2019 FIFA Women's World Cup

[STEVEHOLT]

It's stupid to you because you don't understand it. What you wrote, "someone can kick the ball at someones hand / arm and dude / woman totally accidentally makes contact with the ball with their arm / hand...completely unavoidable..and its a penalty kick" is false.

No competent official would call a hand ball when a player has their arm/hand in a natural position (near or at their side or covering their face for protection). If a player's arm/hand is away from their body in an unnatural position and makes contact with the ball it is a hand ball.

Watch a well trained defender next time they square up one v one near the box with a ball carrier who looks to shoot/pass. They frequently keep their arms by their side (or link their hands behind their back) to remove any doubt of incidental contact should it occurr.

Again, you're not understanding the rule doesn't make it stupid.

Ending a game with PKs is tough but a winner must advance in tournament play.

Oh I know the rule. The rule only becomes dumber when you dissect it further. The idea that an athlete having their arms at their sides, tight to their body, when trying to make sudden defensive moves and cover ground / area, is a "natural" position, is laughable. Try jumping or running with your arms by your side. Doesn't really work so well.

I get it though, have to artificially create goals and one way to do it is bs Pks

But i forgot about the offside rule. That is perhaps one level above stupidity of the fake handball PK phenomenon.

 

[Forza Azzurri]

It's stupid to you because you don't understand it. What you wrote, "someone can kick the ball at someones hand / arm and dude / woman totally accidentally makes contact with the ball with their arm / hand...completely unavoidable..and its a penalty kick" is false.

No competent official would call a hand ball when a player has their arm/hand in a natural position (near or at their side or covering their face for protection). If a player's arm/hand is away from their body in an unnatural position and makes contact with the ball it is a hand ball.

Watch a well trained defender next time they square up one v one near the box with a ball carrier who looks to shoot/pass. They frequently keep their arms by their side (or link their hands behind their back) to remove any doubt of incidental contact should it occurr.

Again, you're not understanding the rule doesn't make it stupid.

Ending a game with PKs is tough but a winner must advance in tournament play.

LOL...I could not figure out for the life of me who you were responding to...No quote...scrolled up and could not find any post referencing a hand ball...

Then I noticed the "show ignored content" down at the bottom...That is new as none of the regular contributors to this thread are on my ignore list.

click on "show ignored content" and, lo-and-behold, good ole Steveholt shows up with a post that is par for the course for him...

You are 100% right...keep your arm tucked in to your body and you won't get called...the interpretation is very consistently applied...

 

[STEVEHOLT]

LOL...I could not figure out for the life of me who you were responding to...No quote...scrolled up and could not find any post referencing a hand ball...

Then I noticed the "show ignored content" down at the bottom...That is new as none of the regular contributors to this thread are on my ignore list.

click on "show ignored content" and, lo-and-behold, good ole Steveholt shows up with a post that is par for the course for him...

You are 100% right...keep your arm tucked in to your body and you won't get called...the interpretation is very consistently applied...

why should you have to keep your arms by your side? it limits your mobility. if you are performing a natural motion and happen to get hit in the arm by a kick, why is that the same as sticking your arm out to purposefully deflect a shot?

 

[ForCuseSake]

Oh I know the rule. The rule only becomes dumber when you dissect it further. The idea that an athlete having their arms at their sides, tight to their body, when trying to make sudden defensive moves and cover ground / area, is a "natural" position, is laughable. Try jumping or running with your arms by your side. Doesn't really work so well.

I get it though, have to artificially create goals and one way to do it is bs Pks

But i forgot about the offside rule. That is perhaps one level above stupidity of the fake handball PK phenomenon.

I don't know what else to tell you other than you should probably just stop watching soccer if you can't grasp two of the simpler rules across sports (hand ball and offsides).

Compare soccer offsides to football offsides:

Soccer:
Was the offensive player level with the last defender when the ball was kicked?

Football:
Did any offensive player twitch after "Set"?
Was the OL drawn off by the DL?
Was the DL lined up in the neutral zone?

I love football. It's version of offside is infinitely more complicated to adjudicate than soccer.

 

[Forza Azzurri]

I don't know what else to tell you other than you should probably just stop watching soccer if you can't grasp two of the simpler rules across sports (hand ball and offsides).

Compare soccer offsides to football offsides:

Soccer:
Was the offensive player level with the last defender when the ball was kicked?

Football:
Did any offensive player twitch after "Set"?
Was the OL drawn off by the DL?
Was the DL lined up in the neutral zone?

I love football. It's version of offside is infinitely more complicated to adjudicate than soccer.

Well, offsides does get more complicated than that...

Was the players in an offside position and came back onsides to receive the ball?
Was the ball deliberately played by a member of the opposing team and the ball was intercepted by a player in an offsides position?
Is the player beyond the last defender in his own half?
Is the ball in front of the player?
Is the player involved in the play or a passive participant?

And the rule is actually not the last defender. The rule is that the second-to-last defender must be even with or between the goal and the offensive player. People take the keeper for granted but there are times when a player is between the keeper and the goal and then it looks to the last two field players.

Having said all that, if you understand the rules, it is very black and white and easy to adjudicate...other than the involved in the play one where there has to be interpretation...

I would argue that what constitutes a catch in the NFL is infinitely more complicated than either the offsides rule or the hand-ball rule...

I can watch instant replay in the NFL and have no idea whether the official is going to call it a catch or not. And neither do the announcers or the "rules expert" that they now have for every game...

 

[ForCuseSake]

Well, offsides does get more complicated than that...

Was the players in an offside position and came back onsides to receive the ball?
Was the ball deliberately played by a member of the opposing team and the ball was intercepted by a player in an offsides position?
Is the player beyond the last defender in his own half?
Is the ball in front of the player?
Is the player involved in the play or a passive participant?

And the rule is actually not the last defender. The rule is that the second-to-last defender must be even with or between the goal and the offensive player. People take the keeper for granted but there are times when a player is between the keeper and the goal and then it looks to the last two field players.

Having said all that, if you understand the rules, it is very black and white and easy to adjudicate...other than the involved in the play one where there has to be interpretation...

I would argue that what constitutes a catch in the NFL is infinitely more complicated than either the offsides rule or the hand-ball rule...

I can watch instant replay in the NFL and have no idea whether the official is going to call it a catch or not. And neither do the announcers or the "rules expert" that they now have for every game...

All good points. I focused on the scenario that triggers the infraction 85%-90% of the time (i.e. keeper on their line, back line steps up or holds a high line) and didin't enumerate the scenarios that negate offsides from consideration (defensive half of the field, defensive player's pass intercepted, etc.) as you did.

I agree, a catch (or fumble for that matter) in the NFL is infinitely more difficult to assess. I chose NFL offsides to keep it apples to apples so Steve could keep up.

 

[Forza Azzurri]

All good points. I focused on the scenario that triggers the infraction 85%-90% of the time (i.e. keeper on their line, back line steps up or holds a high line) and didin't enumerate the scenarios that negate offsides from consideration (defensive half of the field, defensive player's pass intercepted, etc.) as you did.

I agree, a catch (or fumble for that matter) in the NFL is infinitely more difficult to assess. I chose NFL offsides to keep it apples to apples so Steve could keep up.

At the end of the day, NFL rules, IMO, dwarf those of every other sport in terms of their complexity and, in this age of hi-def and instant replay, their nonsensicality. The tuck rule? What is a catch?

If you like the NFL and you are b!tching about the rules in any other sport (baseball, basketball, hockey, soccer, lacrosse), then you are simply grasping at straws and I can't be bothered to take you seriously.

 

[DeGrozz]

I like how every World Cup thread always devolves into someone who watches soccer a few times per year deciding that there needs to be significant change to the rules of the worlds most popular and most celebrated game.

 

[creatorsgam]

I like how every World Cup thread always devolves into someone who watches soccer a few times per year deciding that there needs to be significant change to the rules of the worlds most popular and most celebrated game.

Never fails.

 

[Forza Azzurri]

I like how every World Cup thread always devolves into someone who watches soccer a few times per year deciding that there needs to be significant change to the rules of the worlds most popular and most celebrated game.

Yes, although it is more the "few times a year" combined with "what is wrong with the sport" that is the issue.

I have to admit that I absolutely hate the penalty shootout. I think it is, without question, THE dumbest way to end a game. I think it encourages teams to play conservatively because, for some reason, it seems to be less offensive to lose on penalties than on the field of play. It helps the less talented team. It helps the less conditioned team. It helps the team playing down a man. It helps the team that is being dominated. it helps the team that has no interest in doing anything but bunkering. All the things that should not happen.

You want to play defensively? Fine. Play for 240 minutes in a knockout round game and then see how you fare in the next round with no legs.

If a baseball game can go on for 5-6 hours, let the soccer game continue until there is a winner.

I think forcing teams to play until a goal is scored would encourage them to try and win the game as quickly as possible rather than shutting everything down and waiting for spot kicks.

You want to add a sub every 30 minutes? Fine. Advantage to the team with more depth.

 

[BuffOrange]

I like how every World Cup thread always devolves into someone who watches soccer a few times per year deciding that there needs to be significant change to the rules of the worlds most popular and most celebrated game.

Followed by soccer guy getting incredibly defensive and needing to bring up worldwide popularity.
American football is quite popular here in the states but I'm secure enough to say some of the rules are trash and replay stinks. It's a shame you guys caved on the monster that is replay.

 

[DeGrozz]

Followed by soccer guy getting incredibly defensive and needing to bring up worldwide popularity.
American football is quite popular here in the states but I'm secure enough to say some of the rules are trash and replay stinks. It's a shame you guys caved on the monster that is replay.

A reasonable discussion about changes to the rules of the game is fine. Don't like the way tie games end in elimination play? Perfectly reasonable to bring up -- soccer has been trying to find the right answer to that for decades. Want more leniency in the 'natural hand position' calls on handballs? It's something that a lot of fans discuss. Say that the offsides rule is the dumbest rule in sports? Then you are trying to argue against the fundamentals of the game. It's like asking baseball to eliminate foul territory, or football to eliminate its offsides rule.

People who bring stuff like that up are basically the really annoying person at the Super Bowl party who says stupid stuff all game like "Why don't they just tackle the receivers when they snap the ball so they can't get open" or "It's soooo dumb you can throw the ball forward after the line of scrimmage."

But, thanks for letting us know how secure you are.

 

[Forza Azzurri]

Followed by soccer guy getting incredibly defensive and needing to bring up worldwide popularity.
American football is quite popular here in the states but I'm secure enough to say some of the rules are trash and replay stinks. It's a shame you guys caved on the monster that is replay.

Yes, but I get his point. It would be like me watching a game of cricket and saying how stupid it is that they let them hit the ball backwards (they do let them do that, right?)

I feel ok critiquing football, soccer, basketball and lacrosse because I watch them all on a regular basis.

I don't critique things I don't watch.

SteveHolt has never shown up in this thread. Ever. Then, all of sudden he shows up to tell everyone on this thread how stupid the hand-ball rule is. How much soccer do you think he really watches? It was just a post and there was no need for it.

What type of response did he really think he was going to get from the group of us on this thread who are really into the sport?

 

[ForCuseSake]

What a game.

Can’t believe Crystal Dunn held up during that onslaught. She’s my MVP. One tough lady.

 

[NailstheCusefan12]

 

[creatorsgam]

What a game.

Can’t believe Crystal Dunn held up during that onslaught. She’s my MVP. One tough lady.

Dunn was great. The back 4 as a group were outstanding, for the most part. Playing back on their heels after the 2nd Rapinoe goal... the team held on. Survive and advance.

Bring on England.

 

[orangenauburn]

Dare to Shine

 

[STEVEHOLT]

Yes, but I get his point. It would be like me watching a game of cricket and saying how stupid it is that they let them hit the ball backwards (they do let them do that, right?)

I feel ok critiquing football, soccer, basketball and lacrosse because I watch them all on a regular basis.

I don't critique things I don't watch.

SteveHolt has never shown up in this thread. Ever. Then, all of sudden he shows up to tell everyone on this thread how stupid the hand-ball rule is. How much soccer do you think he really watches? It was just a post and there was no need for it.

What type of response did he really think he was going to get from the group of us on this thread who are really into the sport?

actually, the reason I chimed in had nothing to do with anything beyond your criticizing others sports rules. I didn't start this.

By the way, what about the no call handball in the game today? Sure looked like a hand ball according to you definition of the rules.

and as far as offside goes, Im don't care about the complexity of the rule, my issue is with the conceptual basis of it.

 

[STEVEHOLT]

Never fails.

Or, maybe someone would watch more but whenever they try, the annoying rules make it difficult for them to stick with it.

 

[creatorsgam]

Or, maybe someone would watch more but whenever they try, the annoying rules make it difficult for them to stick with it.

The rules are fine.

 

[orangefog]

The rules are fine.

I agree. But maybe if they made the ball oblong, soccer would be better?

 

[Cowtown]

Just a thought here, has anyone considered how the offside rule constrains scoring, and thus promote penalty shootouts? Would overtimes result in more goals if teams had to, say, take off three or four players in OT? How about taking the goaltenders out and the first team to score twice wins? Just asking.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

Adding another subjective rule (e.g. a dive gets a yellow card) will only make the game more difficult to officiate. That rule is rarely called correctly in hockey.

There is no random timing - the advantage rule is pretty easily understood and adjudicated. Like every sport, human referees officiate differently so slight variation isn't the fault of the rulebook.

You're not a fan of the way soccer is officiated.

I like soccer because of the less complicated rule book (compared to hockey, football, baseball) or sports where rules aren't enforced (e.g. traveling in the NBA).

Advantage is essentially just like delayed penalties in hockey.

 

[creatorsgam]

Just a thought here, has anyone considered how the offside rule constrains scoring, and thus promote penalty shootouts? Would overtimes result in more goals if teams had to, say, take off three or four players in OT? How about taking the goaltenders out and the first team to score twice wins? Just asking.

Without offsides, the sport would be a couple people camping out in front of opposition goals and long balls being played up and over the entire game. It would be awful. No tactics.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

Just a thought here, has anyone considered how the offside rule constrains scoring, and thus promote penalty shootouts? Would overtimes result in more goals if teams had to, say, take off three or four players in OT? How about taking the goaltenders out and the first team to score twice wins? Just asking.

Took me a while to get the offsides rule, but now I do. Soccer goalkeeper is the most unfair position in sports. The goal is 24' x 8'. It's almost impossible to stop a player, 1 v 1.
It also is part of the beautiful game. Goals are to be earned though play, not by cherry picking at the other end of the field.
PKs are what they are: a way to end the game after 2 hours of running.