Donnie Freeman in the portal

[sufandu]

best. im sure donnie is the most talented but it wasnt meant o be.

Yeah. It'll be interesting to see if another staff can get more out of him or if he just doesn't have it in him.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Count me as someone who doesn’t care where Nait or Betsey went. I mean who cares.

I think it's a fair bet that they'll both do better next year somewhere else.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Considering a lot of euros started last year and Givony compared him to a top 5 prospect I don’t get everyone disregarding 3m.

Let's clear up one thing - Muhtinovic isn't a 5 star prospect.
He might not turn out to be much better than Fennell.
He's not fast. He's not athletic. He's basketball skilled.

Players coming from Europe may have better fundamentals than AAU "trained" US prep players, but the NCAA game is more physical and faster than other countries play.

It's like when soccer players come to the Premier League. They may have great skills, but it takes time to get used to the speed and physicality of the game in a different country.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Let's clear up one thing - Muhtinovic isn't a 5 star prospect.
He might not turn out to be much better than Fennell.
He's not fast. He's not athletic. He's basketball skilled.

Players coming from Europe may have better fundamentals than AAU "trained" US prep players, but the NCAA game is more physical and faster than other countries play.

It's like when soccer players come to the Premier League. They may have great skills, but it takes time to get used to the speed and physicality of the game in a different country.

Experts who do this for a living disagree with you. There was just a team in the FF that got by ok 80% euros with their leading rebounder and second leading scorer being one. This isn’t 1995. Euros can be better than Americans off the bat.

 

[IthacaMatt]

I feel like we are in the opposite bizarro land comparable to when Autry started. At that point most of the board was excited because we signed Starling and Westry because of their ranking despite some here real Red flags. The guys we have signed lack HS or HM pedigree, but all have produced at their previous stops.

Sounds like Eddie Lampkin, Lucas Taylor, Jyare Davis and Jaquan Carlos. They all averaged double figures at their previous stops.

It doesn't always translate. It's more likely that a player will match previous production, if the previous production was at a similar level to where you currently play.

 

[RedtheGOB]

Experts who do this for a living disagree with you. There was just a team in the FF that got by ok 80% euros with their leading rebounder and second leading scorer being one. This isn’t 1995. Euros can be better than Americans off the bat.

Stole my post. I don’t know why so many posters can find ways to ignore the expert in Givony and find a way to believe Goodman or other crap they see

 

[Cusefan0307]

Sounds like Eddie Lampkin, Lucas Taylor, Jyare Davis and Jaquan Carlos. They all averaged double figures at their previous stops.

It doesn't always translate. It's more likely that a player will match previous production, if the previous production was at a similar level to where you currently play.

It’s not the same and I’m not sure why you are bringing Lampkin into it he played at Colorado. All of those guys were undersized. The guys we brought in this year are not undersized.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

The new reality places way more emphasis on talent evaluation. In the good old days when schools like Syracuse recruited mainly high schoolers, a consensus would develop as to high school rankings. Individual colleges might like some guys more than their ranking and other guys less, but directionally, there was a whole industry who did some of the rough sorting. And then there were AAU showcases (EYBL, etc.) where you could see players against other top high school players even if the kid didn't go to a high school that was a basketball factory.

Now, with the focus on the portal, I think portal recruits fall into three broad categories:

1. Guys were were very successful at the P5 level

2. Guys who were at a P5 school but either didn't play much or didn't play great

3. Guys who played well at a level lower than the P5 level

There's actually a fourth level -- guys who didn't do much at a lower level, but I assume we're not in the mix for them.

There are hits and misses at all three levels. Obviously guys who have done well at the P5 level are, in general, the safest bets. But we would have put Nait George at that level. William Kyle was a Level 2 guy, but he worked out pretty well. And a coaching staff has to do a lot of projection and evaluation for the non-P5 guys because there's no good chance to see them that much against the caliber of talent we play against in the ACC.

My point is I don't really care where these guys played last year, particularly if they weren't bona fide stars at a top, top level. I can be thrilled with a team made up entirely of guys who didn't play at the P5 level last year plus Sadiq, Kiyan, and Moesch, if those non-P5 guys can play. We'll find out whether they can play in due course, but it's too early for me to be bummed and where our portal guys went to college doesn't move the needle at all for me.

This is solid thinking.

I just think if we end up with a bunch of non-P5 guys we're not playing great odds of actually having more talent/players with above average talent.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Experts who do this for a living disagree with you. There was just a team in the FF that got by ok 80% euros with their leading rebounder and second leading scorer being one. This isn’t 1995. Euros can be better than Americans off the bat.

It's about speed and strength. He's below average on both.
Not many 5 stars are below average athletically.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Experts who do this for a living disagree with you. There was just a team in the FF that got by ok 80% euros with their leading rebounder and second leading scorer being one. This isn’t 1995. Euros can be better than Americans off the bat.

The best players in the NBA right now are from outside of the US.

 

[RedtheGOB]

Sounds like Eddie Lampkin, Lucas Taylor, Jyare Davis and Jaquan Carlos. They all averaged double figures at their previous stops.

It doesn't always translate. It's more likely that a player will match previous production, if the previous production was at a similar level to where you currently play.

60% of shooters that shot 40% from 3 will not repeat that level their next year. No one wants to see that metric when they pay millions for their backcourt shooters.

And no one is promising mid majors will translate. The guys we got so far were wanted by P5 programs, the guys you mentioned from 2 years ago weren’t.

You’d be here whining if we lost the same guys on the roster now to some other P5 program.

 

[Cusefan0307]

It's about speed and strength. He's below average on both.
Not many 5 stars are below average athletically.

We don’t agree at all here. He’s a skilled player that will play a position for us that we’ve too often relied on the attributes you’ve mentioned and then wonder why they can’t throw it in the ocean.

 

[IthacaMatt]

60% of shooters that shot 40% from 3 will not repeat that level their next year. No one wants to see that metric when they pay millions for their backcourt shooters.

And no one is promising mid majors will translate. The guys we got so far were wanted by P5 programs, the guys you mentioned from 2 years ago weren’t.

You’d be here whining if we lost the same guys on the roster now to some other P5 program.

CuseFan0307 wants to have it both ways - he's saying productive lower level guys can do well, and he's right about that. But there is more risk when a guy moves up a level, right?

He's trying to say all 4 lower level guys we brought in 2 years ago were undersized. That's nonsense. Eddie was big, rebounded well, but played below the rim. Like Arinze did. But he was hurt to start the season. Once he got healthy, our offense was good down the stretch that year.

He says Lucas Taylor was undersized (??) when he's the same size as Tobiason. Jaquan Carlos was too small, but he was defensively player of the year in the CAA or whichever league he came from. Jyare Davis was the same height as Folefac, although Folefac has about 20 pounds on Davis and should be more sturdy defensively.

It's a crap shoot. That's all. We can be selectively biased in wanting to see what we want to see in these new players. I hope all these new guys are great, and I hope we have a killer year.

The team's not complete yet; right now, it's looking like a decent roster. But I would be surprised if we went into the ACC with this team, and finished with a winning record.

 

[RealMcNeil]

It's about speed and strength. He's below average on both.
Not many 5 stars are below average athletically.

Skill eats athleticism’s lunch.

 

[Cusefan0307]

CuseFan0307 wants to have it both ways - he's saying productive lower level guys can do well, and he's right about that. But there is more risk when a guy moves up a level, right?

He's trying to say all 4 lower level guys we brought in 2 years ago were undersized. That's nonsense. Eddie was big, rebounded well, but played below the rim. Like Arinze did. But he was hurt to start the season. Once he got healthy, our offense was good down the stretch that year.

He says Lucas Taylor was undersized (??) when he's the same size as Tobiason. Jaquan Carlos was too small, but he was defensively player of the year in the CAA or whichever league he came from. Jyare Davis was the same height as Folefac, although Folefac has about 20 pounds on Davis and should be more sturdy defensively.

It's a crap shoot. That's all. We can be selectively biased in wanting to see what we want to see in these new players. I hope all these new guys are great, and I hope we have a killer year.

The team's not complete yet; right now, it's looking like a decent roster. But I would be surprised if we went into the ACC with this team, and finished with a winning record.

Eddie played in the Pac12 Matt get it right. Carlos was tiny, had horrible metrics, and wasn’t even a top 4 player on Hofstra. And ffs we are signing Folefac to be a backup at best. People were talking about Jyare Davis like he was the second coming of Charles Barkley when he signed.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Skill eats athleticism’s lunch.

That's why we were so good with Buddy Boeheim.

 

[RedtheGOB]

CuseFan0307 wants to have it both ways - he's saying productive lower level guys can do well, and he's right about that. But there is more risk when a guy moves up a level, right?

He's trying to say all 4 lower level guys we brought in 2 years ago were undersized. That's nonsense. Eddie was big, rebounded well, but played below the rim. Like Arinze did. But he was hurt to start the season. Once he got healthy, our offense was good down the stretch that year.

He says Lucas Taylor was undersized (??) when he's the same size as Tobiason. Jaquan Carlos was too small, but he was defensively player of the year in the CAA or whichever league he came from. Jyare Davis was the same height as Folefac, although Folefac has about 20 pounds on Davis and should be more sturdy defensively.

It's a crap shoot. That's all. We can be selectively biased in wanting to see what we want to see in these new players. I hope all these new guys are great, and I hope we have a killer year.

The team's not complete yet; right now, it's looking like a decent roster. But I would be surprised if we went into the ACC with this team, and finished with a winning record.

Ok. I’ll all say is that the team last year with noticeably more talent and highly rated talent only won 1 more game than the crappy midmajor team 2 years ago. Thats also with a the same bad coaching. So clearly things don’t always add up as expected.

Personally I’m fine throwing out what we think talent is or isn’t and letting gmac shoot his shot with the roster he likes.

 

[Melancer46]

That's why we were so good with Buddy Boeheim.

We've tried athleticism with no skill and skill with no athleticism. Neither works. You have to either (1) have a minimum level of the other so that you can get by or (2) have other players that make up for your weaknesses.

Building a team around Buddy's lack of athleticism by pairing him with a bunch of other guys who also had zero athleticism was a terrible idea that was pretty much never going to work.

Likewise, building a team around an athletic guard that could get into the paint at will like Mintz while giving him nobody to kick out to/building a team where defenses could just have all 5 players sit in the paint and wait for Mintz to drive was a terrible idea that was pretty much never going to work.

If MMM is as skilled as Buddy was, we are far better equipped to be a good team built around that skillset now than we were back then. I'm skeptical that MMM is at that level right now; Buddy is still, after all, bouncing around the NBA/G-League as we speak.

 

[Willy75]

We've tried athleticism with no skill and skill with no athleticism. Neither works. You have to either (1) have a minimum level of the other so that you can get by or (2) have other players that make up for your weaknesses.

Building a team around Buddy's lack of athleticism by pairing him with a bunch of other guys who also had zero athleticism was a terrible idea that was pretty much never going to work.

Likewise, building a team around an athletic guard that could get into the paint at will like Mintz while giving him nobody to kick out to/building a team where defenses could just have all 5 players sit in the paint and wait for Mintz to drive was a terrible idea that was pretty much never going to work.

If MMM is as skilled as Buddy was, we are far better equipped to be a good team built around that skillset now than we were back then. I'm skeptical that MMM is at that level right now; Buddy is still, after all, bouncing around the NBA/G-League as we speak.

Judah Mintz had little to no interest in passing to anyone.

 

[Cheriehoop]

That's why we were so good with Buddy Boeheim.

But Clemson did great with Joe Girard. Might have more to do with a team’s makeup than any one player totally carrying a team.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Let's clear up one thing - Muhtinovic isn't a 5 star prospect.
He might not turn out to be much better than Fennell.
He's not fast. He's not athletic. He's basketball skilled.

Players coming from Europe may have better fundamentals than AAU "trained" US prep players, but the NCAA game is more physical and faster than other countries play.

It's like when soccer players come to the Premier League. They may have great skills, but it takes time to get used to the speed and physicality of the game in a different country.

Bunk. There are many 19-20 year old foreigners playing in the nba right now doing just fine.

 

[IthacaMatt]

But Clemson did great with Joe Girard. Might have more to do with a team’s makeup than any one player totally carrying a team.

Of course. The one person said skill trumps athleticism.
A good team needs enough of both. I think we all agree on that.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

I agree with you here so be shocked. I’m wondering if gmac has given any thought to paying whatever is takes to bring Donnie back. It sends a message that we can spend with the big boys and it gives us a star player on the current roster.

Let's clear up one thing - Muhtinovic isn't a 5 star prospect.
He might not turn out to be much better than Fennell.
He's not fast. He's not athletic. He's basketball skilled.

Players coming from Europe may have better fundamentals than AAU "trained" US prep players, but the NCAA game is more physical and faster than other countries play.

It's like when soccer players come to the Premier League. They may have great skills, but it takes time to get used to the speed and physicality of the game in a different country.

Umm, only an all time great performance by Steph Curry kept France from beating America's best in the Olympics. On the whole, the best players come from elsewhere. (The top 3 MVP candidates this year are foreign born.) The US just has the highest volumn of world class players.