Enough with the "how will we replace rick" posts!!!

[billsin01]

OK -- it is about who is there now. So, how do you like the rebounding/inside scoring/inside defense we get from Kris, CJ, Keita, Melo, and Rak?

The issue is where do you get respectable inside play (does not have to match AO or Rick). We may not miss Rick in November-December, but revisit this in January when Big East play begins in earnest.

This is the point. If you don't want to talk about RJ b/c he's yesterday's news, fine. But while i like KJ and cj, i don't see a legit post presence on this roster

 

[General20]

OK -- it is about who is there now. So, how do you like the rebounding/inside scoring/inside defense we get from Kris, CJ, Keita, Melo, and Rak?

When we lost Flynn & Devo and Harris, we gained Wes Johnson as transfer ( lottery pick, who rebounded better than Harris and did everything else better as well) and more of Andy Rautins (better outside shooting & defense) -- so you easily replaced everything except PG play. The other 4 on the court made up for our frosh PG, as Andy and Wes were great at moving the ball.

The issue is where do you get respectable inside play (does not have to match AO or Rick). We may not miss Rick in November-December, but revisit this in January when Big East play begins in earnest.

I think that the Melo/Keita combo will be fine defensively and rebounding. I think they will both improve a lot physically and be able to hold their own with any inside combo we come up against this year.

As for post scoring. I dont think we will have a lot of it. AO and Jackson have spoiled us by being absolute go-to options in the post for the last few years. Most college teams dont have that. UConn did not have a go-to post option last year and they won it all. There is more than one way to skin a cat.

Honestly, I do think that to win it all we will need Melo to get hot and play great in the tournament. But we will be good this year even if we dont get a lot of scoring from our big guys.

Another person to be considered when thinking low post scoring is Fair. He wont be a low post scorer in the traditional sense, but, he tends to be in the right places under the basket and get a lot of easy points - and that was as a Freshman. I can tell you, from watching him several times in high school, that there are depths to his offensive game we did not see next year. He had an Edelin-esque floater in high school that I think we will see in college before its all said and done, among other tricky ways to score around the basket.

 

[SkanSU]

Maybe I'm way off but it seems that JB is less impressed with scoring from the post as he is with rebounding. In his pressers he seems to always refer to the lack of rebounding from he Bigs than he refers to scoring. I think he is more oriented toward the scoring of he forwards. I think if Melo and BMK can significantly improve their rebounding and add some points that would be great ... I think rebounding by the Big guys is going to be an important key to the success of the team. We know KJo and CJ can score and add the extra rebounds necessay to be successful. Hopefully RAK will bring additional rebounding and blocks to the game as well.

 

[senorpalmer]

To echo what some others have said, there is currently not one proven post scorer on this roster. Rick was what he was...he should never be confused Coleman, Warrick, Wallace, etc, but he was an all-league performer who averaged double digits in scoring and could be a threat to drop 17-18 points on any given game day. Fair and Joseph should provide a lot of points between them, but they're different kinds of players who won't score in the same manner. Every good SU team in the last ~30 years had at least one post scorer, whether it be at center or PF. Perhaps one of Melo, BMK or Christmas develops into that kind of player this year, but it is at best a question mark. It is absolutely a valid concern to wonder if this team has a legit post scorer, and to think that if it doesn't, that this fact could hold them back a bit.

 

[fanfanclubclub]

We win that NC going away with AO while Ricky sheet the bed in that NCCAT.

This is one of the strange board memes that is very popular, despite having no basis in logic.

It is not true, at all, that the Cuse would have certainly "won that NC going away with AO." That is just a fun myth, something we like to pretend on this board, sort of like, Rautins being more valuable than Wes. The rest of the nation laughs at that sort of imaginative nonsense.

Rick beats AO by almost every measure of basketball efficiency, from the most basic, to the most advanced metrics. Rick was a better player, and he will get much more serious NBA looks than AO ever got: even before AO's injuries, pro scouts weren't interested.

Ricky was the real deal, but AO simply struck fans the right way, and so Ricky's been underrated. My guess is that AO is so beloved because he was the first effective Syracuse big man on offense since Otis Hill, so much like Nassib in football, AO gets the "we've been down so long" extra love, simply by being the first good offensive big man to come along in a decade. AO was no BE DEF POY: but AO was very good, and he did have soft hands and a spin move than kinda looked like Otis. Because the fanhood with AO is so intense, Ricky's greatness gets lost behind myths about AO's missing national championship.

 

[BlackSquirrels]

It's too bad to see a few posts ripping Rick Jackson. Did his game have holes? Sure it did. Having said that, I think he was SU's best defender in the middle of the zone since Etan Thomas. I remember a few games last year when teams were isolating big men in the lane against Melo and Keita and having success. Once Boeheim switched Jackson to the middle, teams had much more trouble scoring down low, and Jackson was still able to rebound well after contesting shots.

He was also versatile enough to play the wing of the zone.

This year's big men are obviously talented. I'm especially looking forward to seeing Keita, who was a very good rebounder in the middle last year, play without his hand wrapped. However, it seems like it takes guys a while to master positioning in the middle of the zone. (Onuaku is an example of someone who had a lot of trouble early on.) I think teams will find it easier to operate down there this year.

 

[jordoo]

This is one of the strange board memes that is very popular, despite having no basis in logic.

It is not true, at all, that the Cuse would have certainly "won that NC going away with AO." That is just a fun myth, something we like to pretend on this board, sort of like, Rautins being more valuable than Wes. The rest of the nation laughs at that sort of imaginative nonsense.

Rick beats AO by almost every measure of basketball efficiency, from the most basic, to the most advanced metrics. Rick was a better player, and he will get much more serious NBA looks than AO ever got: even before AO's injuries, pro scouts weren't interested.

Ricky was the real deal, but AO simply struck fans the right way, and so Ricky's been underrated. My guess is that AO is so beloved because he was the first effective Syracuse big man on offense since Otis Hill, so much like Nassib in football, AO gets the "we've been down so long" extra love, simply by being the first good offensive big man to come along in a decade. AO was no BE DEF POY: but AO was very good, and he did have soft hands and a spin move than kinda looked like Otis. Because the fanhood with AO is so intense, Ricky's greatness gets lost behind myths about AO's missing national championship.

AO was light years ahead of Ricky as a post player IMO. Sure both had limited range but other than against Thabeet AO was money and he set up the offense for our whole team that season. Guess what happened when we tried to set up our offense off of Ricky after AO went down? We got beat by a team that dared Ricky to make them pay and smothered our perimeter players. Sure they got away with more grabbing clutching and hip pushing than Pitt but they knew to key on Wes and Andy. Kris was also very bad as that 3rd perimeter option which didn't help. Then that team went on to face Duke in the final and Zubak hurt them inside. Imagine what a healthy AO does to Zubak, let alone Futler? I believe that with AO we win that torney just like I believed we were the best team in the country (when healthy) before AO went down.
I wouldn't argue that Rick may have been a better all around player than AO but better offensively not really close IMO. The game is still about putting the ball in the bucket, always has been and always will be. Sure you have to defend and rebound but that's all meaningless if you can't get it in the hoop.

 

[rrlbees]

Offensively NO WAY! Not even close. Look what happened when AO went down as a senior. We win that NC going away with AO while Ricky sheet the bed in that NCCAT.

While I won't go as far as to say we win the NC going away, we had a very very good shot and everyone knew that (as long as we didn't see Pitt or Lville). Some people are comparing Jackson last year to AO the year prior. AO the senior was more important to the team than Jackson the junior but what people don't remember is that they were both better together. It gave JB options to go big playing them together. While Wes and Andy were the heart of the team, AO was the soul.

 

[jordoo]

While I won't go as far as to say we win the NC going away, we had a very very good shot and everyone knew that (as long as we didn't see Pitt or Lville). Some people are comparing Jackson last year to AO the year prior. AO the senior was more important to the team than Jackson the junior but what people don't remember is that they were both better together. It gave JB options to go big playing them together. While Wes and Andy were the heart of the team, AO was the soul.

No doubt they were better together especially because Ricky was great at feeding AO from the high post, but also because Rick could play the 4 or 5 which was a huge advantage for us from his Soph to Senior seasons. Rick was a very good player for SU and I have posted nothing to put him down. He had a great career but he wasn't as good as AO as an offensive threat and he simply did not made defenses adjust the way that AO did. Plus he was a much better passer into the post than out which we learned when AO was not around and Rick was the guy down low. I'd love another player like Rick for 4 years as long as we aren't counting on him to be a big key offensively.

 

[rrlbees]

He had a great career but he wasn't as good as AO as an offensive threat and he simply did not made defenses adjust the way that AO did.

Absolutely true the year AO was a senior and Ricky a junior.

 

[jordoo]

Absolutely true the year AO was a senior and Ricky a junior.

Agreed, and the reason defenses collapsed on Rick as a senior was because we couldn't make them pay consistently for it. He was a very very good player and my posting in this thread was never meant to say anything bad about Ricky or his career at SU.

Edit: He was certainly a threat offensively as a senior but our perimeter players could have helped him out much more, and made him more effective by being less crowded.

 

[bevosu]

Maybe the question should be..how are we going to replace Riley?

Kidding. Although I'll miss him.

 

[orangefan13]

I liked AO slightly better and thats no knock on Rick.

AO could have taken on anyone offensively. Rick didn't have the face up game heigh or the ability to get by the top defenders. AO gets my vote there. If only he never got hurt.

Defensively they both get my vote, because they made the zone Tough.

 

[M2MPrinciples]

We're still trying to answer the question of how the team will replace Rautins' three-point shooting.

Come on, people. Bigger fish to fry.

 

[Knicks411]

This is one of the strange board memes that is very popular, despite having no basis in logic.

It is not true, at all, that the Cuse would have certainly "won that NC going away with AO." That is just a fun myth, something we like to pretend on this board, sort of like, Rautins being more valuable than Wes. The rest of the nation laughs at that sort of imaginative nonsense.

Agree with this. 2010 was a great team. But I don't think you can say we win the title going away or anything.

On Rick; he was a great rebounder. Last year was our second best defensive rebounding team of the kenpom era. I doubt we do as well on the defensive glass thisy ear.

 

[arbitragegls]

...believe we can actually do better rebounding...lets give Melo and Keita 10-12 a game...add in Joseph with good knees; CJ having gained a bit of weight, Christmas and our large guards and I think we do better than last year...

 

[Knicks411]

believe we can actually do better rebounding...lets give Melo and Keita 10-12 a game...add in Joseph with good knees; CJ having gained a bit of weight, Christmas and our large guards and I think we do better than last year...

Anything is possible, but I would be pretty surprised. Like I said, we usually don't do well on the defensive boards. Last year we had a 67% defensive rebound %. $50 says we finish with a lower defensive rebound% this year.

 

[billsin01]

I think that the Melo/Keita combo will be fine defensively and rebounding. I think they will both improve a lot physically and be able to hold their own with any inside combo we come up against this year.

I guess this is the part where I disagree. I HOPE Melo and Keita are at this point. I guess my feeling is that they have the potential and that if they are simply good defenders, it will be a big step forward. What I feel much of the board believes, however, is that it is a lock that these two will do this (remember, Melo couldn't stay on the floor last year and Keita had a hand that operated as a tennis racket. They have a long way to go, even with Melo shedding weight and Keita being healthy).

UConn did not have a go-to post option last year and they won it all. There is more than one way to skin a cat.

This is a fair point. I just think you tend to see more succesful JB teams that have a true post threat -- at least in terms of halfway decent scoring with pretty good defense and rebounding. I'm not sure we're where we need to be in any of the three areas.

 

[billsin01]

...believe we can actually do better rebounding...lets give Melo and Keita 10-12 a game

Are you dreaming? You say 10-12 like that's a baseline. You do realize they combined for under six last year? Yes, there is a decent chance that we are a better rebounding team as a whole and there is a chance Keita and Melo each average around 5 boards, but I would say that would mark a significant step forward for each. I'll be surprised if Melo plays 20+ mpg. I just think he's still a ways away.

 

[Flacusian]

This is one of the strange board memes that is very popular, despite having no basis in logic.

It is not true, at all, that the Cuse would have certainly "won that NC going away with AO." That is just a fun myth, something we like to pretend on this board, sort of like, Rautins being more valuable than Wes. The rest of the nation laughs at that sort of imaginative nonsense.

Rick beats AO by almost every measure of basketball efficiency, from the most basic, to the most advanced metrics. Rick was a better player, and he will get much more serious NBA looks than AO ever got: even before AO's injuries, pro scouts weren't interested.

Ricky was the real deal, but AO simply struck fans the right way, and so Ricky's been underrated. My guess is that AO is so beloved because he was the first effective Syracuse big man on offense since Otis Hill, so much like Nassib in football, AO gets the "we've been down so long" extra love, simply by being the first good offensive big man to come along in a decade. AO was no BE DEF POY: but AO was very good, and he did have soft hands and a spin move than kinda looked like Otis. Because the fanhood with AO is so intense, Ricky's greatness gets lost behind myths about AO's missing national championship.

Bingo! That's needed to be said for some time now. I've often thought the same thing myself. The assumption that we win it all had AO not gone down, while perhaps possible, certainly cannot be assumed while looking at it in a pragmatic context.

 

[OttoMets]

For what it's worth, I think Rick's production in our last 13 losses suggests he struggled when we needed a huge performance from him. Two good games and a couple of decent performances:
Pittsburgh 2 January 2010: 2-5 (0-0); 4 turnovers; 6 rebounds; 4 points.
Louisville 14 February 2010: 3-3 (0-2); 1 turnover; 7 rebounds; 6 points (and dogged it after the missed Louisville free throw that resulted in a second-chance three-pointer that broke the 50-50 tie).
Louisville 6 March 2010:4-9 (2-6); 3 turnovers; 10 rebounds; 10 points.
Georgetown 11 March 2010: 2-6 (0-0); 5 turnovers; 4 rebounds; 4 points.
Butler 25 March 2010: 2-5 (0-0); 3 turnovers; 9 rebounds; 4 points.
Pittsburgh 17 January 2011: 5-11 (0-0); 1 turnover; 11 rebounds; 10 points.
Villanova 22 January 2011: 7-9 (2-3); 5 turnovers; 15 rebounds; 16 points.
Seton Hall 25 January 2011: 6-16 (0-1); 1 turnover; 11 rebounds; 12 points.
Marquette 29 January 2011: 6-7 (2-3); 1 turnover; 4 rebounds; 14 points.
Georgetown 9 February 2011: 1-6 (2-3); 3 turnovers; 8 rebounds; 4 points.
Louisville 12 February 2011: 3-4 (1-2); 3 turnovers; 7 rebounds; 7 points.
Connecticut 11 March 2011: 6-10 (0-1); 2 turnovers; 8 rebounds; 12 points.
Marquette 20 March 2011: 3-6 (1-2); 3 turnovers; 4 rebounds; 7 points.

Those losses were the result of a lot more problems than Rick Jackson having a bad game, though - notably, a couple of memorable defensive stinkers (Louisville, Georgetown, Seton Hall).

He was an A+ rebounder, the best passing big I've seen at Syracuse in my lifetime, and we'll miss him this year. A clutch, big-game player? Perhaps not.

(As an aside, those 2011 Georgetown and Seton Hall stat lines remind me why I won't miss the Big East: hack-a-Rick went uncalled, but a flop after he dropped a shoulder into a defender got a whistle. Ugh.)

 

[OrangeMuskyFish]

I'm just not sure exactly what that shows us Otto. I think we are talking about two very obvious facts here. First, I would be willing to guess that there is a legitimate jump in most players averages in wins vs. losses. And second, that Rick Jackson was not a go-to offensive player.