mind powers to his elite skills, forgot about those.

 

[slidingdown]

He travelled

Exactly! Perfect for the NBA!

 

[alphaorange]

Well to be in the NBA much less a hall of famer you need something.

So what exactly are Ray Felton's qualities that are so impressive? He's short, not very athletic, not a great shooter, and not a great PG. Yet, here he is year after year in the league. Ennis is very respected and while I think he could use another year, he most certainly could get drafted in this years draft,especially if he finishes strong. PGs that are true PGs are rare.

 

[pfister1]

So what exactly are Ray Felton's qualities that are so impressive? He's short, not very athletic, not a great shooter, and not a great PG. Yet, here he is year after year in the league. Ennis is very respected and while I think he could use another year, he most certainly could get drafted in this years draft,especially if he finishes strong. PGs that are true PGs are rare.

Felton played three years at UNC. He was a finalist for the Cousy and Naismith awards as a sophmore and his team won a National Championship and he won the Cousy award his junior year.

There are things that help you as a player in the draft. (1) elite athleticism (2) unusual size for your position (3) elite skills (4) an established track record of excellent results. The more you have of one, two or three the more likely that you might be drafted high as an early entrant. Obviously 4 takes time to establish and therefore isn't usually a consideration for a freshman.

When people here talk about Ennis they aren't saying that he can't ever be an NBA player, they are just saying he doesn't yet seem to have what it takes to get noticed and selected early in the draft as a frosh. Maybe they are right, maybe they are wrong. We shall see.

But it is a wholly different question from can he eventually have a career in the NBA. There are a variety of ways to do that including signing as a free agent and simply playing yourself into a spot.

 

[OttoMets]

Felton played three years at UNC. He was a finalist for the Cousy and Naismith awards as a sophmore and his team won a National Championship and he won the Cousy award his junior year.

There are things that help you as a player in the draft. (1) elite athleticism (2) unusual size for your position (3) elite skills (4) an established track record of excellent results. The more you have of one, two or three the more likely that you might be drafted high as an early entrant. Obviously 4 takes time to establish and therefore isn't usually a consideration for a freshman.

When people here talk about Ennis they aren't saying that he can't ever be an NBA player, they are just saying he doesn't yet seem to have what it takes to get noticed and selected early in the draft as a frosh. Maybe they are right, maybe they are wrong. We shall see.

But it is a wholly different question from can he eventually have a career in the NBA. There are a variety of ways to do that including signing as a free agent and simply playing yourself into a spot.

Clear, well-articulated explanation. Beats the heck out of the "of course Ennis will be a lottery pick this year, because he's great and you're too dumb to see it" post.

 

[anglerman]

Enniis has elite skills. He's as good a ball handler as SU has ever had. He virtually has no weaknesses. Hes freaky good at taking care of the ball. His control and decision making ability are absolutely at an elite level. IMO he's the best point guard to ever play here.

He makes multiple big plays at critical times in games. He's simply a dominant player and I actually believe that has he's holding back. He could actually have much bigger numbers He toys with anyone that is guarding him. He's an amazing talent and we should enjoy him for the short time he will be here.
There's a reason that there's a thread like this after almost every game. He's just a fantastic basketball player.

 

[br801]

Enniis has elite skills. He's as good a ball handler as SU has ever had. He virtually has no weaknesses. Hes freaky good at taking care of the ball. His control and decision making ability are absolutely at an elite level. IMO he's the best point guard to ever play here.

He makes multiple big plays at critical times in games. He's simply a dominant player and I actually believe that has he's holding back. He could actually have much bigger numbers He toys with anyone that is guarding him. He's an amazing talent and we should enjoy him for the short time he will be here.
There's a reason that there's a thread like this after almost every game. He's just a fantastic basketball player.

My hyperbole meter just exploded.

 

[Melancer46]

So what exactly are Ray Felton's qualities that are so impressive? He's short, not very athletic, not a great shooter, and not a great PG. Yet, here he is year after year in the league. Ennis is very respected and while I think he could use another year, he most certainly could get drafted in this years draft,especially if he finishes strong. PGs that are true PGs are rare.

1. You're correct in that he's short, and yes, he's a bit overweight and unathletic now, but at the time, he was far more athletic than Ennis currently is. Felton was one of the quickest PGs at the combine the year he went to the draft, and he ran the fastest sprint time as well. And in the vertical reach measurement, he was middle of the pack, and ahead of Chris Paul.
2. By the time Felton entered the draft, he had become a 44% 3 point shooter and he was far better than Ennis currently is in terms of finishing inside.
3. I think Ennis is like Trey Burke in the fact that he's as good as you'll see in terms of being able to handle the ball, but he doesn't have a killer cross over or anything like you see with elite PG prospects. Felton was no Chris Paul or Deron Williams (the two PGs that went ahead of him in the draft) in terms of having a killer crossover, but he was still very quick with his handle and could beat his man off the dribble with ease.

It isn't about what elite qualities Felton has now. It's about what he had back in 2005 that scouts believed would translate to the pros. At the time, he looked to have all the makings of a great PG.

At this very moment, Ennis doesn't have the quickness, speed, leaping ability, cross over, finishing ability, or defensive ability to give scouts the impression that he should be a lottery pick (IMO). I'm not saying he never will, nor am I saying he won't have a nice, long, NBA career. But I can't imagine a scout watching him play and thinking that he's worth using a lottery pick on at this point.

Edit: If you want to take a look, I just found Raymond Felton's scouting report from when he was in the draft: http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Raymond-Felton-5/

A couple quotes from it:
"With or without the ball, he is one of the fastest guards in the country, college or pro. His explosive quickness allows him to beat defenders off the dribble and dash past defenders in the open court. He can change speeds in an instant and is rarely caught off balance. On the break, he has the ability to rise above the rim and finish strong due to his great vertical."

"Felton is a rare breed these days. He is a true pass first point guard looking to get his teammates involved before looking for his own offense. He has incredible court vision and sees things develop long before they are there. On the break he is deadly. He can make difficult passes look easy and is not scared to make those passes, even in traffic."

"On defense, Felton is a tireless worker, showing great energy, desire and anticipation. He has incredibly quick hands which allow him to get to many errant passes or loose balls. He also has exceptionally quick feet and he knows how to get position, which makes him tough to beat off the dribble."

 

[SmilinBob]

TE is basically logistics. He gets the job done efficiently and on time.

 

[jordoo]

Enniis has elite skills. He's as good a ball handler as SU has ever had. He virtually has no weaknesses. Hes freaky good at taking care of the ball. His control and decision making ability are absolutely at an elite level. IMO he's the best point guard to ever play here.

He makes multiple big plays at critical times in games. He's simply a dominant player and I actually believe that has he's holding back. He could actually have much bigger numbers He toys with anyone that is guarding him. He's an amazing talent and we should enjoy him for the short time he will be here.
There's a reason that there's a thread like this after almost every game. He's just a fantastic basketball player.

While I agree with most of that he has a ways to go to show he is better than Sherm or Pearl &a multitude of others for that matter. Still he's been an absolutely stud for his first 11 games and seems to provide just what is needed in each specific game as many posters here who followed him in High School said he would.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Enniis has elite skills. He's as good a ball handler as SU has ever had. He virtually has no weaknesses. Hes freaky good at taking care of the ball. His control and decision making ability are absolutely at an elite level. IMO he's the best point guard to ever play here.

There's a reason that there's a thread like this after almost every game. He's just a fantastic basketball player.

People said the same thing about MCW at this time last season. Let's see how he's doing when mid-February rolls around before we call him the "best ever" PG we've had. I agree that he has great poise, but he's not a finished product yet, and he hasn't been too tested yet.

 

[HOFCeluck]

HOLY

Hey, here's a thought. Let's have this conversation when Ennis is the all time NCAA assists leader. Until then it may be a tad premature to label Ennis as one of/the best Syracuse PG.

 

[alphaorange]

1. You're correct in that he's short, and yes, he's a bit overweight and unathletic now, but at the time, he was far more athletic than Ennis currently is. Felton was one of the quickest PGs at the combine the year he went to the draft, and he ran the fastest sprint time as well. And in the vertical reach measurement, he was middle of the pack, and ahead of Chris Paul.
2. By the time Felton entered the draft, he had become a 44% 3 point shooter and he was far better than Ennis currently is in terms of finishing inside.
3. I think Ennis is like Trey Burke in the fact that he's as good as you'll see in terms of being able to handle the ball, but he doesn't have a killer cross over or anything like you see with elite PG prospects. Felton was no Chris Paul or Deron Williams (the two PGs that went ahead of him in the draft) in terms of having a killer crossover, but he was still very quick with his handle and could beat his man off the dribble with ease.

It isn't about what elite qualities Felton has now. It's about what he had back in 2005 that scouts believed would translate to the pros. At the time, he looked to have all the makings of a great PG.

At this very moment, Ennis doesn't have the quickness, speed, leaping ability, cross over, finishing ability, or defensive ability to give scouts the impression that he should be a lottery pick (IMO). I'm not saying he never will, nor am I saying he won't have a nice, long, NBA career. But I can't imagine a scout watching him play and thinking that he's worth using a lottery pick on at this point.

Edit: If you want to take a look, I just found Raymond Felton's scouting report from when he was in the draft: http://www.draftexpcomress.com/profile/Raymond-Felton-5/

A couple quotes from it:
"With or without the ball, he is one of the fastest guards in the country, college or pro. His explosive quickness allows him to beat defenders off the dribble and dash past defenders in the open court. He can change speeds in an instant and is rarely caught off balance. On the break, he has the ability to rise above the rim and finish strong due to his great vertical."

"Felton is a rare breed these days. He is a true pass first point guard looking to get his teammates involved before looking for his own offense. He has incredible court vision and sees things develop long before they are there. On the break he is deadly. He can make difficult passes look easy and is not scared to make those passes, even in traffic."

"On defense, Felton is a tireless worker, showing great energy, desire and anticipation. He has incredibly quick hands which allow him to get to many errant passes or loose balls. He also has exceptionally quick feet and he knows how to get position, which makes him tough to beat off the dribble."

No offense, but I've read literally hundreds of these reviews and so many of them are so wrong it is funny. For example, it also said he had the best handle in the draft. Seriously? CP3 and DWill say hello. Fastest college or pro? Ridiculous statement. He was also never an above the rim finisher, either. There is nothing blinding about any of Felton's predraft measurements, either. Nice shuttle and slightly faster than fullcourt than most but not close to the fastestin the NBA and not even in his draft class at his position. His 33" vertical is far from explosive, too. That is average for an NBA guard. I've seen his entire career and the Bobcats regretted drafting him nearly as soon as he started playing. I believe he lost his job to Augustin ...who is having trouble sticking anywhere.

 

[Melancer46]

No offense, but I've read literally hundreds of these reviews and so many of them are so wrong it is funny. For example, it also said he had the best handle in the draft. Seriously? CP3 and DWill say hello. Fastest college or pro? Ridiculous statement. He was also never an above the rim finisher, either. There is nothing blinding about any of Felton's predraft measurements, either. Nice shuttle and slightly faster than fullcourt than most but not close to the fastestin the NBA and not even in his draft class at his position. His 33" vertical is far from explosive, too. That is average for an NBA guard. I've seen his entire career and the Bobcats regretted drafting him nearly as soon as he started playing. I believe he lost his job to Augustin ...who is having trouble sticking anywhere.

They might turn out to be wrong compared to what they actually become as NBA players, but I don't think that it's a typo that literally every site that wrote a scouting report about Felton talked about his superior speed, quickness, and athleticism.

Also, his full court sprint time was one of the fastest ever recorded at the combine according to DraftExpress and his agility time was up there as well (though I think they made some sort of change to how it was measured because all of the fastest times are from 2011.

Regardless, I think it's pretty plain to see that Felton had a lot going for him in terms of an NBA prospect that Ennis does not currently have.

 

[CraigForth]

Well to be in the NBA much less a hall of famer you need something.

Haters gonna hate

 

[OttoMets]

No offense, but I've read literally hundreds of these reviews and so many of them are so wrong it is funny. For example, it also said he had the best handle in the draft. Seriously? CP3 and DWill say hello. Fastest college or pro? Ridiculous statement. He was also never an above the rim finisher, either. There is nothing blinding about any of Felton's predraft measurements, either. Nice shuttle and slightly faster than fullcourt than most but not close to the fastestin the NBA and not even in his draft class at his position. His 33" vertical is far from explosive, too. That is average for an NBA guard. I've seen his entire career and the Bobcats regretted drafting him nearly as soon as he started playing. I believe he lost his job to Augustin ...who is having trouble sticking anywhere.

I don't know if the 33" vertical is accurate for Felton or average for NBA guards, but here are last year's draft numbers: http://www.nba.com/2013/news/05/17/nba-draft-combine-results/index.html

31.5" for Mike and 29" for South (not a guard, of course). Very few guys above 33" (though that was allegedly a weak draft class as far as talent went; maybe leaping ability was worse, too).

As far as Ennis goes, we'll have to wait until his first combine to get an accurate vertical measurement. Not that it matters, but I'm guessing 27 or 28.


I contribute to this more than I should, so I'll put on my hypocrite hat for a moment, but this back-and-forth (not you, Alpha, just the thread in general) about a player's professional potential is so unpleasant. No one's proving anything here, the blind "he's gone and he'll be awesome" crowd isn't going to budge any more than those of us on the other side of the fence are, so it'd be nicer to just wait and see. And enjoy someone who's playing very well in college right now.

 

[Knicks411]

"On defense, Felton is a tireless worker, showing great energy, desire and anticipation. He has incredibly quick hands which allow him to get to many errant passes or loose balls. He also has exceptionally quick feet and he knows how to get position, which makes him tough to beat off the dribble."

Sure wish that guy was the PG for the Knicks right now, instead of whoever took over his body

 

[Melancer46]

Sure wish that guy was the PG for the Knicks right now, instead of whoever took over his body

Yeah, it's really kinda remarkable to think that once upon a time, he was looked at as one of the fastest/quickest players in the NBA.

 

[alphaorange]

Not for nothing, but nbadraft.net has Tyler @ 15 in this years draft. Apparently somebody besides me thinks he's pretty good.

 

[two3zone]

Not for nothing, but nbadraft.net has Tyler @ 15 in this years draft. Apparently somebody besides me thinks he's pretty good.

Christmas was a lottery pick on that site at the beginning of last season. I actually like that site, but the can be way off sometimes.

 

[STEVEHOLT]

what monster dunk? that breakaway? why does dunking or lack of dunking define athleticism or lack thereof? there are multiple facets to it.

 

[CraigForth]

Jeff Goodman on ESPN has Ennis as #3 Freshman in the country; ahead of Wiggins, Gordon, Embiid.

Everything coming up Orange