Five fouls v Six fouls...

[bpo57]

There have been several cases (Allen of AZ, Fox of UK and Jackson of KU to name just a few) in this tourney where early foul trouble had a major impact on the outcome of the game. Given the quality and consistency of officiating or lack thereof, I'd like to see the college game go to six fouls. It's too easy to pick up a couple of ticky-tack fouls and then you miss half the game. No other sport has that kind of situation. Might also reduce the impact that refs have on the game which at this point is too much.

 

[Halfmooncuse]

When SU couldn't make a foul shot (and that seemed to be the weakness of just about every player we had) I wanted a rule change that gave the team to take free throws or get the ball out of bounds.

 

[RF2044]

There have been several cases (Allen of AZ, Fox of UK and Jackson of KU to name just a few) in this tourney where early foul trouble had a major impact on the outcome of the game. Given the quality and consistency of officiating or lack thereof, I'd like to see the college game go to six fouls. It's too easy to pick up a couple of ticky-tack fouls and then you miss half the game. No other sport has that kind of situation. Might also reduce the impact that refs have on the game which at this point is too much.

No thanks. Too many college teams already take advantage of the way the game is officiated, daring refs to call fouls despite rough play. Giving players another foul would only make things worse IMO.

Other than standardization with the international game [which shouldn't necessarily be a goal of NCAA basketball], I can't really think of a reason why it would be desirable. NBA has six fouls, but the game is also 8 minutes longer.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

No thanks. Too many college teams already take advantage of the way the game is officiated, daring refs to call fouls despite rough play. Giving players another foul would only make things worse IMO.

Other than standardization with the international game [which shouldn't necessarily be a goal of NCAA basketball], I can't really think of a reason why it would be desirable. NBA has six fouls, but the game is also 8 minutes longer.

Agreed across the board.

 

[bpo57]

No thanks. Too many college teams already take advantage of the way the game is officiated, daring refs to call fouls despite rough play. Giving players another foul would only make things worse IMO.

Other than standardization with the international game [which shouldn't necessarily be a goal of NCAA basketball], I can't really think of a reason why it would be desirable. NBA has six fouls, but the game is also 8 minutes longer.

The NBA allows a LOT more physical contact so in that sense it's not really comparable.

Maybe the problem is inconsistent officiating. Some refs call the game super tight and when that happens then five fouls is a joke.

There would be ways to discourage additional fouling. When you exceed certain limits then 3 for 2 etc. I just think right now there is too much opportunity for the refs to decide the game. We don't need that.

 

[RF2044]

The NBA allows a LOT more physical contact so in that sense it's not really comparable.

Maybe the problem is inconsistent officiating. Some refs call the game super tight and when that happens then five fouls is a joke.

There would be ways to discourage additional fouling. When you exceed certain limits then 3 for 2 etc. I just think right now there is too much opportunity for the refs to decide the game. We don't need that.

Don't agree with your first sentence -- it is basketball, so it is absolutely comparable. And that's not the reason why there is a sixth foul in the NBA.

Agree 100% with the rest of your post.

 

[bpo57]

Don't agree with your first sentence -- it is basketball, so it is absolutely comparable. And that's not the reason why there is a sixth foul in the NBA.

Agree 100% with the rest of your post.

If the two games were called the same way then I'd agree. But they're not. It's not at all unusual to watch a college game and see 4-5 guys foul out. That is very rare in an NBA game.

How many times have you watched a college game where a guy quickly picks up two questionable foul calls, particularly on the road? These are calls where no real advantage was gained, nothing flagrant etc. And yet the guy is essentially gone for half the game and then plays the balance in a tuxedo scared not to draw additional fouls. No other sport operates that way where a player is taken off the field of play like that. Has to be a better way.

 

[RF2044]

If the two games were called the same way then I'd agree. But they're not. It's not at all unusual to watch a college game and see 4-5 guys foul out. That is very rare in an NBA game.

How many times have you watched a college game where a guy quickly picks up two questionable foul calls, particularly on the road? These are calls where no real advantage was gained, nothing flagrant etc. And yet the guy is essentially gone for half the game and then plays the balance in a tuxedo scared not to draw additional fouls. No other sport operates that way where a player is taken off the field of play like that. Has to be a better way.

To your last paragraph, not that often -- but it does happen. You're arguing the point of your post above I agree with. College officiating sucks, because the NCAA has no way to hold the refs accountable the way that the NBA did. Remember a few years ago when they started off the season with several points of emphasis to ostensibly clean up the game? That went by the wayside by the end of November and the officials went back to calling the game the way that they had before. So much for that. It will continue to be an endemic problem until the NCAA finds a way to incent the refs to change, whether that's by stick or carrot.

 

[OrangeZeus]

I wouldn't be opposed to something where you get 5 fouls in regulation and then you get a sixth for overtime. But then you run into the issue of whether or not you would allow someone to come back into the game in overtime if they already fouled out in regulation. I'm not sure how that would be dealt with.

 

[bpo57]

To your last paragraph, not that often -- but it does happen. You're arguing the point of your post above I agree with. College officiating sucks, because the NCAA has no way to hold the refs accountable the way that the NBA did. Remember a few years ago when they started off the season with several points of emphasis to ostensibly clean up the game? That went by the wayside by the end of November and the officials went back to calling the game the way that they had before. So much for that. It will continue to be an endemic problem until the NCAA finds a way to incent the refs to change, whether that's by stick or carrot.

Well we agree on the refs. I just have no confidence that their performance will be improved any time soon. I'd rather adjust the personal foul limit to diminish their influence.

Btw I looked at the NBA stats and it really is rare to foul out of an NBA game. There were guys in the top ten for DQs that only fouled out 3 times in 75 games.

 

[dasher]

The NBA allows a LOT more physical contact so in that sense it's not really comparable.

Maybe the problem is inconsistent officiating. Some refs call the game super tight and when that happens then five fouls is a joke.

There would be ways to discourage additional fouling. When you exceed certain limits then 3 for 2 etc. I just think right now there is too much opportunity for the refs to decide the game. We don't need that.

Just heard an nba color guy say that the college game is allowed to be more physical than the NBA game. I hate the idea of 6 fouls. The Big East tried it if you remember and the games were ugly.

 

[skurey]

Couple thoughts

- You see less people foul out in the NBA for a couple reasons. They are better at defending without fouling and the defensive 3 second rule along with better shooters leaves the paint more open which is where most fouls in college occur.

- A player getting two quick fouls isn't the end of the world. It is when the coach decides to sit their best player for 10+ minutes in a do or die game. JB is good at letting the guys play. I think these situations help the better coached teams.

- College refs do stink. Seems like they blow a whistle on every play. But could it be that these players just foul a lot?

- Robot refs in every sport please.

 

[FortyFourCT]

The old big east actually tried this for a season or two and it didn't improve anything.

 

[jncuse]

They don't need to change the rule -- but coaching strategy has to change.

Sitting a player with 2 fouls is a flawed strategy. Let the player keep playing his regular rotational minutesuntil he gets 4 , and then sit him until the last 6 minutes. At the bare minimum there is no reason to sit anybody until he gets his 3rd.

It will result in the player getting more minutes overall over the course of a season and a game.

 

[bpo57]

Just heard an nba color guy say that the college game is allowed to be more physical than the NBA game. I hate the idea of 6 fouls. The Big East tried it if you remember and the games were ugly.

That's crazy. The NBA game is way more physical than the college game. And the refs call it a lot looser as evidenced by the # of guys that ever foul out of a game.

 

[bpo57]

They don't need to change the rule -- but coaching strategy has to change.

Sitting a player with 2 fouls is a flawed strategy. Let the player keep playing his regular rotational minutesuntil he gets 4 , and then sit him until the last 6 minutes. At the bare minimum there is no reason to sit anybody until he gets his 3rd.

It will result in the player getting more minutes overall over the course of a season and a game.

I tend to agree with your point about strategy except the point about the 4th foul. You can't play a guy with three fouls in the first half. One reason why coaches do bench guys with two fouls in the 1st half is they're concerned the opponent will attack that player until he gets the 3rd foul and that the player will play trying to avoid contact.

 

[bpo57]

Anybody want to reconsider their views on the five foul limit now after that monstrosity?

 

[jordoo]

It's sucky officiating that is the issue, not the number of fouls each guy gets. Get better officials, pay them more but also make them accountable.

 

[bpo57]

It's sucky officiating that is the issue, not the number of fouls each guy gets. Get better officials, pay them more but also make them accountable.

Sounds like a good idea. In theory. Good luck with it.