Down goes Joshua!

[SWC75]

Andy Ruiz looked like Butterbean and fought like him. Anthony Joshua towered over him and was the body beautiful but he seemed very tentative. Then he landed an uppercut that floored Ruiz and went in for the kill. Ruiz countered and knocked down Joshua and then did it again in the third round. Both guys seemed exhausted in the fourth round and Joshua won that and the fifth with his jab. Then Ruiz got aggressive in the 6th and knocked Joshua backwards. Then he knocked him down twice in the seventh round. the referee stopped it when Joshua was up but unresponsive. Ruiz was hugely under-estimated but Joshua showed the vulnerability to a right hand that he showed in the Klitchko fight. He can be glad he wasn't in the ring with Wilder.

Meanwhile another superfight goes by the boards because the managers haggled too much and waited too long.

 

[chugg21]

Well that was unexpected.

 

[ssbriefcase]

That was insane. Second biggest upset I've seen (Douglas v Tyson). Also even more of a physical mismatch in appearance. Can't believe Ruiz just picked up 3 belts with that. Ruiz completely deserved it, hard accurate punches when he got the chance. He ate some big shots, but has a really good chin, but also from a defensive perspective, didn't let Joshua get the clean angles, and also Ruiz ducked any attempt at combo's, limiting Joshua to one punch.

 

[SWC75]

Jackie Gleason knew how Joshua must be feeling now:

 

[Toga]

 

[Toga]

Float like a butterfly. A morbidly obese butterfly.

 

[MSOrange]

I have lost any interest in boxing for the most part. I just have no interest in UFC, MMA, boxing or any sports where the goal is to hurt someone. But I did happen to catch the highlights of this fight on Sportscenter and that guy cracked me up. Physique doesn't mean everything apparently.

 

[bpo57]

I have lost any interest in boxing for the most part. I just have no interest in UFC, MMA, boxing or any sports where the goal is to hurt someone. But I did happen to catch the highlights of this fight on Sportscenter and that guy cracked me up. Physique doesn't mean everything apparently.

Boxing may be the only sport where the current stars would get crushed by the greats from yesteryear. Ali, Foreman, Frazier, Holmes, Holyfield, Tyson et al would destroy the current crop of heavyweights. Same would be true of Hearns, Hagler, Leonard and Duran when it comes to welterweights/middleweights.

 

[Toga]

Boxing may be the only sport where the current stars would get crushed by the greats from yesteryear. Ali, Foreman, Frazier, Holmes, Holyfield, Tyson et al would destroy the current crop of heavyweights. Same would be true of Hearns, Hagler, Leonard and Duran when it comes to welterweights/middleweights.

 

[ssbriefcase]

Boxing may be the only sport where the current stars would get crushed by the greats from yesteryear. Ali, Foreman, Frazier, Holmes, Holyfield, Tyson et al would destroy the current crop of heavyweights. Same would be true of Hearns, Hagler, Leonard and Duran when it comes to welterweights/middleweights.

Don't know about that. Of course in heavy's that would be the case for most, but Wilder although not a great "boxer", is always a punchers chance against any of those past guys, and Holmes is my favorite all time. Now move to welter/middle and it's not nearly as much separation. Spence and Crawford would hang with any of those guys. Go a weight class down to lightweight, and they would beat the old school lightweights imo. Lomachenko is in the conversation for pound for pound king right now, and Mikey Garcia is a great lightweight.
Don't know if you watch boxing on a regular basis, but there's some great fighters out there right now. They do suffer from the same things as before as far as matching top fighters against each other though.

 

[SWC75]

Don't know about that. Of course in heavy's that would be the case for most, but Wilder although not a great "boxer", is always a punchers chance against any of those past guys, and Holmes is my favorite all time. Now move to welter/middle and it's not nearly as much separation. Spence and Crawford would hang with any of those guys. Go a weight class down to lightweight, and they would beat the old school lightweights imo. Lomachenko is in the conversation for pound for pound king right now, and Mikey Garcia is a great lightweight.
Don't know if you watch boxing on a regular basis, but there's some great fighters out there right now. They do suffer from the same things as before as far as matching top fighters against each other though.

the thing about the heavyweight division is that it's allowed to grow. Rocky Marciano was 5-10 185. There's no one around like that now. Joe Frazier was 5-11 210 and even Mike Tyson in his prime was 5-11 216. Since Riddick Bowe and Lennox Lewis, all the contenders have been the size of basketball players. That doesn't mean our heroes from the old days couldn't beat them, 9looke at Jack Dempsey against Jess Willard and Joe Louis vs. Primo Carnera). But if the skill gap isn't enourmous, the bigger many will usually win. that's why they have divisions.

Ah, but what about Ruiz? He's 6-2 and 268. He also had faster hands and punched harder and more accurately than Joshua who had always been very protected by his managers and was a rather mechanical fighter with a suspect chin. He likely would have been defeated by the heroes of old as well as a lot of other fighters today.

 

[bpo57]

the thing about the heavyweight division is that it's allowed to grow. Rocky Marciano was 5-10 185. There's no one around like that now. Joe Frazier was 5-11 210 and even Mike Tyson in his prime was 5-11 216. Since Riddick Bowe and Lennox Lewis, all the contenders have been the size of basketball players. That doesn't mean our heroes from the old days couldn't beat them, 9looke at Jack Dempsey against Jess Willard and Joe Louis vs. Primo Carnera). But if the skill gap isn't enourmous, the bigger many will usually win. that's why they have divisions.

Ah, but what about Ruiz? He's 6-2 and 268. He also had faster hands and punched harder and more accurately than Joshua who had always been very protected by his managers and was a rather mechanical fighter with a suspect chin. He likely would have been defeated by the heroes of old as well as a lot of other fighters today.

Tyson would routinely knock out guys much bigger than him. Same with Smokin' Joe Frazier.

 

[bpo57]

Don't know about that. Of course in heavy's that would be the case for most, but Wilder although not a great "boxer", is always a punchers chance against any of those past guys, and Holmes is my favorite all time. Now move to welter/middle and it's not nearly as much separation. Spence and Crawford would hang with any of those guys. Go a weight class down to lightweight, and they would beat the old school lightweights imo. Lomachenko is in the conversation for pound for pound king right now, and Mikey Garcia is a great lightweight.
Don't know if you watch boxing on a regular basis, but there's some great fighters out there right now. They do suffer from the same things as before as far as matching top fighters against each other though.

The decline in the heavyweight ranks is not recent and has been an ongoing issue. Think about it - George Foreman won the heavyweight championship at 45 years of age, way past his prime. Lots of guys have a puncher's chance but do u really think a Wilder, Ruiz or Joshua would beat a Foreman, Tyson or Ali in their prime? They'd get beaten pretty badly imo.

Down the spectrum I was talking about welterweight and middleweights. JMO but you can't name four guys in those ranks today that could hang with Leonard, Duran, Hearns and Hagler. Those are four of the greatest fighters in boxing history, all with great hearts and serious KO power. Hearns at 6'1 and 147 lbs was a freak. I've never seen a guy at that weight with more vicious KO capability than him. Watch his KO of Pipino Cuevas or of Duran. Two of the nastiest KOs in boxing history. I think he'd kill any welterweight out there today if he were in his prime.

 

[bpo57]

Don't know about that. Of course in heavy's that would be the case for most, but Wilder although not a great "boxer", is always a punchers chance against any of those past guys, and Holmes is my favorite all time. Now move to welter/middle and it's not nearly as much separation. Spence and Crawford would hang with any of those guys. Go a weight class down to lightweight, and they would beat the old school lightweights imo. Lomachenko is in the conversation for pound for pound king right now, and Mikey Garcia is a great lightweight.
Don't know if you watch boxing on a regular basis, but there's some great fighters out there right now. They do suffer from the same things as before as far as matching top fighters against each other though.

Btw two of the old school lightweights would be Roberto Duran and Aaron Pryor. Don't know how familiar u are with those two but I don't think any current lightweight would walk through either one of those two dudes. Two of the toughest, most relentless fighters in boxing history.

 

[SWC75]

Tyson would routinely knock out guys much bigger than him. Same with Smokin' Joe Frazier.

That doesn't mean they were in the same division. A welterweight or even a lightweight might beat a middleweight but it doesn't make them a middleweight.

 

[ssbriefcase]

The decline in the heavyweight ranks is not recent and has been an ongoing issue. Think about it - George Foreman won the heavyweight championship at 45 years of age, way past his prime. Lots of guys have a puncher's chance but do u really think a Wilder, Ruiz or Joshua would beat a Foreman, Tyson or Ali in their prime? They'd get beaten pretty badly imo.

Down the spectrum I was talking about welterweight and middleweights. JMO but you can't name four guys in those ranks today that could hang with Leonard, Duran, Hearns and Hagler. Those are four of the greatest fighters in boxing history, all with great hearts and serious KO power. Hearns at 6'1 and 147 lbs was a freak. I've never seen a guy at that weight with more vicious KO capability than him. Watch his KO of Pipino Cuevas or of Duran. Two of the nastiest KOs in boxing history. I think he'd kill any welterweight out there today if he were in his prime.

I know Ruiz won last night but c'mon, you're adding him to Joshua and Wilder against all timers? I'm very well aware of the heavies of the past and present. Of course I'm not comparing Wilder to the all time greats, which you listed, but yes, he'd always have a shot, because of what he brings to the table. I named fighters I think could beat those guys on a given night in the middle and lightweight divisions, and I grew up watching the ones you listed, and have a very even keel view I think. How often do you watch boxing these days? I'd take my chances with Crawford and Spence without hesitation. I'd put $ on Lomachenko beating any lightweight. His defense alone is superior to any that Duran fought imo. Talk about relentless, he's made 3 fighters quit on the stool! Has anyone done that??

 

[bpo57]

That doesn't mean they were in the same division. A welterweight or even a lightweight might beat a middleweight but it doesn't make them a middleweight.

No lightweight would ever beat a middleweight unless the guy was a complete stiff.

 

[bpo57]

I know Ruiz won last night but c'mon, you're adding him to Joshua and Wilder against all timers? I'm very well aware of the heavies of the past and present. Of course I'm not comparing Wilder to the all time greats, which you listed, but yes, he'd always have a shot, because of what he brings to the table. I named fighters I think could beat those guys on a given night in the middle and lightweight divisions, and I grew up watching the ones you listed, and have a very even keel view I think. How often do you watch boxing these days? I'd take my chances with Crawford and Spence without hesitation. I'd put $ on Lomachenko beating any lightweight. His defense alone is superior to any that Duran fought imo. Talk about relentless, he's made 3 fighters quit on the stool! Has anyone done that??

Ruiz is the heavyweight champion of the world. That kinda says it all, right there.

 

[SWC75]

No lightweight would ever beat a middleweight unless the guy was a complete stiff.

Exactly. that's why they are different weight classes. And that's why you don't see 200 pound heavyweight contenders any more. They are more like 250 pounds.

 

[ssbriefcase]

Ruiz is the heavyweight champion of the world. That kinda says it all, right there.

Riight, and Buster Douglas was a somebody even after he beat Tyson... C'mon, that's just not reality, because of one good night, doesn't make you comparable to the best heavyweights of all time, it's just not.

I won't ask a third time how much boxing you watch these days, I'll just take it as, not a lot.

 

[bpo57]

Riight, and Buster Douglas was a somebody even after he beat Tyson... C'mon, that's just not reality, because of one good night, doesn't make you comparable to the best heavyweights of all time, it's just not.

I won't ask a third time how much boxing you watch these days, I'll just take it as, not a lot.

I watch a fair amount but certainly not as much as I did in the past. In that respect I'm like a lot of folks.

Let's try to find common ground here by going back to my original post.

1) Would u agree that by and large today's athletes are much better than athletes from 30 to 40 years ago? My sense is u believe I'm trying to do the classic old man "back in my day" routine. In no way am I doing that. I'm admitting that today's athletes are clearly better than guys from back in the day.

2) Would u also agree that it is very difficult to argue that today's top heavyweights are as good as the legends from 30 to 40 years ago ie Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Holmes, Holyfield, Tyson and Lewis? If u disagree here then please give me a better rationale than some dude has a puncher's chance.

Let's agree to disagree on the welterweights/middleweights. IMO those guys were legends but you seem to give them short shrift. As much as u question my current boxing acumen I have to wonder how closely u watched those guys back in the day.

 

[bpo57]

Exactly. that's why they are different weight classes. And that's why you don't see 200 pound heavyweight contenders any more. They are more like 250 pounds.

Big heavyweights are not a new phenomenon. Foreman, Lewis, Bowe, Klitschko all fought in the 230-250 pound range. I would argue that most boxers that enter the ring at more than 250 pounds are probably out of shape. Like Ruiz for instance. What made Frazier and Tyson unique was their height and not their weight. Both were under six feet. That was and is rather unusual.

 

[SWC75]

I watch a fair amount but certainly not as much as I did in the past. In that respect I'm like a lot of folks.

Let's try to find common ground here by going back to my original post.

1) Would u agree that by and large today's athletes are much better than athletes from 30 to 40 years ago? My sense is u believe I'm trying to do the classic old man "back in my day" routine. In no way am I doing that. I'm admitting that today's athletes are clearly better than guys from back in the day.

2) Would u also agree that it is very difficult to argue that today's top heavyweights are as good as the legends from 30 to 40 years ago ie Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Holmes, Holyfield, Tyson and Lewis? If u disagree here then please give me a better rationale than some dude has a puncher's chance.

Let's agree to disagree on the welterweights/middleweights. IMO those guys were legends but you seem to give them short shrift. As much as u question my current boxing acumen I have to wonder how closely u watched those guys back in the day.

One thing to consider is that current fighters haven't finished their resume yet. What if Joshua does what Lewis did and comes back to crush Ruiz and remains champ for most of a decade? it could happen, (Lewis looked just as bad in his losses). That would change his evaluation. The top fighters of the past have completed their achievements and their careers are set in stone in our minds.

And of course, citing the best fighters of an era is cherry picking. What about Leon Spinks, Michael Dokes, Greg Page, Trevor Berbick, Frank Bruno, Buster Douglas. How do they compare to the guys who happen to be champions in this moment? The best fighters of any era are going to be pretty good. You just don't know who they will be until the era is over.

 

[SWC75]

Big heavyweights are not a new phenomenon. Foreman, Lewis, Bowe, Klitschko all fought in the 230-250 pound range. I would argue that most boxers that enter the ring at more than 250 pounds are probably out of shape. Like Ruiz for instance. What made Frazier and Tyson unique was their height and not their weight. Both were under six feet. That was and is rather unusual.

Lewis, Bowe and Klitschko are part of the current era, in the heavyweight division, which began in the 1990's. When boxing started, most heavyweights were what we would now call light heavyweights, a division that didn't exist until 1903. Guys like Corbett and Fitisimmons would be light heavyweights now. By that time heavyweights had grown to be what we now call cruiserweights, a division that didn't exist until 1980. Since the 60's the top contenders had all been in the 220 pound range, so they created a division for boxers who were 175-190, (now it's 200). Even Frazier was about 210. there were no more Marcianos or Pattersons contending for the heavyweight title. Beginning with Bowe and Lewis, the division moved up another notch to where all the contenders are at least 6-5 or 6-6 and 240+ pounds, except Ruiz who is 6-2 but 268. Wilder at 220 pounds, is a small heavyweight these days, despite his 6-7 height, (he's a sort of heavyweight Tommy Hearns - skinny but with a huge punch). If they create a superheavyweight division, (as they should), Frazier or Tyson would not have fought in it. The fact that they may have beaten guys that size doesn't mean they should be fighting a steady diet of them. that's why there are weight classes.

You mentioned that a lightweight could not beat a middleweight unless there was large gap in their skill level. When Frazier and Tyson beat bigger guys there was such a gap and they exploited it. But look at Frazier vs. Foreman and Tyson vs. Lewis. They didn't look like they belonged in the same ring together. if you saw two guys fighting in a bar and one was 135 pounds, (a lightweight) and the other 150 pounds, (a middleweight), would that tell you who would win? Not really. But I think you'd agree that if they were both professional fighters the 150 pound guy will probably be the victor. You'd find the 135 pounder fighting as a lightweight against other 135 pounders and the middleweight fighting against other 150 pounders. the 135 pounder could beat a 150 pounder, but he shouldn't have to try to win a championship against a world of them. Why would it be any different for a 220 pounder vs. a 250 pounder? Maybe if he had Wilder's punch...

 

[ssbriefcase]

I watch a fair amount but certainly not as much as I did in the past. In that respect I'm like a lot of folks.

Let's try to find common ground here by going back to my original post.

1) Would u agree that by and large today's athletes are much better than athletes from 30 to 40 years ago? My sense is u believe I'm trying to do the classic old man "back in my day" routine. In no way am I doing that. I'm admitting that today's athletes are clearly better than guys from back in the day.

2) Would u also agree that it is very difficult to argue that today's top heavyweights are as good as the legends from 30 to 40 years ago ie Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Holmes, Holyfield, Tyson and Lewis? If u disagree here then please give me a better rationale than some dude has a puncher's chance.

Let's agree to disagree on the welterweights/middleweights. IMO those guys were legends but you seem to give them short shrift. As much as u question my current boxing acumen I have to wonder how closely u watched those guys back in the day.

1) To narrow that down I'd say boxers vs athletes. I believe there was some insane training regiments back in the day, and ring work and sparring are just that. They actually had to work toward much longer fights back then, so in some respects, I think there were boxers back in the day were better conditioned than today. Actually most of the time in any sport, I usually have an old school bias. I think I have had a good steady diet of watching boxing my entire life starting when I was 5 or 6, without much of a break through today. We watch almost every Saturday night, or I'll have fights recorded and watch later. In our house hold growing up, my step dad made it mandatory we watch every and any fight on tv (so glad he did that). He also was friends with Ron Lyle they both lived and grew up here in Parkhill, Denver. I had a few friends growing up who boxed seriously, and 2 that had quick stints as pros.

We also go to many local boxing matches, and my current favorite, Andrew Strode 6-0(google him) signed to train with Roger Mayweather. My girlfriend went to school with Andrews dad and we met and talked with them a few times.

2) I didn't try to say today's heavyweights are as good or anywhere near it today, as they were back then. Heavyweights were boxing back then, complete opposite of today. I was making a point of who could give somebody a fight. I was responding to this;
Boxing may be the only sport where the current stars would get crushed by the greats from yesteryear. Ali, Foreman, Frazier, Holmes, Holyfield, Tyson et al would destroy the current crop of heavyweights.
I think that went a little overboard, just my .02

I respect the hell out of all the old time greats in the middle/lightweight divisions, it's just that being unbiased, I can't see one of them landing as many punches on Lomachenko as they did on all of their opponents back in the day. Have you watched him fight? He had a subpar outing 2 fights ago, but he was recovering from a broken hand. Have you seen this guys training regiment? It's insane and innovative the way his dad has him going.