Firing Coaches - Assessing Coaching Ability

[Shenexon]

I really want Marrone to be successful, partially for the program and partially for him. He's the kind of success story we'd all like to see. I think he's a great PR guy for the program. He talked with me for about 15 minutes in New Orleans and was very sociable and frank about the program both good and bad. It's on him and his ability to manage coaches, players, & fans to create a program that is consistently good. Minor fluctuations are to be expected but game planning & player preparation/motivation should drive program consistency. However, we need to be consistently competitive not consistently unprepared as has been the case far too frequently. I wish him nothing but good luck in that task because I want him to succeed. The games have been painful as a fan but the team has shown that it can play well, e.g. WVU, so I'd like to hope we can see another of that kind of effort to make up for the poor games. Marrone has an opportunity to show if he can take us to the next level but needs some ups to balance the downs. Soon would be good.

 

[orangepassion]

Ryan Nassib is leaps and bounds a better player than two years ago. He clearly has limitations and is not the answer in my opinion, but he has become a much better player.

The OL is much better. Who figured that Macky would play as well as he is playing?

Dorian Graham is becoming a weapon. Provo is a better TE - maybe an NFL prospect.

The young LBs are very young but getting better. The same is true for the very young CBs.

Listen to us! We are upset that we are not 7-2 right now! Don't you remember when just winning a game was a major victory? Is 17 wins in three years - as opposed to ten wins in the previous four years - a reflection of talent or coaching or both? It seems to me that it's a reflection of something positive happening.

I'm not happy about yesterday, but my goodness, this program is way beyond where it was just 2.5 years ago. Heck, if RK makes the short FG at the end of the first half we win the game. If we recover that fumble at the end, we win the game. Yesterday came down to one play or maybe two plays.

I am very confident moving forward.

A

Almost every guy you mentioned was brought in by Grob. Don't get me wrong, I'm still on the Marrone bandwagon and think he definitely merits more time, but he hasn't proven himself as a recruiter or as an innovative offensive mind. We still start most games the same way, which gets us off to slow starts and still have bad special teams. Rutgers probably won 3 games this year on special teams. We have lost 2 games on special teams. I am not sure why he did not address that after last year. The best move Marrone has made is hiring Shafer-Without that move, I don't think we see this improvement. Would love him to be our Bernie Fine (in spite of the poor performance by the D in the 2nd half yesterday) .

 

[orangenirvana]

If you listen to Marrone, he understands very well, every aspect of running a successful program. Every aspect of our program has been studied. Every component has been addressed. Every deficiency is recognized. And every public and privatae word is carfully considered before utterred.

This is a critical first step that simply cannot be taken for granted. Some coaches can't even accomplish this. I think it's very obvious that Marrone has a very good grasp of this program building aspect. Can he execute it? I think so, but we'll see. What I do know is that it will take longer than 2.5 seasons to see the end result.

 

[mantonio]

Interesting post and I have a question for you, I guess for the rest of the board as well. Let's assume that we stay in the same mold for the next few years, i.e. struggling to get the 6 wins to become bowl eligible, losing to bad teams, not picking up recruiting steam etc... How long does Doug get to stay as HC? I ask you specifically because I see Doug and Coach P in the later years as being similar and having the same strengths and maybe more importantly the same weaknesses. I'm not in the camp that he should get canned mind you, I'm just not sold on him being the guy to get us over the mediocrity hump.

Here is the only answer:

If this happens, Dr. Gross must do what he did to Coach P, but with a different plan B...

The only way to make it a successful transition is to secure a proven winner who can recruit well. Until then, you keep the mediocre situation, because it's better than the despair we saw with GROB.

That said, I don't believe we will stay in this middling situation. I believe the University & coach will do what it takes to make the next step into greatness.

We all know the facilities will need to be improved dramatically to lure the best players, & the wealthy alumni base can help in this effort, similar to what Carmelo did for the 'CUSE Basketball program.

We already have a good coach who is well liked by the players parents, & does care about his athletes, even beyond the football field.

This unfounded fear about not reaching beyond mediocrity is extremely premature, considering how recently this team was the worst in BCS College Football(just 3 years ago). It takes longer to convince the better athletes to come to Syracuse when all they saw was disaster & lack of airtime for the 'CUSE throughout their highschool playing time. Couple this with the other schools telling these kids exactly the same thing about Syracuse, & how much better off they would be in another uniform.

NOW, it is starting to turn around...

What can SCHADY tell his potential recruits now? "Uh, we beat them this time..."

What can WVU say? "We really should have beaten Syracuse the past two years..."

What can UCONN say? "How good is the ACC, really?"

Folks, simmer down & get ready to watch the orange wings come out of this cocoon...

 

[Cuseman78]

I really wish I shared your optimism. I just don't see it. The schedule will be an upgrade once we get in the ACC, will the recruiting be upgraded? DM seems like a really great guy and I would love for him to be the guy, but recruiting aside, his game day coaching skills are lacking at this point too. That's why I proposed the question. If we're in year 5 or 6 and we're still generally a 6 win type of team, do we start to think of making a change?

Of course we would start thinking of making a change. But we aren't in year 5 or 6 and we are coming off an 8 win year in year 2 of his tenure. Let me be clear, I'm not arguing that these types of seasons are absolutely acceptable for the rest of eternity.

He has pushed the program forward from our darkest day to the point that we are now a middling program. Where we differ is that I expect him to keep moving this thing forward, you clearly think he has a limited upside. I think its obviously too early to tell who will be right. I don't think its fair to say yet.

 

[Cuseman78]

This is a critical first step that simply cannot be taken for granted. Some coaches can't even accomplish this. I think it's very obvious that Marrone has a very good grasp of this program building aspect. Can he execute it? I think so, but we'll see. What I do know is that it will take longer than 2.5 seasons to see the end result.

Perfectly said -- this is my stance in a nutshell

 

[gocraz4dasu]

But how much time? That was my question.

Considering he's responsible for changing us from the laughing stock of the NCAA to a bowl contender, I'd say a couple more years and he would have to be pretty bad over those next couple to get fired. That said, I don't like firing coaches very quickly because it takes a long time to change things to being good, now there are exceptions like GROB who totally bring down a program need to be fired ASAP but as of right now I have yet to see anything to prove he is bringing the program down. Until it shows that he is bringing us down or holding us back, then I say give him time.

 

[kcsu]

The offense did not lose the game yesterday.

There is nothing wrong with Hackett.

Disagree PA. He is learning on the job and im not sure we can afford that. I like Hack like his energy and smarts and think he will be a good one down the road. If possible i would like to see him get some help. Some more experiance that he can lean on. Do you really think he called a good game yesterday? Are you happy with the development of the O this year? Im not and my primary problem with Hack is that he doesnt allow the team to get into a rythm and is late to make changes. He should have realized very early yesterday that there was zero chance we could run on this team. Instead we wasted a half. Maybe they were ultra conservative because of the horrible field position we had. Lets hope so. Still he is a work in progress and i would like to see us upgrade.

 

[OrangePA]

Disagree PA. He is learning on the job and im not sure we can afford that. I like Hack like his energy and smarts and think he will be a good one down the road. If possible i would like to see him get some help. Some more experiance that he can lean on. Do you really think he called a good game yesterday? Are you happy with the development of the O this year? Im not and my primary problem with Hack is that he doesnt allow the team to get into a rythm and is late to make changes. He should have realized very early yesterday that there was zero chance we could run on this team. Instead we wasted a half. Maybe they were ultra conservative because of the horrible field position we had. Lets hope so. Still he is a work in progress and i would like to see us upgrade.

Just curious. How do you know he is learning on the job?

I presume that that is your guess, right? I don't mean to be flippant, but you haven't sat down with him and reviewed the game plan or watched him break down film or probably talked with him. So you really have no idea how he thinks or what he knows. And, I'm sure you have no idea what adjustments he is making at any given time. And admittedly neither do I. But I do know that a guy who is very knowledgeable - Doug Marrone - interviewed MH and eventually assigned him to handle an important part of his program - one in which he has his life invested. I'm willing to defer to Coach Marrone.

You also have to remember, that Hackett was bred to be a coach - he grew up in the game and was raised by a well-known offensive coach. I know people like Hackett - they learn the game at a much earlier age than a typical coach. So don't be confused by his age or his youthful appearance in assessing his "experience."

In answer to your questions, here you go.

I had no problem with the game plan. The first half was a struggle because Ryan had trouble throwing the ball - receivers were open. I also feel that the use of misdirection was very effective and very appropriate. And, as you have noted we were backed up almost the entire first half making it more difficult for our offense. As opposed to what UConn had to work with in the second half - starting from the 40 0r 45 each drive.

Finally, as Rutgers and Louisville revealed, we do not have the tools to score on a given play - we must grind out yardage and TDs. That is a funciton of our personnel right now. If we had Mike Williams for example, our offense would be more far more dynamic.
We did not lost the game because of the offense. We lost because we couldn't stop DeLeone's spread option in the second half and because our KO coverage, punting and placekicking was not effective.

 

[rrlbees]

The young LBs are very young but getting better.

Heck, if RK makes the short FG at the end of the first half we win the game.

The LB's are regressing IMO. And they aren't completely young. Davis yes, but Spruill is a 2nd year starter and Vaughan is a 4th year player.

If Ross makes that FG, how do we know we win? If everything stayed the same after that, which it may not have, we lose by 4.

 

[Dcuse]

Without getting into the rest of the post, I don't see evidence that marrone is improving the talent. In 3 years, how many guys have we gotten that have multiple BCS offers-I'm not talking about top BCS offers, just a couple of BCS schools. It's still early, but how many guys that marrone recruited are really good BCS players or do you see potential to be? A handful?

Are you serious? How soon people forget that we were battling Bowling Green, Akron,Central Michigan,etc. for pretty much all our recruits during Robinson's and the end of P's reign. You couldn'y be more wrong about the lists of the kids we've gotten the last few years.

 

[orangenirvana]

Im not and my primary problem with Hack is that he doesnt allow the team to get into a rythm and is late to make changes. He should have realized very early yesterday that there was zero chance we could run on this team. Instead we wasted a half. Maybe they were ultra conservative because of the horrible field position we had. Lets hope so. Still he is a work in progress and i would like to see us upgrade.

Seriously? I would hope our offensive coordinator would have more faith in the running game than that. And that isn't exactly Aaron Rodgers behind center. It's possible they were "ultra conservative" because Nassib was doing his best Ricky Vaughn impression.

 

[BORZAK]

The schizophrenic characterizations of Marrone as the greatest coach since Lombardi following the win against WVU and calls for his dismissal following yesterday's loss are really misguided in my judement.

There are many examples of coaches taking a few years to build a program. Frank Beamer took years to develope Va Tech. I just watched a piece on Tom Landry who took six years to win in Dallas. Coach Mac arrived in 1981 and didn't really have any noticeable success until 1985 and even after that season had a losing year that prompted the "Sac Mac Pac."

What we saw last year - an 8-5 season with a bowl win - was rare and remarkable. To discard that kind of success and what it reflects, after a couple of frustrating losses, is not realistic or fair.

The fact is that quick success on the field is rare. More often the work of the succesfful coach occurs behind the scenes.

I think that is what is occurring with the Syracuse program. If you listen to Marrone, he understands very well, every aspect of running a successful program. Every aspect of our program has been studied. Every component has been addressed. Every deficiency is recognized. And every public and privatae word is carfully considered before utterred.

In less than three years he has improved the talent level on the team. In less than three years Syracuse University football is no longer a punch line. And during that short period he has marketed both the program, the University and the community better than anybody I have witnessed during my lifetime.

His success so far has raised expectations - too much so in my view. But that seems to be the way it is with fans - especially Syracuse fans.

Nearly forty years ago George Steinbrenner essentially created the "fire the coach as the solution to poor play" mentality. Talk radio, sports columns and the internet have raised the "fire the coach" discussion to almost an art form. Now casual fans who know nothing about the nuts and bolts of football or any other sport announces who should be fired from week to week. The "decision" to fire somebody comes after a single game or single play these days. I have always found it silly.

Anybody who truly thought that we would make a significant jump this year - in terms of record - was just not being realistic.

Lets remember that on defense we lost the heart of our ability to stop the run - Tribbey, Hogue, Smith, Perkins, Lewis, Suter. We also lost Rob Long - maybe our best player on the field and Delone Carter - the real key to our offense - and Ryan B. We also lost Marcus Sales, who made clear in Yankee Stadium, what a factor he can be.

So, I was really crushed by that awful loss to Rutgers and really disapointed in the poor showing at Louisville. And yesterday I could not believe that we didn't win that game agains UConn - the defensive showing in the second half was god awful.

But with some time to reflect, I feel better. I know we are getting better - that a foundation has been laid - that Marrone knows what has to be done and that he is the kind of person that parents will trust with their kids.

Doug Marrone is the right man for the job and is building what we all want regardless of how some might judge a particular game or particular play.

Thanks, Waiting for the pay side to thin out the whiners!!!

 

[BORZAK]

Maybe I missed something but I think IB called for his head.

When I refer to behind the scenes, I'm talking about things like infrastructure development - Marrone understands what must be done and is working very hard to make things happen.

Marrone is the right man for the job. I have no doubt about that. Giving speeches to alums, CNYrs and interacting with HS coaches are small things that make a difference - he is very good at it. Have you ever been to one of his events? I think you would be amazed at how he makes you feel to be a Syracusan - he certainly gives me some pride in the school and area that I have never felt before. And that is what convinces talented young men to come to Syracuse University. Wins follow that kind of micro work - micro work does not follow wins.

Your Coach Mac point is taking something I mentioned way, way too literally. I did not presume to make predictions about records in a certain number of years. The point was and remains that the record on the field does not necessarily reflect the structural work being undertaken by the HC and his program. Nobody say 1987 coming because everybody was looking at the 1986 W-L record.

And finally, we are trending toward mediocrity, we are emerging from sheer devastation passing through mediocrity headed to a solid foundation for very good success.

Thanks great post

 

[BORZAK]

The offense is being run by Marrone. Hacket might be calling the initial play but everything goes through Marrone who can change it if he does not like the call. Lane Kiffin was correct when he said that Hackett was the OC in name only (i.e. Marrone is the HC and OC)

I would like every person on this board to attend one of the three remaining luncheons to hear howMarrone and this staff prepares the team for every game. Marrone discusses everything from how they have reduced players getting sick during the season, how they rate each officating crew, evaluation of the players being redshirted this year, etc. He is very open during the luncheons and you will see a side of Marrone that you don't see when he is with the media.

I agree with OrangePA the future of the SU football program is bright. Marrone is the right guy for the job and he needs 5 years to prov e. I predict that in two years we will once again have a Top 25 team playing football in the Dome.

I've been to a few your spot on!

 

[orangepassion]

Are you serious? How soon people forget that we were battling Bowling Green, Akron,Central Michigan,etc. for pretty much all our recruits during Robinson's and the end of P's reign. You couldn'y be more wrong about the lists of the kids we've gotten the last few years.

Okay-Show me a list of recruits with multiple BCS offers since Marrone took over. I'm not even talking about good BCS offers-Just any.

 

[CIL]

Okay-Show me a list of recruits with multiple BCS offers since Marrone took over. I'm not even talking about good BCS offers-Just any.

Do we want to count 2009-2010 when Marrone had a few months to recruit or 2010? This is according to Scout and Rivals.

2010

Jerrod West -- Cinci, MD, Stan, Mizzou, NW, Pitt, Vandy, SU
Goggins -- Wash St, Baylor, SU
Cater -- RU, UCONN, SU
Micah Robinson -- Pitt, Cinci, Kansas, L'Ville, SU
Hickey -- BC, Illinois, SU
Lyn -- USF, SU
Alexander -- UCLA, Oregon, SU
Wales -- Duke, Indiana, Iowa
Hay -- ASU, SU
Gulley -- KU, SU
Wilkes -- FSU, L'Ville, Iowa, RU, SU
Beaulieu -- Ark, Neb, Purdue, SC, Tenn, Wake, Wiscy, SU
J.Smith -- Wiscy, SU
Kobena -- UCONN, RU, SU
J. Miller -- Ill, Indiana, Wiscy
M. Davis, RU, SU

2011

Eskridge -- Cinci, SU
Trudo -- Mich, BC, Pitt, WVU, Cinci, Iowa St, SU
Desir -- Kansas, Texas Tech, WVU, SU
Reddish -- BC, UCONN, PSU, MD, RU, UVA, WVU, SU
Mungwa -- Indiana, L'Ville, Stanford, SU
Amen-Moore -- Colorado, Kansas St, UW, NW, SU
Broyld -- L'Ville, RU, SU
Curtis - UK, SU
Hale -- Ark, Vandy, SU
Vigilie -- USF, SU
Lynch -- Vandy, SU
Smallwood -- Cinci, MD, RU, SU
Addazio -- USF, SU

This doesn't show a kid like Crume who had multiple schools like Mich St, Ill, etc go after him once he qualified, or the offers Lynch got when he blew up. Let alone kids like Kinder, Hunt, etc who commit early before they do the whole camp circuit.