Exciting win, but concerns | Page 3 | Syracusefan.com

Exciting win, but concerns

Not sure how they would be limited by set plays. You are still going to design a lot of the action to get them shots.
What our guards do best is drive - iso ball - and Bell is a shooter who hangs at the 3 point line. I think of set plays as part of a motion w/o the ball offense, with good passing.
What kind of set plays do you want? Give an example of a team that is effective that way.
 
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I think we are all nervous schedule is gnarly.

That said when we are on we are pretty damn good. And we honestly might be better suited to being the underdog which of course we will be for every game for the next month (or close to it.) Unless we play Chaminade you can forget about being favored for the next 4 weeks.
 
The early returns on this season have not been good. Man would love to be wrong but by the time they leave c'ville I expect this board will be unreadable and the ncaa tourney will be a pipe dream. I did not expect to think that.

- JJ will be great to have next year to replace Judah bc fairly similar skillset (and flaws) but as far as this years team, thus far has not looked like he can be an effective 2. I did not realize his shooting was suspect and based on form does not look promising...
- Judah is if course a fantastic talent but it's hard to imagine him ever being in an NBA rotation. I think he makes players better bc he's a good leader and tough competitor, but not via his style of play. His shot looks like it had higher ceiling than JJ, especially from 10-15 feet.
- I can't disagree with those that say it's sink or swim time for Benny, but I think a good season from Benny (unlikely but possible) is the only realistic scenario where this team is tourney caliber (unless westry gets healthy and fills that role as someone who can both shoot and drive and play d).
- the future looks somewhat promising with freeman and Moore (potentially plus a transfer) added to what will be a solid nucleus nexf year, but this year my hope for tourney has dropped from 65% to 30% through these first games.
Might I retort:

- Imho, JJ can be a very effective 2 because other than being able to hit the 3-ball, JJ has exhibited an ability to create his own shot and efficiently make the mid-range pull-up or the floater. Even in today's game, which is 3-ball heavy, if a Shooting Guard can defend, rebound, create his own shot, hit the mid-range, finish at the cup and make the occasional assist, he can still be an effective 2 - even if he can't hit the 3 consistently.

Never played college ball but have always played the 2 in intramurals and corporate leagues. Even though I was (still am) a great shooter, my shooting efficiency abruptly ENDS at the old college 3-point line bc anything beyond that distance is simply out of my range. For me, as I'm sure it is for other shooters, shooting from outside of my range requires me to change my natural shooting motion and mechanics, which is why I can bang college 3's all day but can't hit NBA 3's to save my life. But on any team I've ever played on, I've always been one the leading scorers bc I could always put the ball on the floor, dribble into my shooting comfort zone, hit a pull-up or finish at the rim (well below it! Lol).

JJ can do all of that as well. His game has EVERYTHING a successful 2-guard needs to have EXCEPT the ability to consistently hit 3's. Historically there are plenty of 2's who didn't shoot well from deep but who were still effective - D. Wade is the most obvious example of that, L. Sprewell was another. JJ doesn't have Wade's body type or Sree's elite athleticism but JJ does exhibit the skill-set to be a Wade or Spree-like 2 who gets it done without the 3-ball. Starling can defend fairly well, rebounds great for a guard, creates his own shot, makes the mid-range & the floater, finishes at the cup and makes a few assists. Imo, JJ can hoop, he just can't shoot from deep yet. But I don't think that precludes him from still being an effective Shooting Guard you can win games with.

- Same logic applies to Judah - he has all the requisite tools to an effective Point Guard but like JJ, he doesn't shoot well from deep. But his 23 pts a game prove that he can still score and an have a winning impact on games - even if he plays a little out of control at times. But with his immense talent and drive, I have confidence that Red and his staff can coach him up well enough to mold him into a winning player. As he demonstrated vs Colgate, when needed most, he was on his A-game - and he was a gd problem! He definitely needs to mature and stop feeling himself so much (pause) but I'm high on Mintz. I think he can be - or maybe already is - the team's alpha leader. And every winning team needs one.

- through the exhibitions and first three games, there has been one glaring omission from this year's team. And that's ANY sort of low post scoring presence. Obviously, Jesse moving on created that huge hole. But he's gone now and that hole still has to be filled if this team is going to win this year. 7'4 McCloud, at times, looks like he's never played basketball before? Not trying to bash the kid but he goes for HUGE stretches on offense where he's literally just standing there with his arms out looking lost? Not trying to post anyone, not trying to set screens, not looking to roll for a lob, not trying to position himself for a rebound - he's just standing there looking like, "Whadda I do now?" Other than winning every opening tip and an occasional blocked shot, I don't see much there other than extreme height.

So with McCloud being so limited offensively at this stage of his development, somebody is going to have to provide a scoring threat in the low post. I think Brown can possibly be adequate in that role, although I haven't seen much evidence of it so far this year.

And that's where I believe Benny can salvage his season/career and help this team the most. If Benny can provide some low post scoring and offensive rebounding, he could be a huge piece of the puzzle. However, if he insists - and Red allows him to continue to play out on the perimeter looking to launch 3's, unless he becomes a reliable-to-lethal 3 pt shooter, I don't see how he contributes - especially if Bell and Taylor continue to emerge as the team's primary perimeter shooters. But if Benny can develop an ability to score in the post, he could become a valuable contributor. It remains to be seen if this can happen.

Like Williams, what Westry can ultimately contribute remains a bit of a mystery. But if he can do anything CLOSE to what his HS highlight clips show, he SHOULD be able to come in and contribute - especially if he's as "pass first" as he's advertised to be. And if he can shoot, that would help too. While Kuffe hasn't "wowed" yet with his play, he has demonstrated the ability to play effective minutes, which is all you want from your back end rotational players. Hopefully, Westry can at least meet that bar and if he can be more, awesome.

- Forgive the long wind up but I said all of the above to make the point that initially caused me to reply. Before the season, considering all the off-season moves and looking at the resultant team on paper, I too thought the team had about a 55-65% chance to make the tournament this season. But unlike the poster - who said their 'tournament hopes %' of 65% has dropped down to 30% - I'm actually bullish the other way. I'm now up to about 70%.

After watching the exhibitions, the first three games and seeing Red speak multiple times, I'm now convinced that this team has the talent, heart and coaching needed to navigate their way to a tourney bid. I have no doubt that it won't always be pretty. And I fully expect bad performances as well head scratching decisions from both the players & Red throughout the course of the season - all natural for a new coach with young/new players.

But if the team stays and gets healthy (Westry/Carey?), I've seen enough talent and grit from this squad & staff - in this admittedly small sample size of games - to believe that they can finish the regular season with a winning overall record and rt at or just over .500 in ACC play. If that ends up being the record, that should be worthy of an NCAA bid.

I don't THINK I'm being overly optimistic but I admit, I could be wearing orange-tinted glasses rt now. But we shall see.
 
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I’d like to see Bell follow his shot in effort to get into position for possible rebound.
I'm sure basketball guys will disagree but following your shot is overrated and not something most great shooters do. Maybe from the corner where you're not going to get back first on defense
 
This is probably overly optimistic (but hey it’s early and we’re 3-0!) but I’m holding out hope that we’re keeping some cards close to our chest ahead of Maui. Going to be big underdogs in the first two games so maybe we are going to pull out a few tricks that we didn’t want on film.
 
If they go 1-2 I would be happy. 2-1 ecstatic. 3-0 they would be ranked pretty much in the top 10.
 
What our guards do best is drive - iso ball - and Bell is a shooter who hangs at the 3 point line. I think of set plays as part of a motion w/o the ball offense, with good passing.
What kind of set plays do you want? Give an example of a team that is effective that way.
Set plays that utilize screening. Screens put stress on the defense….will they hedge, switch or blitz? Depending how they play it you have counters to take advantage.

Set plays don’t eliminate the ability of play makers to make plays. Sets don’t always work so you need play makers to improvise. It would be nice to see some creativity on offense. Be dynamic. Iso doesn’t always work - be able to pivot to something that puts stress on the defense.
 
Might I retort:

- Imho, JJ can be a very effective 2 because other than being able to hit the 3-ball, JJ has exhibited an ability to create his own shot and efficiently make the mid-range pull-up or the floater. Even in today's game, which is 3-ball heavy, if a Shooting Guard can defend, rebound, create his own shot, hit the mid-range, finish at the cup and make the occasional assist, he can still be an effective 2 - even if he can't hit the 3 consistently.

Never played college ball but have always played the 2 in intramurals and corporate leagues. Even though I was (still am) a great shooter, my shooting efficiency abruptly ENDS at the old college 3-point line bc anything beyond that distance is simply out of my range. For me, as I'm sure it is for other shooters, shooting from outside of my range requires me to change my natural shooting motion and mechanics, which is why I can bang college 3's all day but can't hit NBA 3's to save my life. But on any team I've ever played on, I've always been one the leading scorers bc I could always put the ball on the floor, dribble into my shooting comfort zone, hit a pull-up or finish at the rim (well below it! Lol).

JJ can do all of that as well. His game has EVERYTHING a successful 2-guard needs to do EXCEPT the ability to consistently hit 3's. Historically there are plenty of 2's who didn't shoot well from deep but who were still effective - D. Wade is the most obvious example of that, L. Sprewell was another. JJ doesn't have Wade's body type or Sree's elite athleticism but JJ does exhibit the skill-set to be a Wade or Spree-like 2 who gets it done without the 3-ball. Starling can defend fairly well, rebounds great for a guard, creates his own shot, makes the mid-range & the floater, finishes at the cup and makes a few assists. Imo, JJ can hoop, he just can't shoot from deep yet. But I don't think that precludes him from still being an effective Shooting Guard you can win games with.

- Same logic applies to Judah - he has all the requisite tools to an effective Point Guard but like JJ, he doesn't shoot well from deep. But as his 23 pts a game prove that he can still score and an have a winning impact on games - even if he plays a little out of control at times. But with his immense talent and drive, I have confidence that Red and his staff can coach him up well enough to mold him into a winning player. As he demonstrated vs Colgate, when needed most, he was on his A-game - and he was a gd problem! He definitely needs to mature and stop feeling himself so much (pause) but I'm high on Mintz. I think he can be - or maybe already is - the team's alpha leader. And every winning team needs one.

- through the exhibitions and first three games, there has been one glaring omission from this year's team. And that's ANY sort of low post scoring presence. Obviously, Jesse moving on created that huge hole. But he's gone now and that hole still has to be filled if this team is going to win this year. 7'4 McCloud, at times, looks like he's never played basketball before? Not trying to bash the kid but he goes for HUGE stretches on offense where he's literally just standing there with his arms out looking lost? Not trying to post anyone, not trying to set screens, not looking to roll for a lob, not trying to position himself for a rebound - he's just standing there looking like, "Whadda I do now?" Other than winning every opening tip and an occasional blocked shot, I don't see much there other than extreme height.

So with McCloud being so limited offensively at this stage of his development, somebody is going to have to provide a scoring threat in the low post. I think Brown can possibly be adequate in that role, although I haven't seen much evidence of it so far this year.

And that's where I believe Benny can salvage his season/career and help this team the most. If Benny can provide some low post scoring and offensive rebounding, he could be a huge piece of the puzzle. However, if he insists - and Red allows him to continue to play out on the perimeter looking to launch 3's, unless he becomes a reliable-to-lethal 3 pt shooter, I don't see how he contributes - especially if Bell and Taylor continue to emerge as the team's primary perimeter shooters. But if Benny can develop an ability to score in the post, he could become a valuable contributor. It remains to be seen if this can happen.

Like Williams, what Westry can ultimately contribute remains a bit of a mystery. But if he can do anything CLOSE to what his HS highlight clips show, he SHOULD be able to come in and contribute - especially if he's as "pass first" as a he's advertised to be. And if he can shoot, that would help too. While Kuffe hasn't "wowed" yet with his play, he has demonstrated the ability to play effective minutes, which is all you want from your back end rotational players. Hopefully, Westry can at least meet that bar and if he can be more, awesome.

- Forgive the long wind up but I said all of the above to make the point that initially caused me to reply. Before the season, considering all the off-season moves and looking at the resultant team on paper, I too thought the team had about a 55-65% chance to make the tournament this season. But unlike the poster - who said their 'tournament hopes %' of 65% has dropped down to 30% - I'm actually bullish the other way. I'm now up to about 70%.

After watching the exhibitions, the first three games and seeing Red speak multiple times, I'm now convinced that this team has the talent, heart and coaching needed to navigate their way to a tourney bid. I have no doubt that it won't always be pretty. And I fully expect bad performances as well head scratching decisions from both the players & Red throughout the course of the season - all natural for a new coach with young/new players.

But if the team stays and gets healthy (Westry/Carey?), I've seen enough talent and grit from this squad & staff - in this admittedly small sample size of games - to believe that they can finish the regular season with a winning overall record and rt at or just over .500 in ACC play. If that ends up being the record, that should be worthy of an NCAA bid.

I don't THINK I'm being overly optimistic but I admit, I could be wearing orange-tinted glasses rt now. But we shall see.
This is all great. I've not seen the mid range game from JJ and his free throw stroke causes me concern as to whether it's there. And I'd quibble with the one glaring weakness comment, noting (1) yes a post up presence would be fantastic but it's kind of a dying art so the lack of it is not as fatal as it once was (in other words not every good team has this) and (2) lack of mid range shooters outside Taylor and bell is another and more significant glaring weakness. Judah may do qualify, actually I think he does. If the main premise of your post is correct - that JJ likewise can pull up from 8-15 and consistently hit shots, that would be fantastic. I agree that he be effective without being a good 3 point shooter.
 
how long does it really take to implement a defense?

cuz so far ...one still hasn't been implemented (
I think they should focus the defensive portion of practice now on how and when to help on defense...bc it seems players dont really know (at least I hope that is what it is)

(
If someone can observe practice and report back that would be great. Either the coaches are not teaching it well.. or the players just aren’t interested… or both. Let’s hope it’s just the players because that can be remedied faster than a staff shakeup.
 
... I've not seen the mid range game from JJ and his free throw stroke causes me concern as to whether it's there ... (1) yes a post up presence would be fantastic but it's kind of a dying art so the lack of it is not as fatal as it once was (in other words not every good team has this) and (2) lack of mid range shooters outside Taylor and bell is another and more significant glaring weakness. Judah may do qualify, actually I think he does. If the main premise of your post is correct - that JJ likewise can pull up from 8-15 and consistently hit shots, that would be fantastic. I agree that he be effective without being a good 3 point shooter.
From what I've seen in the 5 games thus far, JJ has primarily been scoring by finishing at or around the rim and on short pull-up jumpers & floaters. I haven't seen too many dunks and he's only made one 3. But he does appear to be comfortable shooting in that 4-15 ft range - at least, that's been my observation.

And he is scoring - he's 3rd on the team; averaging 13+ to go with an impressive 6+ boards & 4+ dimes. So while he hasn't been spectacular, JJ has been playing efficiently and appears to have lots of room for growth/in-season improvement. I really think his arrow is pointing up.

I agree with you that low post play isn't as important in today's game as it was in the past. You don't need the next Olajuwon in the post to win nowadays - and I wasn't trying to imply that. But I do think you need at least SOME kind of low post scoring ability because as they say, "live by the 3, die by the 3" - especially when 3-point shooting isn't a team strength to begin with. Playing 4 out with a 7'4 total non-scorer and poor rebounder down low will be awfully easy to defend.

Nor can you rely solely on Iso-ball or one-on-one play to get buckets. Imho, you need someone in the rotation who can get an easy bucket in the paint from the paint. Otherwise you're too perimeter oriented - and this team simply doesn't have the shooters to play that way.

If Benny could become that guy, it would be good for the team and good for him personally as it would show added diversity to his game. He doesn't have to become the next Moses or Karl Malone - just score on an occasional post up and hit the glass hard on both ends. Don't know if he has it in him, but it would be beneficial to everyone if could.
 
Unfortunately, I don't think there is a hidden shooting talent for JJ. He only shot 42% from the field and 30% from three last year at ND (on 87 attempts). He's not as bad as he's started the year, but I don't expect him to be some sort of consistent three point threat.
pretty sure he is having some kind of markelle fultz situation

he apparently had injuries to both shoulders at Notre Dame

His high school coach said he is an amazing shooter...I beleive him...

does that mean he might recover soon? idk...but I think at one point in the recent past he was and has been a great shooter
 
This is probably overly optimistic (but hey it’s early and we’re 3-0!) but I’m holding out hope that we’re keeping some cards close to our chest ahead of Maui. Going to be big underdogs in the first two games so maybe we are going to pull out a few tricks that we didn’t want on film.
Like suddenly we’ll make shots? :rolleyes:
 
Overall feeling great.. just a few stats that jumped out at me..

Outrebounded by 12. A guard was our best rebounder. Copeland had the most rebounds / minute. I wish he was the 7 footer.
Took 8 more attempts to match Colgate's 9 3s. Bell shot 14 3s. Be nice if he could be a tinch more selective. He was 3-5 from 2.
9 of 9 Colgate players scored to 7 of 9 Syracuse players.
5 of 9 Colgate players had assists to 3 of 9 Syracuse players.
We had 5 fewer PFs, at home. Maybe a difference in the game..

We may have found a defensive identity. We still need an offensive identity.

I don't see much evidence that we run an offense, yet, Swish. Nice post. Good insights.
 
no one besides Taylor/Bell/Cuffe should be shooting a 3 in the normal sets unless forced to. Maybe the walkons.

Unfortunately, four other guys are going to want to take their turns - Judah, JJ, Benny and Cope. I think the rule for all of them should be "make an inside shot before you try your first three, and if you miss from three, your next TWO shots should be inside."
 
Unfortunately, four other guys are going to want to take their turns - Judah, JJ, Benny and Cope. I think the rule for all of them should be "make an inside shot before you try your first three, and if you miss from three, your next TWO shots should be inside."
just like pick up ball.. make one to take one.
 
I'm sure basketball guys will disagree but following your shot is overrated and not something most great shooters do. Maybe from the corner where you're not going to get back first on defense
Gotta be better than standing there, no?
 
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Regarding Bell after his shot-
I call it "freezing" vs "standing there". Just looks odd, like a modified Statue Of Liberty pose.
After "sticking the landing", doesn't it make sense to at least get into a basketball stance to be READY to move, for example if a long rebound does come his way?

Regarding Benny-
Regardless of the situation, he seems to run up and down the court with the same gait of a high jumper.

Obviously neither at the top of any Concerns List, but they are frequent and distract my feeble mind from the game!
 
It’s early, but after watching the last 60 years of SU sports, I’m pretty nervous about this team. Mainly because, even with a 7’4” guy in the lineup, this team is getting embarrassed on the boards. Hope things change before the start of the ACC schedule.
 

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