Firing Coaches - Assessing Coaching Ability

[OrangePA]

The schizophrenic characterizations of Marrone as the greatest coach since Lombardi following the win against WVU and calls for his dismissal following yesterday's loss are really misguided in my judement.

There are many examples of coaches taking a few years to build a program. Frank Beamer took years to develope Va Tech. I just watched a piece on Tom Landry who took six years to win in Dallas. Coach Mac arrived in 1981 and didn't really have any noticeable success until 1985 and even after that season had a losing year that prompted the "Sac Mac Pac."

What we saw last year - an 8-5 season with a bowl win - was rare and remarkable. To discard that kind of success and what it reflects, after a couple of frustrating losses, is not realistic or fair.

The fact is that quick success on the field is rare. More often the work of the succesfful coach occurs behind the scenes.

I think that is what is occurring with the Syracuse program. If you listen to Marrone, he understands very well, every aspect of running a successful program. Every aspect of our program has been studied. Every component has been addressed. Every deficiency recognized. And every public and privatae word carfully considered before utterred.

In less than three years he has improved the talent level on the team. In less than three years Syracuse University football is no longer a punch line. And during that short period of time he has marketed both the program, the University and the community better than anybody I have witnessed during my lifetime.

His success so far has raised expectations - too much so in my view. But that seems to be the way it is with fans - especially Syracuse fans.

Nearly forty years ago George Steinbrenner essentially created the "fire the coach as the solution to poor play" mentality. Talk radio, sports columns and the internet have raised the "fire the coach" discussion to almost an art form. Now casual fans who know nothing about the nuts and bolts of football or any other sport announce who should be fired from week to week. The "decision" to fire somebody comes after a single game or single play these days. I have always found it silly.

Anybody who truly thought that we would make a significant jump this year - in terms of record - was just not being realistic.

Lets remember that on defense we lost the heart of our ability to stop the run - Tribbey, Hogue, Smith, Perkins, Lewis, Suter. We also lost Rob Long - maybe our best player on the field, Delone Carter - the real key to our offense and Ryan B. We also lost Marcus Sales, who made clear in Yankee Stadium, what a factor he can be.

I was really crushed by that awful loss to Rutgers and really disapointed in the poor showing at Louisville. And yesterday I could not believe that we didn't win that game agains UConn - the defensive showing in the second half was god awful.

But with some time to reflect, I feel better. I know we are getting better - that a foundation has been laid - that Marrone knows what has to be done and that he is the kind of person that parents will trust with their kids.

Doug Marrone is the right man for the job and is building what we all want regardless of how some might judge a particular game or particular play.

 

[Dnyr85]

Awesome post! Finally a positive post for the season. I agree wholeheartedly. Thank You.

 

[Orangello]

If you listen to Marrone, he understands very well, every aspect of running a successful program. Every aspect of our program has been studied. Every component has been addressed. Every deficiency is recognized. And every public and privatae word is carfully considered before utterred.

I am beginning to think that DM is a good COO, not a CEO. There is a huge difference. In the former, organizational skills and knowledge of how the organization functions are paramount while with the latter vision, the ability to motivate your employees and execution are the critical skills. There seems to be way too much Edward Deming and not enough Steve Jobs. There is a lot of talk about "quality control" and "evaluation" and yet we are seeing the same mistakes, extreme lack of consistency and lack of execution week in and week out. The team appears to have regressed over the last 2 weeks.
Doug Marrone is the right man for the job and is building what we all want regardless of how some might judge a particular game or particular play.

I think that the folks who are screaming for his head right now are nuts, yet I must admit that I am starting to have my doubts. He inherited an absolutely atrocious situation, there is no question that is true. Turning the coaching staff over every 4 years is also a recipe for diasaster. Yet I can't help but sense that we are not improving every week, we're not getting better and we're not making the incremental improvements that a program on the rise has to make in order to turn the corner and get to the next level. You have to win the games you're supposed to win. Period, full stop. Losing to Rutgers and UConn is cause for concern.

 

[Millhouse]

I think that the folks who are screaming for his head right now are nuts, yet I must admit that I am starting to have my doubts. He inherited an absolutely atrocious situation, there is no question that is true. Turning the coaching staff over every 4 years is also a recipe for diasaster. Yet I can't help but sense that we are not improving every week, we're not getting better and we're not making the incremental improvements that a program on the rise has to make in order to turn the corner and get to the next level. You have to win the games you're supposed to win. Period, full stop. Losing to Rutgers and UConn is cause for concern.

is anyone screaming for his head?

i think some people might suspect that he isn't the guy but even they are taking a wait and see attitude. i'm not even in that group yet

expecting that you'll scream for his head later and actually screaming for it are 2 different things

i do want a college coordinator. let hackett go to the nfl. they love coaches kids there. plus he can choreograph good entrances for the teams

 

[OrangePA]

I think that the folks who are screaming for his head right now are nuts, yet I must admit that I am starting to have my doubts. He inherited an absolutely atrocious situation, there is no question that is true. Turning the coaching staff over every 4 years is also a recipe for diasaster. Yet I can't help but sense that we are not improving every week, we're not getting better and we're not making the incremental improvements that a program on the rise has to make in order to turn the corner and get to the next level. You have to win the games you're supposed to win. Period, full stop. Losing to Rutgers and UConn is cause for concern.

I think Marrone is a great CEO - he has a world view and understands the mechanics of a successful program - he sees micro and macro.

And I for one do see improvement in certain respects from week to week. I really liked some of what I saw on offense yesterday in the second half. I think Dorian Graham is becoming a weapon - one we need badly.

What struck me yesterday , however, is that certain seemingly insignificant talent deficiencies made the difference in the game - KO, KO return coverage, punting and the lack of a true home run threat on offense.

It is really that simple. And it has nothing to do with coaching - it has to do with getting more, better players.

Deciding a coach's ability on the basis of one or two games is the wrong analysis in my opinion.

And concluding that Rutgers has less talent than we do is dead wrong - not even close. I know it is almost unfathomable for many on this board, but the reality is that Rutgers is a more talented team than we are.

And UConn is probably not that far away. UConn is better than we are at punter, kicker, KO and punt return and running QB. And those advantages made the difference in the game.

 

[swish7]

The schizophrenic characterizations of Marrone as the greatest coach since Lombardi following the win against WVU and calls for his dismissal following yesterday's loss are really misguided in my judement.

Apples and Orange Juice. The apples were hooting it up after the WVU win. Last night, I do not recall anybody calling for his head.

There are many examples of coaches taking a few years to build a program. Frank Beamer took years to develope Va Tech. I just watched a piece on Tom Landry who took six years to win in Dallas. Coach Mac arrived in 1981 and didn't really have any noticeable success until 1985 and even after that season had a losing year that prompted the "Sac Mac Pac."

So, does this mean we go 12-0 in year 7? Just because two coaches have similar records in year 3 does not mean the second coach is destined to repeat the first coaches year 7 success. Which, using your point below was "rare and remarkable".

What we saw last year - an 8-5 season with a bowl win - was rare and remarkable.

The fact is that quick success on the field is rare. More often the work of the succesfful coach occurs behind the scenes.

You might have a point with the "behind the scenes" comment. But, save for a Jergen-esque tales of some summertime Marrone luncheon in Rochester, the behind the scenes stuff can neither be proven or disproven as causal to anything. I'm more of what I see on the field kind of guy.

In less than three years Syracuse University football is no longer a punch line.

This I agree with wholeheartedly. But, I worry we are trending towards mediocrity.

Doug Marrone is the right man for the job and is building what we all want regardless of how some might judge a particular game or particular play.

"Is" the right man for the job is strong phrasing. Being from SU, giving speeches to blue hairs, etc, etc, etc, does not make someone the right man for the job. I am not sure if that is the point you are making, but that is the way it comes across in print. Seasons like last years do. Games like Wake do. Rutgers, Louisville, and lordy, UConn do just the opposite.

 

[hoopsupstate]

I like Doug and the direction the program is moving, but my major concern is his inability to bring some game changers to the offense. Three class (really only two) and there still isn't an offensive game changer on the roster. He hasn't brought in one big time offensive player and there isn't one arriving next year. We don't even have an above average running back returning next year. Our best offensive weapon is Provo and he's leaving. We still don't really know who our backup quarterback is. That's scary. If Kinder practiced the wildcat all week to prepare for UCONN, maybe we should bring him in once in a while to change the tempo for our offense.

We all want to think we're back and ready to compete for a Big East Championship. We are not close and we don't like hearing that. We are not as good as we want us to be (or think we are) and we're losing some patience. West Virginia was a big tease and we thought we were back. I think it shows how poorly coached WV really is. Louisville proved that again yesterday. Our OC is very limited in what he can do. He can't trust his quarterback to do anything but role out and hit an occasional slant pattern. Our running back has no explosiveness and gets brought down numerous time with a simple arm tackle. We have no receiver that puts any fear into an opposing defensive coordinator. It takes time and we don't want to wait. I'm as frustrated as everyone else. I keep telling myself are we better off that we were when Doug came? That's a big yes. Are we recruiting better athletes, yes. Are we competing against better schools for athletes, yes. Are we making inroads with top talent, yes, but we're still haven't been able to bring in that one special player that might turn us around.

If I remember correctly, Coach Mac really struggled in years 3 & 4 before he turned it around. The next step is for the university to step up and make the necessary infrastructure changes (facilities) necessary to convince top talent to come to SU. We're close but the next step is the toughest. I believe Doug is the only person capable of doing this. There is noone else out there that's as commited as he is and no one is knocking down the door to coach football at SU. WE have to keep supporting this team and hope the time comes. If Doug doesn't do it, I'm really concerned about where football might go at SU.

 

[kcsu]

My points are simple. Doug needs to hire a seasoned OC as a rebuilding program cant afford to allow Hack to learn on the job. He needs to hire a special teams coach who is also a great recruiter. If he makes those two changes in the off season he will have made significant strides in moving us forward.

 

[RoysRunts]

I remember the Factions on this Board (Though not the names) about who should be the next head Coach. One Camp Skip Holtz 0-4 in the Big East and the other Camp Turner Gill 2-7 0-6 in the Big 12. Go to the USF Board and the KU Board and see what they are saying about these 2 wunderkinds esp Holtz.

 

[ClkWrkOrange]

To discard that kind of success and what it reflects, after a couple of frustrating losses, is not realistic or fair.

It's not a couple of frustrating losses.It's playing like crap 8 out of 9 games this season and seeing no significant improvement from game 1 to game 9.

The "decision" to fire somebody comes after a single game or single play these days.

I dont think anyone is calling for a firing,but if they are,it isn't close to being because of a single game or play.


Anybody who truly thought that we would make a significant jump this year - in terms of record - was just not being realistic.

Wasn't expecting an improvement in Ws and Ls at all.Wasn't expecting to see a significant jump in performance from players seeing their first real action over their more experienced predecessors.Wasn't expecting to see no improvement,and in some cases,regression imo,from players and the team from week 1 to week 10 of the season either.



Doug Marrone is the right man for the job and is building what we all want regardless of how some might judge a particular game or particular play.

I sure hope you're right.I've gone from hopeful to pretty sure to being somewhat doubtful as this season has worn on.Would like nothing more than to feel good about this again.Problem is this isn't about any particular game or play at this point.

 

[orangepassion]

Without getting into the rest of the post, I don't see evidence that marrone is improving the talent. In 3 years, how many guys have we gotten that have multiple BCS offers-I'm not talking about top BCS offers, just a couple of BCS schools. It's still early, but how many guys that marrone recruited are really good BCS players or do you see potential to be? A handful?

 

[OrangePA]

Without getting into the rest of the post, I don't see evidence that marrone is improving the talent. In 3 years, how many guys have we gotten that have multiple BCS offers-I'm not talking about top BCS offers, just a couple of BCS schools. It's still early, but how many guys that marrone recruited are really good BCS players or do you see potential to be? A handful?

Ryan Nassib is leaps and bounds a better player than two years ago. He clearly has limitations and is not the answer in my opinion, but he has become a much better player.

The OL is much better. Who figured that Macky would play as well as he is playing?

Dorian Graham is becoming a weapon. Provo is a better TE - maybe an NFL prospect.

The young LBs are very young but getting better. The same is true for the very young CBs.

Listen to us! We are upset that we are not 7-2 right now! Don't you remember when just winning a game was a major victory? Is 17 wins in three years - as opposed to ten wins in the previous four years - a reflection of talent or coaching or both? It seems to me that it's a reflection of something positive happening.

I'm not happy about yesterday, but my goodness, this program is way beyond where it was just 2.5 years ago. Heck, if RK makes the short FG at the end of the first half we win the game. If we recover that fumble at the end, we win the game. Yesterday came down to one play or maybe two plays.

I am very confident moving forward.

A

 

[OrangePA]

Apples and Orange Juice. The apples were hooting it up after the WVU win. Last night, I do not recall anybody calling for his head.

So, does this mean we go 12-0 in year 7? Just because two coaches have similar records in year 3 does not mean the second coach is destined to repeat the first coaches year 7 success. Which, using your point below was "rare and remarkable".

You might have a point with the "behind the scenes" comment. But, save for a Jergen-esque tales of some summertime Marrone luncheon in Rochester, the behind the scenes stuff can neither be proven or disproven as causal to anything. I'm more of what I see on the field kind of guy.

This I agree with wholeheartedly. But, I worry we are trending towards mediocrity.

"Is" the right man for the job is strong phrasing. Being from SU, giving speeches to blue hairs, etc, etc, etc, does not make someone the right man for the job. I am not sure if that is the point you are making, but that is the way it comes across in print. Seasons like last years do. Games like Wake do. Rutgers, Louisville, and lordy, UConn do just the opposite.

Maybe I missed something but I think IB called for his head.

When I refer to behind the scenes, I'm talking about things like infrastructure development - Marrone understands what must be done and is working very hard to make things happen.

Marrone is the right man for the job. I have no doubt about that. Giving speeches to alums, CNYrs and interacting with HS coaches are small things that make a difference - he is very good at it. Have you ever been to one of his events? I think you would be amazed at how he makes you feel to be a Syracusan - he certainly gives me some pride in the school and area that I have never felt before. And that is what convinces talented young men to come to Syracuse University. Wins follow that kind of micro work - micro work does not follow wins.

Your Coach Mac point is taking something I mentioned way, way too literally. I did not presume to make predictions about records in a certain number of years. The point was and remains that the record on the field does not necessarily reflect the structural work being undertaken by the HC and his program. Nobody say 1987 coming because everybody was looking at the 1986 W-L record.

And finally, we are trending toward mediocrity, we are emerging from sheer devastation passing through mediocrity headed to a solid foundation for very good success.

 

[OrangePA]

My points are simple. Doug needs to hire a seasoned OC as a rebuilding program cant afford to allow Hack to learn on the job. He needs to hire a special teams coach who is also a great recruiter. If he makes those two changes in the off season he will have made significant strides in moving us forward.

The offense did not lose the game yesterday.

There is nothing wrong with Hackett.

 

[dash-30-dash]

Nothing wrong with Hackett? The pass against Rutgers down by the endzone was foolish. Just yesterday, the screen pass in the endzone and the tight end around were also foolish. There is plenty wrong with Hackett.

 

[SaintTristan]

And that is what convinces talented young men to come to Syracuse University.

certainly working so far! How many kids did he convince to come to syracuse last year as opposed to western michigan and tulane?

we get that marone has charmed your pants off. and to be sure thats important. but its not as important as recruiting and beating crap schools, which, in each case, he still cant quite tackle. as you said, doing the small things that make a difference are important - just not as important as beating UCONN and getting recruits that other schools actually want.

 

[GoCuse44]

Nothing wrong with Hackett? The pass against Rutgers down by the endzone was foolish. Just yesterday, the screen pass in the endzone and the tight end around were also foolish. There is plenty wrong with Hackett.

The offense is being run by Marrone. Hacket might be calling the initial play but everything goes through Marrone who can change it if he does not like the call. Lane Kiffin was correct when he said that Hackett was the OC in name only (i.e. Marrone is the HC and OC)

I would like every person on this board to attend one of the three remaining luncheons to hear howMarrone and this staff prepares the team for every game. Marrone discusses everything from how they have reduced players getting sick during the season, how they rate each officating crew, evaluation of the players being redshirted this year, etc. He is very open during the luncheons and you will see a side of Marrone that you don't see when he is with the media.

I agree with OrangePA the future of the SU football program is bright. Marrone is the right guy for the job and he needs 5 years to prov e. I predict that in two years we will once again have a Top 25 team playing football in the Dome.

 

[mantonio]

I think that the folks who are screaming for his head right now are nuts, yet I must admit that I am starting to have my doubts. He inherited an absolutely atrocious situation, there is no question that is true. Turning the coaching staff over every 4 years is also a recipe for diasaster. Yet I can't help but sense that we are not improving every week, we're not getting better and we're not making the incremental improvements that a program on the rise has to make in order to turn the corner and get to the next level. You have to win the games you're supposed to win. Period, full stop. Losing to Rutgers and UConn is cause for concern.

Wrong.

Rutgers still has better players than Syracuse right now, & we still beat them 2 out of the last 3 years. We really dominated them in the stat category for the lone loss, & should have won that one. That is impressive in my book.

We could have won the uconn game, save for that one interception near the end of the contest, so it's not as bad as we feel about it.

 

[orange03]

The schizophrenic characterizations of Marrone as the greatest coach since Lombardi following the win against WVU and calls for his dismissal following yesterday's loss are really misguided in my judement.

There are many examples of coaches taking a few years to build a program. Frank Beamer took years to develope Va Tech. I just watched a piece on Tom Landry who took six years to win in Dallas. Coach Mac arrived in 1981 and didn't really have any noticeable success until 1985 and even after that season had a losing year that prompted the "Sac Mac Pac."

What we saw last year - an 8-5 season with a bowl win - was rare and remarkable. To discard that kind of success and what it reflects, after a couple of frustrating losses, is not realistic or fair.

The fact is that quick success on the field is rare. More often the work of the succesfful coach occurs behind the scenes.

I think that is what is occurring with the Syracuse program. If you listen to Marrone, he understands very well, every aspect of running a successful program. Every aspect of our program has been studied. Every component has been addressed. Every deficiency is recognized. And every public and privatae word is carfully considered before utterred.

In less than three years he has improved the talent level on the team. In less than three years Syracuse University football is no longer a punch line. And during that short period he has marketed both the program, the University and the community better than anybody I have witnessed during my lifetime.

His success so far has raised expectations - too much so in my view. But that seems to be the way it is with fans - especially Syracuse fans.

Nearly forty years ago George Steinbrenner essentially created the "fire the coach as the solution to poor play" mentality. Talk radio, sports columns and the internet have raised the "fire the coach" discussion to almost an art form. Now casual fans who know nothing about the nuts and bolts of football or any other sport announces who should be fired from week to week. The "decision" to fire somebody comes after a single game or single play these days. I have always found it silly.

Anybody who truly thought that we would make a significant jump this year - in terms of record - was just not being realistic.

Lets remember that on defense we lost the heart of our ability to stop the run - Tribbey, Hogue, Smith, Perkins, Lewis, Suter. We also lost Rob Long - maybe our best player on the field and Delone Carter - the real key to our offense - and Ryan B. We also lost Marcus Sales, who made clear in Yankee Stadium, what a factor he can be.

So, I was really crushed by that awful loss to Rutgers and really disapointed in the poor showing at Louisville. And yesterday I could not believe that we didn't win that game agains UConn - the defensive showing in the second half was god awful.

But with some time to reflect, I feel better. I know we are getting better - that a foundation has been laid - that Marrone knows what has to be done and that he is the kind of person that parents will trust with their kids.

Doug Marrone is the right man for the job and is building what we all want regardless of how some might judge a particular game or particular play.

Interesting post and I have a question for you, I guess for the rest of the board as well. Let's assume that we stay in the same mold for the next few years, i.e. struggling to get the 6 wins to become bowl eligible, losing to bad teams, not picking up recruiting steam etc... How long does Doug get to stay as HC? I ask you specifically because I see Doug and Coach P in the later years as being similar and having the same strengths and maybe more importantly the same weaknesses. I'm not in the camp that he should get canned mind you, I'm just not sold on him being the guy to get us over the mediocrity hump.

 

[Cuseman78]

Interesting post and I have a question for you, I guess for the rest of the board as well. Let's assume that we stay in the same mold for the next few years, i.e. struggling to get the 6 wins to become bowl eligible, losing to bad teams, not picking up recruiting steam etc... How long does Doug get to stay as HC? I ask you specifically because I see Doug and Coach P in the later years as being similar and having the same strengths and maybe more importantly the same weaknesses. I'm not in the camp that he should get canned mind you, I'm just not sold on him being the guy to get us over the mediocrity hump.

Expectations should, and will, change as he gets more and more of his players and continues to put his system into place. Right now, 8-5 seasons are not only acceptable, they are sought after. Last year was a nice step and this year he's shooting par based upon most of this board's expectations before the season.

This type of season absolutely WILL NOT play well and will not be acceptable down the line. I think its certainly acceptable at this point in the rebuilding stage. I guess where you and I (and others on the board) differ is that long-term I don't expect 6-6 seasons a few years down the line. I expect 9-3 seasons and occasionally contending for league titles in the ACC. We shall see.

 

[cuseguy]

Expectations should, and will, change as he gets more and more of his players and continues to put his system into place. Right now, 8-5 seasons are not only acceptable, they are sought after. Last year was a nice step and this year he's shooting par based upon most of this board's expectations before the season.

This type of season absolutely WILL NOT play well and will not be acceptable down the line. I think its certainly acceptable at this point in the rebuilding stage. I guess where you and I (and others on the board) differ is that long-term I don't expect 6-6 seasons a few years down the line. I expect 9-3 seasons and occasionally contending for league titles in the ACC. We shall see.

I think this is possible, but we're going to have recruit much better, obviously. Marrone has yet to recruit a class that will be able to compete for ACC titles. It's imperative that SU returns a bowl game this year to build on last year's success.

 

[orange03]

Expectations should, and will, change as he gets more and more of his players and continues to put his system into place. Right now, 8-5 seasons are not only acceptable, they are sought after. Last year was a nice step and this year he's shooting par based upon most of this board's expectations before the season.

This type of season absolutely WILL NOT play well and will not be acceptable down the line. I think its certainly acceptable at this point in the rebuilding stage. I guess where you and I (and others on the board) differ is that long-term I don't expect 6-6 seasons a few years down the line. I expect 9-3 seasons and occasionally contending for league titles in the ACC. We shall see.

I really wish I shared your optimism. I just don't see it. The schedule will be an upgrade once we get in the ACC, will the recruiting be upgraded? DM seems like a really great guy and I would love for him to be the guy, but recruiting aside, his game day coaching skills are lacking at this point too. That's why I proposed the question. If we're in year 5 or 6 and we're still generally a 6 win type of team, do we start to think of making a change?

 

[gocraz4dasu]

I hate fans who overreact to losses/wins. Especially since Marrone is probably the best coach we could want right now realistically. Sure he has his shortcomings but it's not like he's falling on his face with an SEC talented team. Things don't just magically get turned around, it's a process.

Whether people like it or not, the goal of this season was to get to a bowl game and we have 2 more games to do so. I sure hope we do but if we don't, the sky isn't falling. Give the man time.

 

[Deano]

Ryan Nassib is leaps and bounds a better player than two years ago. He clearly has limitations and is not the answer in my opinion, but he has become a much better player.

The OL is much better. Who figured that Macky would play as well as he is playing?

Dorian Graham is becoming a weapon. Provo is a better TE - maybe an NFL prospect.

The young LBs are very young but getting better. The same is true for the very young CBs.

Listen to us! We are upset that we are not 7-2 right now! Don't you remember when just winning a game was a major victory? Is 17 wins in three years - as opposed to ten wins in the previous four years - a reflection of talent or coaching or both? It seems to me that it's a reflection of something positive happening.

I'm not happy about yesterday, but my goodness, this program is way beyond where it was just 2.5 years ago. Heck, if RK makes the short FG at the end of the first half we win the game. If we recover that fumble at the end, we win the game. Yesterday came down to one play or maybe two plays.

I am very confident moving forward.

A

If the defense played like like they did in the 1st half we win that game going away. Just don't understand how the defense did a 180 in the 2nd half.

 

[orange03]

I hate fans who overreact to losses/wins. Especially since Marrone is probably the best coach we could want right now realistically. Sure he has his shortcomings but it's not like he's falling on his face with an SEC talented team. Things don't just magically get turned around, it's a process.

Whether people like it or not, the goal of this season was to get to a bowl game and we have 2 more games to do so. I sure hope we do but if we don't, the sky isn't falling. Give the man time.

But how much time? That was my question.