Dungey as the #2

[CIL]

Did Watson play because of Stoudt's injury or did he win the starting job in camp? If I remember correctly, Stoudt got hurt which opened the door for Watson and he played lights out until his injury.

In regard to your number 2 above: I think it's safe to say that our staff feels the same way about Dungey...after hunt, there is nobody on the roster better.

Watson didn't start until game 4.

 

[GoSU96]

So you're acknowledging that he's the second best QB on the roster?

Guess we'll see come Friday.

Yeesh, the issue isn't if he's #2 this year, it's that he's clearly #1 heading into next.

That's the point.

If what is likely to happen happens this season, Shafer has to be able to sell this as setting the stage, with the real take off next year, and then he has to deliver.

If he's still here, next year really is make or break. He's just lost his "impact" recruit, needs to show actual on the field upward trajectory this year, regardless of win/loss, and then deliver the goods in 2016. That's not likely to happen with a QB coming in cold.

Last year was such a Grobian level Epic disaster on offense that getting back into the 80's is going to look like tremendous improvement. He needs to push this as a 2009 reset trying to get to a 2010 type of record with a first year starter like Nassib was and build from there, with better depth this time.

 

[RF2044]

Watson didn't start until game 4.

Irrelevant. Staudt was their drew allen--a senior year hey were hoping would step up, but proved wholly inadequate. It was a foregone conclusion coming out of camp that Watson would supplant him, it was only a matter if the when.

 

[Ottoble]

If they really think he's the guy heading into next year (I think he is from a very limited view), it will only help him out to get his sea legs this year.

Watching him at fan-fest, he looked much better than any true freshman I've seen recently. What most notably stuck out to me was quick decision making.

Yup he looked solid and it puts 2 yrs between him and Rex who should RS coming off ACL.

 

[CIL]

Irrelevant. Staudt was their drew allen--a senior year hey were hoping would step up, but proved wholly inadequate. It was a foregone conclusion coming out of camp that Watson would supplant him, it was only a matter if the when.

I think it's totally relevant unless you think Terrel Hunt will take a major leap this year. However, he's played 18 games and thrown more int's than td's. Perhaps the staff feels it is a forgone conclusion that Dungey surpasses Hunt?

 

[CuseOnly]

I took a look at all the drafted QB's in the past 2 NFL drafts to see what other coaches did:

2015:
Winston- RS - Started as a RSFrosh (left early)
Mariota- RS- Started as a RSFrosh (left early)
Garrett Grayson- Played in 4 games as a true frosh starting 3
Sean Mannion- RS- Started as a RSFrosh
Bryce Petty- RS- Started as a RSSoph
Brett Hundley- RS- Started as a RSFrosh (left early)
Trevor Siemian- RS- Started as a RSSoph

2014:
Bortles- RS- Started as RSSoph (left early)
Maziel- RS- Started as RSFrosh (left early) *Won Heisman as a RSFrosh
Bridgewater- Started 8 games as a true frosh
Derek Carr- RS- Started as a RSSoph
Jimmy Garoppolo- Started 8 games as a true frosh
Logan Thomas- RS- Started as RSSoph
Tom Savage- Started 12 games as a true frosh
Aaron Murray- RS- Started as a RSFrosh
AJ McCarron- RS- Started as a RSSoph
Mettenberger- JUCO- Started in 2nd season at LSU
David Fales- RS- Transferred to SJS and started as a RSSoph
Keith Wenning- Started 10 games as a true frosh
Tajh Boyd- RS- Started as a RSSoph
Garrett Gilbert- mop up duty behind Colt McCoy- played all of BCS National Championship game after McCoy was injured on 5th play. Started as a True Soph.

History says redshirt Dungey or start the kid. Lots of these guys RS and then started as RS Frosh so I don't see why everyone thinks he needs token snaps at the end of a few games.

That being said... if they do use him in mop up duty, and the wheels fall off and we lose our 7th game making us ineligible for a bowl. Dungey should start every game from then on.

Nope. I think Dungey can run as well as Hunt. But if he's more accurate and quicker with his reads - I'd bet the staff will want him to run less. Shoot - they want Hunt to run less.

Go back and watch his senior highlights. Dungey is a really good athlete. He competed in the high jump and long jump for the first time and made the state finals.

(Feel like I'm describing Paul Bunyon a little.)

I think Dungey is actually a better runner than Hunt but at this stage an overall better QB, No.

 

[CuseOnly]

FWIW, I believe that Shafer cares deeply about his players and would put their best interests first. So while I get that there may very well be an urgent "win now" mentality, I would be very surprised if Shafer is selfishly considering burning Dungey's redshirt as merely an act of self-preservation. In other words, if Shafer felt that Dungey would be much better off as a player (and student) redshirting this year, and that playing this year would be an impediment to his long-term success, I think he would he would redshirt him.

If the coaches thought that burning his red shirt was an issue, they wouldn't be putting him at the number 2. The kid I would be willing to bet if you asked him wants to play right now, what freshman doesn't. Early playing time is on every kids mind...and how is that not in the kid's best interest?

What if you put him on the 2 deep and it so happens Hunt's helmet comes off, who goes in...Wilson, Mahoney or the kid on the 2 deep that earned it? Do you tell him to get sit when he earned the spot? What does that do to his confidence, his relationship with the coaches.

You don't put a kid on the 2-deep if you do not expect him to play. It's pretty simple. If he isn't going to play, then you announce the redshirt and sit him like AJ did last year until 82 QB's get hurt and he is forced into action.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

1. The two factions that are arguing, actually agree with each other on all key points (Dungey should get meaningful minutes this year, not mop-up hand offs). You guys are just so hell bent on arguing.

Well, yeah man. Season's starts Friday. This is basically our preseason. We all need to be in top shape to argue come Friday.

 

[RF2044]

Yeesh, the issue isn't if he's #2 this year, it's that he's clearly #1 heading into next.

That's the point.

If what is likely to happen happens this season, Shafer has to be able to sell this as setting the stage, with the real take off next year, and then he has to deliver.

If he's still here, next year really is make or break. He's just lost his "impact" recruit, needs to show actual on the field upward trajectory this year, regardless of win/loss, and then deliver the goods in 2016. That's not likely to happen with a QB coming in cold.

Last year was such a Grobian level Epic disaster on offense that getting back into the 80's is going to look like tremendous improvement. He needs to push this as a 2009 reset trying to get to a 2010 type of record with a first year starter like Nassib was and build from there, with better depth this time.

It is amazing how several posters who are generally quite knowledgeable about college football are drastically overstating the benefit / importance of getting a few token snaps as a true frosh.

The top QBs in program history performed just fine as redshirt frosh DESPITE not seeing game time as true frosh [or being rushed out onto the field before they were ready to contribute at a high level]. You brought up getting back to the 80s -- consider how things worked out for the likes of Don McPherson, Marvin Graves, and Donovan McNabb [90s]. And the same is true of RF first time starting QBs all across the collegiate landscape.

If Dungey has the chops to excel, he's going to do just fine as a RF whether he gets tablescrap snaps as a true frosh or not. Period. And after starting the first game of his RF year, he'll be completely caught up experientially to where he would be getting a modicum of snaps the preceding year.

 

[RF2044]

I think it's totally relevant unless you think Terrel Hunt will take a major leap this year. However, he's played 18 games and thrown more int's than td's. Perhaps the staff feels it is a forgone conclusion that Dungey surpasses Hunt?

What happened at Clemson is completely irrelevant to our situation, because Watson was a blue chip recruit who was better than the incumbent.

Dungey was a lightly recruited player who MAY be better than the incumbent, but the historical odds are against that being the case. And regardless of what I, you, or anybody else thinks -- it won't take Hunt much to make a "major leap" from his performance last year. I read all offseason about how OC coaching ineptitude was the problem -- we'll find out this Friday.

 

[bevosu]

The concept remains the same, just change the level of replacements to 3 and 4 star. Hunt was a 2 star. Dungey a high 3. The concept is you continue to recruit high(er) level replacements and let the chips fall. Maximizing for a 5th year happens only when you have the luxury of being good and having good options.

We haven't been good in forever. Why are we going to sacrifice the first part of next year to reap the benefits of 2019, when there's no guarantee (a) Shafer is around that long, (b) we don't recruit someone better than Dungey [arguably we have in Culpepper on paper] or (c) Dungey is even around in year 5, if he's any good? Doesn't make much sense to me.

Also, you glossed over the McNabb piece of my post. He wasn't McNabb 5th year senior level in his first 5 games of his redshirt freshman season. He struggled comparable to the rest of his career - which is what the non-redshirt supporters are saying they want Dungey to get out of the way this year, if possible.

Shafer & Syracuse's program can't afford to sit on someone with the sole purpose of giving an extra year at the back end, if Dungey is any good.

I hope Dungey turns out to be as good as some seem to be speculating. People are quick to jump from one optimistic hope to another. I'll wait and see how he performs before I get my hopes up.

Long was a 4 star...according to one recruiting site. I'm not ready to write him off...or Wilson.

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/football/recruiting/player/_/id/163520/aj-long

 

[Cuse'91]

Long was a 4 star...according to one recruiting site. I'm not ready to write him off...or Wilson.

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/football/recruiting/player/_/id/163520/aj-long

My suspicion is that ESPN never saw AJ in person, so rating is purely based on tape and stats. A 6'2" AJ Long IS a 4*; a 5'9.5" AJ Long, not so much...
Same with Womack this year, no way he is as tall as his bio stats, definitely under 6ft.
It's like some bizarro dating site where everyone lies about their vital stats...
Conversely, Eric looks legit with his height, although his legs look like toothpicks at this stage... RS Eric and get some meat on those chicken legs...

 

[TheCusian]

What happened at Clemson is completely irrelevant to our situation, because Staudt was a blue chip recruit who was better than the incumbent. Dungey was a lightly recruited player who MAY be better than the incumbent, but the historical odds are against that being the case. And regardless of what I, you, or anybody else thinks -- it won't take Hunt much to make a "major leap" from his performance last year. I read all offseason about how OC coaching ineptitude was the problem -- we'll find out this Friday.

I don't think Dungey will threaten Hunt this season unless Hunt tanks. Or he improves enough and our record is such that it's "prepping for the future" time.

What this whole thread is about is that if you can get Dungey meaningful snaps (not token) ala Nassib - you do it.

In short Dungey isn't competing with Hunt, he's competing with the other QB's that will be on the roster next season. And the staff thinks a leg up will get him closer to being the #1.

 

[SUFan44]

I hope Dungey turns out to be as good as some seem to be speculating. People are quick to jump from one optimistic hope to another. I'll wait and see how he performs before I get my hopes up.

Long was a 4 star...according to one recruiting site. I'm not ready to write him off...or Wilson.

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/football/recruiting/player/_/id/163520/aj-long

I agree with this, but I also think that if the coaches are excited enough to put him #2 heading into the season over a redshirt sophomore and another sophomore (who admittedly hasn't practiced due to injury), that says something.

Long was never a 4 star IMO - even if you watched film I didn't think he was a 4 star. Never really bought the hype honestly. He's short and lacks zip on most throws. Also lacks athleticism now that we've seen him play. Hope he improves, as I hope Wilson improves. But if Dungey is already ahead of them both at this point, I'll defer to the staff and think he's the best option moving forward.

 

[Crusty]

It may be the most interesting development this preseason. A true freshman as backup. Is it possible he is good enough to be the starter by season's end? Wouldn't that be something?

 

[upperdeck]

if hunt is playing well and loses his helmet wilson better be going in to handoff.. if su is winning enough to have a qb play a decent amount than put the #2 in. if its just about finishing the game handing off then go with wilson. if you see enough in Dungey to think he might play meaningful minutes later this year for a series each game than let him go after it. dont worry about year 4, if we are sitting here in 2019 with no QB options then we also have new coaches.

 

[Shenexon]

It may be the most interesting development this preseason. A true freshman as backup. Is it possible he is good enough to be the starter by season's end? Wouldn't that be something?

It's a wonderful topic and there have been a lot of good perspectives offered. It should be fun seeing how it plays out. Hopefully the fears documented above don't come to pass. He could be a great story.

 

[Ringostar57]

Dungey gets and knows the offense. He is smart cool confident and collected. They the coaching staff are itching to find out if the kid can do it in a game like he has done it in practice. They have a need to know and so does Dungey. To hell with redshirting.

 

[jekelish]

Here's why I like Dungey as the clear cut #2 right now, and this is keeping in mind that just backing up Terrel Hunt doesn't mean he absolutely has to play, so conceivably he COULD retain his redshirt...

As the #2 guy, he's going to get more reps against our better defenders, and playing with our better offensive weapons, than if he was redshirting and running the scout team. He's going to get a hell of a lot more reps with/against our #1 and #2 guys.

 

[RF2044]

Here's why I like Dungey as the clear cut #2 right now, and this is keeping in mind that just backing up Terrel Hunt doesn't mean he absolutely has to play, so conceivably he COULD retain his redshirt...

As the #2 guy, he's going to get more reps against our better defenders, and playing with our better offensive weapons, than if he was redshirting and running the . . . . . team. He's going to get a hell of a lot more reps with/against our #1 and #2 guys.

Yup. And as the #2, he'll also have to mentally prepare to get ready to play every week, he'll be involved in the weekly game plan, etc.

That IMO is more valuable in terms of getting him ready for next year than a few token snaps.

 

[VirginiaOrange]

Syracuse is not nearly good enough to red shirt anyone who can contribute right away. And Hunt is probably not good enough from preventing it from happening.

 

[CousCuse]

The#2 QB is always 1 play away from being the #1 QB , and has to be as prepared for that possibility as he can be.

 

[Scooch]

Yup. And as the #2, he'll also have to mentally prepare to get ready to play every week, he'll be involved in the weekly game plan, etc. That IMO is more valuable in terms of getting him ready for next year than a few token snaps.

Right, and getting snaps, token or otherwise, tends to be what a #2 QB does.

So I'm a little unclear as to what the resistance to this is now? If he gets tons of practice and prep time, and gets the chance to play some minutes where he's doing more than just handing off, then are we good with this?

 

[RF2044]

Right, and getting snaps, token or otherwise, tends to be what a #2 QB does.

So I'm a little unclear as to what the resistance to this is now? If he gets tons of practice and prep time, and gets the chance to play some minutes where he's doing more than just handing off, then are we good with this?

You have consistently misrepresented my position on this. My take is that a few token snaps aren't worth losing the player he could be in his fifth year--especially when they'd get the vast majority of benefits from being 2nd string and being involved in weekly game preparation whether they see the field or not. I also don't agree with the notion that it is imperative to get a 2nd string QB snaps because of "you have to play your best players"logic. How often is a 2nd string QB going to play, let alone have an impact on the outcome?

QB is the hardest position on the field to master. Redshirting would benefit Dungey physically, mentally, enhance his knowledge of the playbook, give him a chance to acclimate to the speed of the college game, enable the game to slow down for him, and give him a better command of his role. I'm greatly encouraged by the reports that Dungey has been impressive. I still find it highly doubtful that he'd be ready to contribute at a high level after a month of preseason camp. If that ends up being the case, then he'd be the exception to where most true freshman QB are, from a readiness standpoint.

On the other hand, if Dungey is better than Hunt, or if Hunt gets injured, then I have no problem with him playing.

After two days of posting in this thread, I'm not sure how you are still not understanding my perspective, whether you agree or disagree. I love Dungey's potential, but I think that many posters [a] have already made their minds up that Hunt stinks and won't be effective even though they haven't seen what he can do in the new offense, and are engaging in wishful thinking about a true frosh QB somehow being ready to step in effectively, or (b) that they are exhibiting a common syracusefan.com tendency to overrate our skilled players and underestimate where they are on their developmental curves.

 

[AZOrange]

I think it's totally relevant unless you think Terrel Hunt will take a major leap this year. However, he's played 18 games and thrown more int's than td's. Perhaps the staff feels it is a forgone conclusion that Dungey surpasses Hunt?

I think this is it...