Don't be upset that no SU recruits were named to McD's AA team

[Sgt Cuse]

Armory, I'm with you, I think this is going to be a great class. I would have liked to see some recongnition from the McD crew but that didn't happen. Still think it is a great class though.

One reason for my optimism is I think JB got several of the people he wanted. I believe he is an excellent evaluator and when he can get his top choices the future odds for SU's success rise. It had been largely rumored that JB wanted Ennis from the get go. I'm not sure where Roberson ranked but I have to believe he was top 3.

And JB really didn't need BJ. He wanted him. I learned a lot by keeping up with that massive thread on him. Stats can be misleading if the kid is only playing half the game.
Chino provides program stabilization. The timing is beautiful for him. It is a great luxury not to have to rush a big into service. He seems to have that mind set.

I think this class will help maintain SU's new level of success, battling to win 30 games per season. If Ennis stays all 4 years I think he may edge out BT for most wins in a career - yeah that kind of good.

 

[armory]

I think the issue with people's misconception regarding recruits lies largely with short-sightedness and being unable to see how certain types of players pay BIG dividends over time. To people like that, I always ask, "If you had a single scholarship to give, would you offer it to Donte Greene or CJ Fair?". Short-sightedness wouldn't hesitate to say Greene, when obviously CJ Fair has been the more valuable recruit.

That's why I love the "we recruited 4 CJ Fairs" comment. Might even go as far as saying we actually recruited 5.

 

[jimsonjunction]

Like the rest of you, I'm very excited about next year's group of guys.

And I laugh a little when people drool over these McDonald's kids. No matter who you land, you need to be able to work them into your team/system and coach them up as much as any other player. Landing a guy like Shabazz means nothing if you aren't capable of using his skills.

 

[orangecuse]

We also have G, and JB has had fairly good luck with transfers, Leo, Wes.

Does two in a 35 or so year coaching span quantify as having good luck with transfers? Just messin'...

 

[Orangezoo]

while certainly excited for whatever this season brings I feel this year is a lot like 10-11 where its a good year - one that we should make the sweet 16 ( if we dont run into another BE team thats a bad matchup) at a minimum and after that its gravy. I hate to be so keyed in on to next year but I really think next year could be another 09-10; 11-12 year where we have so much depth and talent that we really are a dominant top 3 squad. I am always all -in no matter what year it is - however I hope that my gut feeling is proven wrong and this year we shock the world somehow. With that said can't wait to see the squad next year - especially as we get a chance to start in maui.

 

[orangefog]

while certainly excited for whatever this season brings I feel this year is a lot like 10-11 where its a good year - one that we should make the sweet 16 ( if we dont run into another BE team thats a bad matchup) at a minimum and after that its gravy. I hate to be so keyed in on to next year but I really think next year could be another 09-10; 11-12 year where we have so much depth and talent that we really are a dominant top 3 squad. I am always all -in no matter what year it is - however I hope that my gut feeling is proven wrong and this year we shock the world somehow. With that said can't wait to see the squad next year - especially as we get a chance to start in maui.

I am kind of feeling the same way. This years team can certainly go on a run and go very far in the tournament. But, depending on who comes back for next year, next year could be VERY good.

 

[OrangeTown]

- especially as we get a chance to start in maui.

Offered to bring my girlfriend on a trip to Hawaii for a week or so in November, but she said she'd rather go some other time when we can spend more than a week there. Grrrrr.

I told her she'd be paying her own way then.

 

[dundundun]

I could care less about McD's AA—this is a great recruiting class.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

I think the issue with people's misconception regarding recruits lies largely with short-sightedness and being unable to see how certain types of players pay BIG dividends over time. To people like that, I always ask, "If you had a single scholarship to give, would you offer it to Donte Greene or CJ Fair?". Short-sightedness wouldn't hesitate to say Greene, when obviously CJ Fair has been the more valuable recruit.

That's why I love the "we recruited 4 CJ Fairs" comment. Might even go as far as saying we actually recruited 5.

It's not short-sighted to choose Carmelo over CJ Fair, is it? If you want to cherrypick examples, you can find many on both sides of the argument, but the single most important recruit in our history was a one-year player.

It's odd that the cheerleaders here dispute the value/validity of the rankings, and in the same breath proclaim McCullough as the most important of our (eventual) incoming personnel. Which is it?

And, the question is never really about choosing a Donte Greene over a CJ Fair, unless you have omniscience. Before they both arrived on campus, even JB would still take a Greene over a Fair.

Fact is, we're going into a conference where Duke and Carolina regularly pick up a couple of McD players EACH YEAR. Over 4 years, that's 8 of them. Talent matters, and i'm not buying claims that having Duke, NC, KY recruiting a player gives him a significant boost in the rankings. Those teams aren't the only teams going after those players. Are we also suggesting Cal, Roy, and K are inferior judges of talent than JB?

The talent is weaker/more diffused overall in recent years, but that doesn't stop me from still wanting the highest ranked players to commit to our team. Is anyone really saying Wiggins wouldn't have been a better get than Obokoh?

 

[armory]

Because Carmelo and Donte Greene are the same type of recruit. :crazy:

 

[Orangezoo]

It's not short-sighted to choose Carmelo over CJ Fair, is it? If you want to cherrypick examples, you can find many on both sides of the argument, but the single most important recruit in our history was a one-year player.

It's odd that the cheerleaders here dispute the value/validity of the rankings, and in the same breath proclaim McCullough as the most important of our (eventual) incoming personnel. Which is it?

And, the question is never really about choosing a Donte Greene over a CJ Fair, unless you have omniscience. Before they both arrived on campus, even JB would still take a Greene over a Fair.

Fact is, we're going into a conference where Duke and Carolina regularly pick up a couple of McD players EACH YEAR. Over 4 years, that's 8 of them. Talent matters, and i'm not buying claims that having Duke, NC, KY recruiting a player gives him a significant boost in the rankings. Those teams aren't the only teams going after those players. Are we also suggesting Cal, Roy, and K are inferior judges of talent than JB?

The talent is weaker/more diffused overall in recent years, but that doesn't stop me from still wanting the highest ranked players to commit to our team. Is anyone really saying Wiggins wouldn't have been a better get than Obokoh?

Tell Me How Ennis - Roberson - Patterson and even BJ are not talented enough to play in the Mcd's game? There have been so many flameout burger boys its not even funny. Dion was the 4th pick in the draft. Outside of getting one of the top 3-4 guys who are so good that they were picked for the game as Juniors it really doesn't matter.

Let me add that Mccullough would not be nearly as important if not for the class we are bringing in next year. One guy without a foundation doesn't mean crud. Melo came after Forth,Hak, Pace and having Kueth and Jeremy McNeil. We then added Gerry and Billy alongside melo. As good as melo was - he had teammates that made big time plays as well. It kills me those who act like Melo did it all himself. He gave us a bigtime weapon but he wouldn't have done it without a guy like Hak to post up or a guy like Gerry to be a bigtime shooter or even Kueth/Billy/Josh who provided the change of pace and stability. Finally Craig the spaceeater forth who set great picks and allowed no room in the middle of the zone.

 

[PeteCalvin]

Never really got too worried about the whole McD's thing. Unless the kid is a top 5 recruit then it pretty much is a crapshoot.

There are plenty of McD AA washouts. It's a really great honor for the kids and a great experience, but beyond that...eh. Yeah, I get excited when our guys are listed in that group, but I liked Warrick and McNamara just as much as I did Carmelo and Devendorf. Think about that. Devo was a Mickey D and GMac wasn't. Could it be because GMac went to a small school in Scranton and Devo went from blowing up Bay City to the #1 HS team at Oak Hill? I'm not knocking Eric at all, I'm just saying.

 

[PeteCalvin]

while certainly excited for whatever this season brings I feel this year is a lot like 10-11 where its a good year - one that we should make the sweet 16 ( if we dont run into another BE team thats a bad matchup) at a minimum and after that its gravy. I hate to be so keyed in on to next year but I really think next year could be another 09-10; 11-12 year where we have so much depth and talent that we really are a dominant top 3 squad. I am always all -in no matter what year it is - however I hope that my gut feeling is proven wrong and this year we shock the world somehow. With that said can't wait to see the squad next year - especially as we get a chance to start in maui.

Dear Orangezoo,

I have not been able to read through any of your posts in entirety. Although you use proper grammar and make very interesting points, I find it hard to pay attention to the message. Would you mind either changing your avatar or limiting your posts to one sentence? Thank you.

Sincerely,

PC

 

[Orangezoo]

Dear Orangezoo,

I have not been able to read through any of your posts in entirety. Although you use proper grammar and make very interesting points, I find it hard to pay attention to the message. Would you mind either changing your avatar or limiting your posts to one sentence? Thank you.

Sincerely,

PC

my bad- the pic i was going to use was much more distracting- ill see what i can do...lol

 

[newmexicuse]

Roberson and Johnson seem like they are quicker and more advanced than Fair at that stage, imo.

If I remembering correctly - you can't compare. I believe CJ was hurt as a senior & appeared not to re-gain 100% of his atheleticism until he was a soph here.

 

[SoBeCuse]

If I remembering correctly - you can't compare. I believe CJ was hurt as a senior & appeared not to re-gain 100% of his atheleticism until he was a soph here.

Yeah, you're right I think. Francis would know about the skillset I'm sure which I would guess these two probably are a bit more advanced back at the same stage.

 

[chlywtr]

I could care less about McD's AA—this is a great recruiting class.

don't you mean you couldn't care less?

 

[jdubs30]

I said this a month ago--we will be better next year, even if MCW leaves.

 

[orange2win]

I hope Tyler Ennis turns out to be the very best, but a case cannot be made that he should have been selected. He was listed as a 5 Star prospect on only one of the three main sites. Julius Randle and Jarrell Martin were listed as 5 Star on all three sites and were not selected. I think they have a solid case. The biggest surprise was Kennedy Meeks who was listed as a 5 Star by nobody.

 

[tee1222]

I hope Tyler Ennis turns out to be the very best, but a case cannot be made that he should have been selected. He was listed as a 5 Star prospect on only one of the three main sites. Julius Randle and Jarrell Martin were listed as 5 Star on all three sites and were not selected. I think they have a solid case. The biggest surprise was Kennedy Meeks who was listed as a 5 Star by nobody.

I was going to mention the other day, but I believe Randle is banged up, would have made it if he wasn't injured.

 

[orangefan13]

If we lose CJ Fair and Mike to the draft we will have 1 senior in Keita, and 2 Jrs in Xmas and Cooney.
Not to rain on the parade but as our upperclassmen none of them are the scorers that Fair, Triche and Southerland are.

The good news is Gbinije could be a absolute stud and technically a Jr. We will be depending on Dajuan, Grant, and a bunch of freshmen to pick up the scoring load if Rak or Cooney can't step it up some.

In truth the under vs upperclassmen conversation can be overplayed as well though. If you put the right freshmen together like Freshmen Gmac, Carmelo, Donte Greene, CJ Fair, Johnny Flynn, Billy Edelin, with a sophmore Warrick, Waiters, Devendorf, MCW, Onuaku (healthy), Fab Melo, and Rick Jackson you would have a rediculous team.

Once again I worry about isolation ball and three point shooting amoung other things. Theres alot of holes to fill. It takes some freshmen time to get used to the speed, how to score against the physical defense, and time to adjust their jumpshot at the college level.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

Because Carmelo and Donte Greene are the same type of recruit. :crazy:

You are ignoring the bit about precognition? Are you saying you or the staff knew, before they enrolled, that Carmelo would do what he did, that Donte would do what he did, and that CJ would be more valuable than Donte? Are you saying, before they enrolled, that you would have chosen CJ over Donte?

If so, maybe we should rescind Chris McCullough's schollie and offer it to a 3-star guy, because he's more likely to be around for four years.

You're probably misunderstanding me. I like the guys we have coming in. If we weren't going up against Duke and NC next year, i'd be 'happy' about the guys we have coming in the next two years. But, as it stacks up, i don't think it's quite enough. But, then, i'm not satisfied with sweet 16s and 3rd place conference finishes.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

Tell Me How Ennis - Roberson - Patterson and even BJ are not talented enough to play in the Mcd's game? There have been so many flameout burger boys its not even funny. Dion was the 4th pick in the draft. Outside of getting one of the top 3-4 guys who are so good that they were picked for the game as Juniors it really doesn't matter.

Let me add that Mccullough would not be nearly as important if not for the class we are bringing in next year. One guy without a foundation doesn't mean crud. Melo came after Forth,Hak, Pace and having Kueth and Jeremy McNeil. We then added Gerry and Billy alongside melo. As good as melo was - he had teammates that made big time plays as well. It kills me those who act like Melo did it all himself. He gave us a bigtime weapon but he wouldn't have done it without a guy like Hak to post up or a guy like Gerry to be a bigtime shooter or even Kueth/Billy/Josh who provided the change of pace and stability. Finally Craig the spaceeater forth who set great picks and allowed no room in the middle of the zone.

You're misunderstanding my argument(s).
1 / It's silly to be giddier about Chris McCullough than a 3-star recruit then to say the rankings and McD status don't matter.
2 / It's silly to not feel more confident about getting a player ranked by a bunch of services as 'top 10' than about getting one in the bottom 50-100.
3 / It's silly to suggest that because rankings aren't an exact science and cite 'flameouts' as an excuse to arbitrary designate our lower-ranked guys as exempt from flameouts. Why can't you just say, 'Hey, i love these guys because they're OUR guys" and let that stand? This thread is turning into a "Oh, we didn't get into a McD game? I didn't want to anyway — it's stupid"-type of puerile whine fest. Bottom line, we wanted Wiggins. We wanted Dakari. Didn't get them. We'll play with who ever puts on the orange and we'll 'love' them. But, pretending we didn't want Wiggins or Dakari, et al, or that their acclaim isn't somehow commensurate to expected impact is just...

Is there a chance our 4-star guy, over 4 years, will have a bigger impact than Wiggins or who ever's in the McD game? Yes, absolutely. But, if you're recruiting (or playing blackjack), which odds do you play?
4 / It's not me who's saying Ennis, Roberson, Patterson aren't talented enough to play in the McD game. It's a bunch of 'talent evaluators' who have done this for years and have the resources to see these guys play more often than you or i. They're not infallible. Doesn't mean they're not a valid guide. Citing Dion is, again, cherrypicking. That's one guy, and there were 8 years before he came along. How many Top 25 Kentucky guys are drafted in the lottery? Better odds of that than finding an occasional gem.

 

[dundundun]

Fact is, we're going into a conference where Duke and Carolina regularly pick up a couple of McD players EACH YEAR. Over 4 years, that's 8 of them. Talent matters, and i'm not buying claims that having Duke, NC, KY recruiting a player gives him a significant boost in the rankings. Those teams aren't the only teams going after those players. Are we also suggesting Cal, Roy, and K are inferior judges of talent than JB?

The talent is weaker/more diffused overall in recent years, but that doesn't stop me from still wanting the highest ranked players to commit to our team. Is anyone really saying Wiggins wouldn't have been a better get than Obokoh?

Obviously it is important to bring in talent, but I think you are falling into the trap of assuming that rankings and accolades are synonymous with talent. Is there a correlation? Yes, of course. But players go slightly under the radar (with respect to how good they really are) all the time, for a variety of reasons.

I think one of the most important things to note is what 'rankings' are actually based on. Are H.S. players ranked by their expected impact at the college level, or are they ranked more so by their potential to develop at the professional level? I would say it is generally the latter (although obviously there is a ton of intersection between the two criteria).

It is easy to point to the career trajectories of former players to make a point about rankings vs. actual production/impact (let's say Paul Harris vs. Andy Rautins), but that isn't really fair to the discussion we're having. Instead let's try and look more specifically at rankings vs. 'talent'. Mookie Jones and Kris Joseph were similarly rated players coming out of HS, but once on the hill it was immediately obvious that Joseph was on a completely different level in terms of talent; I'm not saying this retrospectively. Jerami Grant was the ~40th ranked player in his class, but it was as soon as I saw him on the floor at the beginning of this year it was obvious to me that his ranking was not nearly indicative of his actual talent.

So yes, it is nice to get McD AAs. But no, it is not necessary, and it does not reflect on a lack of talent.

 

[Knicks411]

I don't think anyone is going to question that rankings aren't perfect, but I bet they are pretty good. I bet if you took say, the top 10 guys they end up having, on average, better careers than the guys 11-20, who probably have better careers than the guys 21-30, etc.