Does the NCAA really hate SU?

[Shark58]

I obviously look at the sports world through orange colored goggles so my view of all the action/inaction the NCAAholes have take/not taken recently seem to me to be somewhere between arbitrary & capricious to downright malevolent.

the pragmatist in me knows that there is no good reason for the NCAA to hate on Cuse. it is a high profile institution with quality recognition and #brand and has been for years. it is also part of the P5 which, with a move to separate, would cripple the NCAA as we know it.

the cynic in me sees the NCAA as wounded, dying animal who wasn't too bright to begin with. that side of me can theorize that in an attempt to remain relevant the douches are attempting to assert petty power against a high profile school, probably purposefully one the is private and thus without full public support & resources, as part of the last-ditch effort to propagate its future.

the realist in me knows that under rational scrutiny many recent NCAA rulings would crumble. this is especially true where SU is concerned.

the fan in me simply despises them

the American in me both sheds a tear at the ineptitude of what should be such a central institution to this great country, and simultaneously wishes I could get a well paid position with them where incompetence is so rewarded.

so, do you think their treatment of SU is part of the gameplan or simply a byproduct of an organization who would be the worst in organized sports if it weren't for FIFA and the IOC?

 

[Headmaster 9]

Yes to all of your last paragraph

 

[bballbeadle]

Shark, that was deep! Maybe I'm saying that because it articulates my own muddled, swirling thoughts. The tormented cry of Job echoing throughout the millennia: "WHY ME????" Or the plaintive cry through the phone of the innocent Schwartz as he's getting waled upon, "What'd I do? What'd I do?" Or perhaps the somber introspection of: "We have met the enemy and he is us."

No one likes to feel like a victim. It's also true that the innocent can be punished. Syracuse is not innocent, but hey, they're not that bad, either. We like things to fall into neat categories and we demand justice, and have no idea what that would look like. But we feel pretty damn certain it shouldn't look like this.

One would think going through this grueling experience would help us feel compassion or reserve judgment about what's going on with other programs. But more often than not it's, "Ha ha! Louisville!" or "Ha ha! Carolina!"

"Do not send to know for whom the bell tolls. It tolls for thee."

I am just glad that this wretched mess is drawing to a conclusion. At last!! Can we take down the NCAA board now? Can we just get through this suspension and then go forward, cleanly, into the light? I for one am going to try hard to do that.

p.s. Oh, and Shark? I think there are a couple people in the NCAA and a few people in sports media who dislike us intensely for reasons that are complicated and undoubtedly go back to childhoods where they were treated cruelly. Like Schwartz.

 

[NYCSUGrad]

You are quite a writer bballbeadle. Do you blog?

 

[GonzoInMD]

I can think of any two semi-logical (but not reasonable) things that people at the NCAA have against JB.

1. The whole Bernie Fine mess
2. The fact that the Fab Melo debacle happened while SU was already being investigated by the NCAA might have the powers that be the wrong way...thinking that JB was thumbing his nose at them.

 

[bballbeadle]

You are quite a writer bballbeadle. Do you blog?

No. I write here, I write emails, and I write a mean Christmas letter.

Thank you.

 

[IthacaMatt]

I can think of any two semi-logical (but not reasonable) things that people at the NCAA have against JB.

1. The whole Bernie Fine mess
2. The fact that the Fab Melo debacle happened while SU was already being investigated by the NCAA might have the powers that be the wrong way...thinking that JB was thumbing his nose at them.

The thing that I will never get over is that we already served our punishment for both Fab Melo and for Southerland, and those things were used against us again. Whatever happened to "double jeopardy"? It's amazingly unfair. The guy who oversaw the whole term paper thing was fired as soon as it was uncovered. Bernie Fine lost his job, as soon as it turned ugly. What. We already paid the fine and served our time.

 

[bevosu]

bballbeadle...when I first read it I thought the Schwartz you were referring to was Delmore...not Ralphie.

 

[Shark58]

beyond just double jeopardy there are some real fundamental and challengable flaws in the NCAA's case which is why, despite bbb's cogent wish that this is all almost behind us, I really hope it end up in the courts where the NCAAholes are subject to someone else's jurisdiction and judgement. where they have to show cause, not have the accused show innocence.

I'm no lawyer, but I've been know to play one on the internet. I know Kent is much wiser than I, but why didn't we start the appeal with the underlying "lack of institutional control"? If anything, our situation was the opposite. Our transgressions were self reported and those responsible terminated. Poor subsequent hires who only exacerbated the situation were likewise dealt with. DDG was removed as AD. Each of the violations was minor in scope and none were program endemic nor did any involve recruiting.

Once the "lack" ruling is removed, everything else falls apart because, if nothing else, without that tag they couldn't go back as far in time. it would be a shorter period of petty "crimes" that our sentence would be based on.

I'm pretty sure there are personal grudges/agendas against JB and SU, and I'd love for them to be forced out into the open. I also wish I had a pony.

 

[orangefan13]

Yes. Broken record still.

The NCAA original penalties, and the fixed appeal and the loss of a extra scholorship because the appeal took to long are rediculous. They even said they were the most severe penalties ever in college ball and they weren't even over recruiting violations or booster money but kids smoking alittle marjiuana and passing all ncaa saction drug tests just not university ones. Syracuse University is right down the road from wood stock central NY hosts much of the rock and roll hall of fame over the last 50 years. Meanwhile snoop dogg and bill walton represent the ncaa in a classy marjiuana smoking way and underage drinking doesn't rule players inelgible for a entire season. The booster money involved in our investigation was 2 players totaling in 3,200 for working a scoreboard at the ymca pathetic, and its clear someone forced us into self reporting to them.

Paterno, Dean Smith, OSU, USC, whoever else you throw in that list, penalties are nothing in comparison. And those were over illegal recruiting and academics. They loss 0 wins and if your going to take wins you have to take losses to. 100 wins is 5 entire seasons of basketball that is down right dirty and ludicrous.

Shameful.

The thing about the Bernie Fine thing is it took place off campus and had no correlation to the basketball program, yet they played it up like it did. It wasn't handled well at all. What happened between one mans social life off campus should have stayed off campus. As far as the vacation he went on part what the hell are parents doing sending their kids to travel with grown strangers and sleeping in the room with them? Bernie Fine was a adult under no way should JB have stated another adult sleep in the room with Bernie to watch him with a youth.

Then this year Diagne gets ruled inelgible despite being a outstanding prep school student in america for two years but got ruled inelgible because of a vendeta over a 9th grade class in senegal. Senegal is 141st of 180 countries in the world academically the average years kids go to school there is 4.5. On top of that we found out that Obokoh was ruled inelgible to redshirt the year before but there is a kid at Boston College who will be a year and a half older then him as a senior then Obokoh will be. Translation if he got the redshirt year he would be 6 months younger. Whoever ruled on Obokoh belongs in jail not on a ncaa committee.

JB is not responsible for 2 of his players (not recruits) going to a party on the weekend or working a ymca scoreboard and earning what totalled 3,200 hardly anything. They dug back 10 years to find that on top of it because they wanted and were hoping to find something.

The Ncaa, is corrupt punishes who it chooses and its obvious. Excuse me while I go vomit while nobody does anyting about this crap that is hurting our program. 100 wins and no losses taken is a HUGE deal on paper, even with one scholorship returned.
we are the 5th to 6th winningest program of all time last I saw those 100 wins while not taking losses drops us down that list and thats a filthy dirty vandetta by the ncaa and needs to get fixed immediately. nuff said.

 

[bballbeadle]

Yes. Broken record still.

The NCAA original penalties, and the fixed appeal and the loss of a extra scholorship because the appeal took to long are rediculous. They even said they were the most severe penalties ever in college ball and they weren't even over recruiting violations or booster money but kids smoking alittle marjiuana and passing all ncaa saction drug tests just not university ones. Syracuse University is right down the road from wood stock central NY hosts much of the rock and roll hall of fame over the last 50 years. Meanwhile snoop dogg and bill walton represent the ncaa in a classy marjiuana smoking way and underage drinking doesn't rule players inelgible for a entire season. The booster money involved in our investigation was 2 players totaling in 3,200 for working a scoreboard at the ymca pathetic, and its clear someone forced us into self reporting to them.

Paterno, Dean Smith, OSU, USC, whoever else you throw in that list, penalties are nothing in comparison. And those were over illegal recruiting and academics. They loss 0 wins and if your going to take wins you have to take losses to. 100 wins is 5 entire seasons of basketball that is down right dirty and ludicrous.

Shameful.

The thing about the Bernie Fine thing is it took place off campus and had no correlation to the basketball program, yet they played it up like it did. It wasn't handled well at all. What happened between one mans social life off campus should have stayed off campus. As far as the vacation he went on part what the hell are parents doing sending their kids to travel with grown strangers and sleeping in the room with them? Bernie Fine was a adult under no way should JB have stated another adult sleep in the room with Bernie to watch him with a youth.

Then this year Diagne gets ruled inelgible despite being a outstanding prep school student in america for two years but got ruled inelgible because of a vendeta over a 9th grade class in senegal. Senegal is 141st of 180 countries in the world academically the average years kids go to school there is 4.5. On top of that we found out that Obokoh was ruled inelgible to redshirt the year before but there is a kid at Boston College who will be a year and a half older then him as a senior then Obokoh will be. Translation if he got the redshirt year he would be 6 months younger. Whoever ruled on Obokoh belongs in jail not on a ncaa committee.

JB is not responsible for 2 of his players (not recruits) going to a party on the weekend or working a ymca scoreboard and earning what totalled 3,200 hardly anything. They dug back 10 years to find that on top of it because they wanted and were hoping to find something.

The Ncaa, is corrupt punishes who it chooses and its obvious. Excuse me while I go vomit while nobody does anyting about this crap that is hurting our program. 100 wins and no losses taken is a HUGE deal on paper, even with one scholorship returned.
we are the 5th to 6th winningest program of all time last I saw those 100 wins while not taking losses drops us down that list and thats a filthy dirty vandetta by the ncaa and needs to get fixed immediately. nuff said.

So Orangefan13, tell us what you really think!

I, also, wish for a lawsuit against the NCAA but I believe it's been said elsewhere that we don't really have a case.

There has been gross misconduct by the NCAA in dealing with Syracuse all the way around. I feel passionately about this, as do most of us. I am also ready to put it behind me. I don't want to continue to feel like a victim, which is what all this stuff makes me feel like. I need to shift my thoughts forward.

However, if someone, ANYONE, picks up their lances and charge the NCAA windmill, I will stot with happiness!

 

[Bayside44]

They hate Boeheim.

 

[RF2044]

Great thread.

 

[JOC44]

They hate Boeheim because he's old enough that he says what he thinks.

They always whack private schools because as soon as they start whacking public schools, they get put in their place. Think about it. SMU, USC, Syracuse. They whacked Penn State but then pulled back as soon as the state legislature started getting involved. Classic bully syndrome.

 

[ClamOtto]

Before the original ruling came out I strongly believed that folks who thought the NCAA was out to get SU or JB were paranoid. But the ruling makes it pretty hard to deny there's some sort of vendetta, and the NCAA's behavior since then - including the latest two-day notice of suspension - makes it seem even clearer. I think it's pretty telling too that the only sanctions reduced on appeal were the scholarships and the fine, which really affected the university and program as a whole. The suspension and reduction in wins hit JB the hardest and they were upheld. Emmert is, of course, an SU grad, so who knows how that plays into it (bending over backwards to look unbiased or he has ill will toward his alma mater). But I think the most likely explanations are what Gonzo pointed out above. They think JB is acting like he's above the NCAA and not being contrite, so they're trying to put him in his place. Plus, they only found some wisps of smoke but they're convinced there is a raging fire, so they're punishing for the fire anyway.

The organization's fundamental model is built on hypocrisy, and their implementation of said model only makes it 1000X worse. Lately my favorite unjustifiable hypocrisy has been that they didn't want to investigate UNC because vetting college coursework is not in their wheelhouse, but they have no problem stopping kids from Africa from playing because they don't like their high school coursework. Unreal.

 

[orangefan13]

They hate Boeheim because he's old enough that he says what he thinks.

They always whack private schools because as soon as they start whacking public schools, they get put in their place. Think about it. SMU, USC, Syracuse. They whacked Penn State but then pulled back as soon as the state legislature started getting involved. Classic bully syndrome.

agree, It helps being a state school. Always a advantage.

 

[Shark58]

They hate Boeheim because he's old enough that he says what he thinks.

They always whack private schools because as soon as they start whacking public schools, they get put in their place. Think about it. SMU, USC, Syracuse. They whacked Penn State but then pulled back as soon as the state legislature started getting involved. Classic bully syndrome.

agree 100% that they target privates harder because of the lack of full state support. its probably why UNC will skate too

 

[RF2044]

They hate Boeheim because he's old enough that he says what he thinks.

They always whack private schools because as soon as they start whacking public schools, they get put in their place. Think about it. SMU, USC, Syracuse. They whacked Penn State but then pulled back as soon as the state legislature started getting involved. Classic bully syndrome.

...and USC. And Miami.

 

[NashvilleOrange]

They hate Boeheim because he's old enough that he says what he thinks.

They always whack private schools because as soon as they start whacking public schools, they get put in their place. Think about it. SMU, USC, Syracuse. They whacked Penn State but then pulled back as soon as the state legislature started getting involved. Classic bully syndrome.

For sure. IF they didn't royally screw up their own case, they would have burned Miami to the ground too.

 

[Shark58]

...and USC. And Miami.

Miami got off...just like their players got off

 

[cuseinseattle]

I have always felt like the NCAA hated the old Big East. I mean they had their blue bloods and their system and then these people came along and took it all over so fast they couldn't do much to stop it. I think they have been always looking for way to slow the thing down. Like the questionable call at the end of the Michigan vs Seton Hall game in Seattle and putting Syracuse on probation the first time when we were really getting going. I'm not saying the fix was in for the end of the championship game with Seton Hall or anything but it just has always seemed to me that the NCAA resented the Big East. Maybe others feel this way not sure. I grew up on the West Coast so I'm not sure how people in the Northeast feel.

 

[Hoov50]

I blame Newhouse...

Before you all stop reading let me get to my point. If you go to any of the best sports oriented news companies in the country you are going to be constantly running into Syracuse University graduates. As they should be all of these graduates have a great deal of pride not only in their University, but in their University's athletic teams. Other lesser employees don't like hearing about Syracuse University and relish in the opportunity to report bad news about Syracuse University.

Again, before you stop reading and judge this as nonsensical, wait for me to finish my thoughts. When North Carolina and Louisville were discovered to have allegedly committed much worse offenses this is only on the news for a few days or a week at most. To anybody not wearing powder blue it is fairly obvious that North Carolina has a decades long track record of literally inventing courses for athletes to take. Hell, I think I even read that one of the college's deans was technically an employee of the athletic department. This is reported on only when something new comes to light and even then only makes into the last few minutes of Sportscenter, typically after the "Not Top 10." To anybody not living in Louisville, it is fairly obvious that there is pretty damning evidence that an employee in the athletic department was paying for strippers, sorry exotic dancers, who were nothing more than glorified hookers to "spend time" with visiting recruits. Again this was on ESPN for a week, maybe two, and now has been completely swept under the rug.

People, id est jealous employees who couldn't get into Newhouse, seem to love digging at their obviously, more intelligent and successful co-workers who were able to get into Newhouse. Making sure that the news about Syracuse's minor transgressions and the Bernie Fine case (which admittedly was mishandled at times) is a great way to stick it to their co-workers. The Bernie Fine case probably deserved a good chunk of air time, since if true it involved the harming (to put it mildly) of children. However, the reporting on Syracuse not enforcing their voluntarily created University drug policy or the reporting on players allegedly getting improper academic assistance stretched on far too long. These things seemed like they scrolled across the "Bottom Line" for months not just days like the UNC and Louisville cases.

Once the Syracuse "case" was brought to the media forefront, the pea-brained NCAA had no choice but to flex their undoubtedly PED enhanced muscles in an effort to look strong. To any logical person it is mind-blowing to see someone who was acknowledged as to having no knowledge of a situation be punished for said situation. That would be like firing a manager of a restaurant because someone was not working hard during a different shift. It's complete and utter nonsense, which is what the NCAA is in general, look at the who Diagne situation.

I am now copying in a previous post about the Diagne situation (since you have made it this far, I figure I have a captive audience for my continued shenanigans).

My next rant/statement is bleeding into the world of education in our country so if you aren't interested stop reading now.

The fact that the NCAA, full of bureaucratic idiots, somehow gets to judge the validity of high school coursework is asinine to begin with. Even with the "Common Core Learning Standards" each state is essentially left on its own when it comes to what is done in terms of education. How can a state like South Carolina (which for a long period of time, maybe even still allows anyone with a college degree in any subject to teach) be compared with a state like New York (where teachers are required to earn a Masters degree). I am sure there are plenty of great and crappy teachers in each state, but I'd be willing to bet that teachers who went to college to become teachers are using different methods than teachers who went to college for other reasons. My point being that coursework across this country is inherently different in both requirements and rigor and will continue to be different until there is a national week by week or day by day curriculum that every school district is required to follow. This even holds true in a single high school. How do we know that the 11th grade English class taught by two different teachers in the same high school is the same? Even with a set curriculum teachers can approach topics and teach those topics in different ways. My last point is, if we can't truly ensure that courses taken in different areas of our own country are the same how can the NCAA even attempt to judge courses from other countries?!

That's the end of my rant.

Ahh, never mind, it's Jim Boeheim's curtness with the media that led to all of this not Newhouse...

 

[Orange Barrel]

They whacked Penn State but then pulled back as soon as the state legislature started getting involved.

Credit for PSU's success with its appeals goes to its enormous and extremely well funded alumni association as well. They were (and remain) well organized and highly motivated, with plenty of big name sports stars, celebrities and business leaders in their corner. They went on the offensive immediately after the sanctions were announced, getting lawyers and (as you mentioned) politicians involved. They pressured the PSUBOT relentlessly to fight when the board would much rather have just moved on. They have successfully voted out every board member who supported Paterno's termination. Syracuse had nothing like that to fight back with.

To answer the OP, I don't think the NCAA hates Syracuse. I think they hate JB.

 

[orangefan13]

 

[Dave85]

I obviously look at the sports world through orange colored goggles so my view of all the action/inaction the NCAAholes have take/not taken recently seem to me to be somewhere between arbitrary & capricious to downright malevolent.

The NCAA is run by people in the South. They're just mad because they lost the civil war.