Class of 2020 G Kadary Richmond (NY/Brewster Academy) Portal to St Johns

[CousCuse]

Just to be clear about this Kadary situation. When I saw he had entered the portal I thought, wow, I wish he could come back and play for the Orange. But then I further thought, no he wouldn't want to because there are some old hard feelings or something like that. Now, I really don't have a love for Brent Axe, but i do think he gets some back channel info because of his media connections and when he says there is a chance that Kadary could come back to the Cuse, then I believe that is legit. Is there someone on this board or a Syracuse fan anywhere that wouldn't go completely Gaga if it were announced that he is coming home? This would rock college basketball. Even the UConn people would give respect.

 

[Cuse1055]

Just to be clear about this Kadary situation. When I saw he had entered the portal I thought, wow, I wish he could come back and play for the Orange. But then I further thought, no he wouldn't want to because there are some old hard feelings or something like that. Now, I really don't have a love for Brent Axe, but i do think he gets some back channel info because of his media connections and when he says there is a chance that Kadary could come back to the Cuse, then I believe that is legit. Is there someone on this board or a Syracuse fan anywhere that wouldn't go completely Gaga if it were announced that he is coming home? This would rock college basketball. Even the UConn people would give respect.

I like everything you said, except I don’t give a flying fridge what UConn people think.

 

[shandeezy7]

Yeah that argument has been made a million times.
I’d take Kadary at the point all day everyday, but to each their own.

Yeah I'd take him today, but he was not a very good basketball player his freshman year. There's no denying that. Girard didn't get "gifted" anything. They split time, neither really outshone the other to any great extent and one took his ball and went home at the end of the season.

 

[Melancer46]

I think there is a bit of revisionist history going on here with regards to what Kadary did as a freshman and what opportunity he was given. Joe played 27 mpg (the lowest of his career) while Kadary played 21. He started the year his first 8 games playing 25.1 mpg and averaging 8.1 ppg (44% from the field), 4.3 rpg and 3.8 apg. Not exactly lighting CBB on fire.

He had a 7 game stretch later in the season in conference play where he played 25.6 mpg and averaged 6.6 ppg, 3.4 rpg and 3.9 apg. Again, not exactly a difference maker. Obviously, Kadari was a better defender, but is there really any argument to be made that he should have been playing 32 mpg while Joe played 12 mpg or something like that?

These are roughly on par with what MCW did for us his sophomore year on a per 40 minute basis. Not to mention what he provided defensively (which to be fair, MCW was as good as I've ever seen at the top of the zone, but Kadary was easily our best defender that year). We were quite literally one of the best teams in the country when Kadary was on the floor (better when Kadary and Joe shared the floor vs. Joe being on the bench though).

 

[djcon57]

Yeah I'd take him today, but he was not a very good basketball player his freshman year. There's no denying that. Girard didn't get "gifted" anything. They split time, neither really outshone the other to any great extent and one took his ball and went home at the end of the season.

HOW is this still a take in 2024? HOW? After everything we've seen the past 4 years. This is the still the take? Really?

 

[shandeezy7]

I don’t think he wants to come back here to be told for the 2nd time in 5 years that he isn’t allowed to shoot any threes…..since he was at a 27% clip last year.

Sounds like what a coach might say to him regardless of where he ends up.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

HOW is this still a take in 2024? HOW? After everything we've seen the past 4 years. This is the still the take? Really?

Yeah, by the eye test too, as soon as Kadary was in the defense tightened up significantly and the offense flowed better.

 

[JustPherU]

Yeah I'd take him today, but he was not a very good basketball player his freshman year. There's no denying that. Girard didn't get "gifted" anything. They split time, neither really outshone the other to any great extent and one took his ball and went home at the end of the season.

Is this a joke?

 

[djcon57]

Yeah, by the eye test too, as soon as Kadary was in the defense tightened up significantly and the offense flowed better.

Everyone wanted to take that as shtting on Joe. After watching the last 3 years of both, it just wasn't the case, never was.

Joe wasn't a point guard and Buddy and Joe couldn't defend together. That was it. Kadary was better at Joe at both. Joe was a very good SG as we saw this year at Clemson.

I literally can't believe it's still a talking point for some. I thought the results the last 3 years would have settled it.

 

[RF2044]

Yeah, by the eye test too, as soon as Kadary was in the defense tightened up significantly and the offense flowed better.

This is not objective, admittedly, but my lasting recollection of that year is how we used to get off to poor starts in games.

Seems like we were down 9-2 or 11-4 every game. Then, Kadary would come in and next thing you know it would be 11-10, and we'd be on level footing again.

 

[littlereg]

Everyone wanted to take that as shtting on Joe. After watching the last 3 years of both, it just wasn't the case, never was.

Joe wasn't a point guard and Buddy and Joe couldn't defend together. That was it. Kadary was better at Joe at both. Joe was a very good SG as we saw this year at Clemson.

I literally can't believe it's still a talking point for some. I thought the results the last 3 years would have settled it.

agree entirely. That narrative is beyond ridiculous nauseating at this point.

 

[shandeezy7]

HOW is this still a take in 2024? HOW? After everything we've seen the past 4 years. This is the still the take? Really?

Our offense was at its best when both were on the floor. I liked Kadary as a freshman but I stand by the fact that he was no world beater. He transferred to Seton Hall and saw a decline in basically every advanced statistical measure the next year, despite playing more minutes. His junior year was basically the same as his freshman year (he still only played 27 minutes per game). He didn't really come into his own until last year. Oh, and he never won a damn thing (which probably would have been the case if he stayed at Cuse too).

 

[OttoinGrotto]

This is not objective, admittedly, but my lasting recollection of that year is how we used to get off to poor starts in games.

Seems like we were down 9-2 or 11-4 every game. Then, Kadary would come in and next thing you know it would be 11-10, and we'd be on level footing again.

I remember a game we won that got too close for comfort. Kadary wasn't on the floor to close the game and we kept coughing it up to pressure, and it kept getting tighter. Finally JB called Richmond's number with like a minute left on the clock, he took the inbounds and effortlessly broke the pressure and got the ball up court and we closed out the win.

Seemed like we could have had an easier go with it, but you can't argue with the results of Boeheim's slide rule.

 

[RF2044]

I remember a game we won that got too close for comfort. Kadary wasn't on the floor to close the game and we kept coughing it up to pressure, and it kept getting tighter. Finally JB called Richmond's number with like a minute left on the clock, he took the inbounds and effortlessly broke the pressure and got the ball up court and we closed out the win.

Seemed like we could have had an easier go with it, but you can't argue with the results of Boeheim's slide rule.

That was in the NCAA tournament, against #3 seed West Virginia. We had a 9 point lead with under a minute to go, and nearly blew it. We kept turning the ball over or getting it knocked out of bounds, etc. forcing us to keep attempting to inbound the ball again. They'd get a steal and hit a shot, and then the margin we'd built kept getting smaller and smaller.

After several botched attempts, JB re-inserted Kadary into the game. Ball was inbounded to him right along the left end line. A WVU player went for the steal, but Kadary spun away, and tight-roped the end line as he pushed the ball up the court on the left leaving the defender in the dust.

When the extra defender came over to intercept him, leaving his guy alone in the paint, Kadary had a pass to the open man for a wide-open dunk. Game over.

 

[djcon57]

Our offense was at its best when both were on the floor. I liked Kadari as a freshman but I stand by the fact that he was no world beater. He transferred to Seton Hall and saw a decline in basically every advanced statistical measure the next year, despite playing more minutes. His junior year was basically the same as his freshman year (he still only played 27 minutes per game). He didn't really come into his own until last year. Oh, and he never won a damn thing (which probably would have been the case if he stayed at Cuse too).

Well, I guess he didn't win "anything"...but he went to the tourney and won the NIT.
We went sub .500, basically got JB fired, and haven't gone to the tourney in 3 years.

Which would you prefer?

fwiw, I think if Quincy and Kadary came back in 21 with Buddy, Cole, and a more experienced Jesse with Joe and Jimmy used properly off the bench... that would have been a big time team. Wasn't meant to be though.

 

[CousCuse]

Well, I guess he didn't win "anything"...but he went to the tourney and won the NIT.
We went sub .500, basically got JB fired, and haven't gone to the tourney in 3 years.

Which would you prefer?

fwiw, I think if Quincy and Kadary came back in 21 with Buddy, Cole, and a more experienced Jesse with Joe and Jimmy used properly off the bench... that would have been a big time team. Wasn't meant to be though.

If Jesse didn't break his wrist at BC, that team was ready for a deep run in the NCAAT.

 

[RF2044]

Our offense was at its best when both were on the floor. I liked Kadary as a freshman but I stand by the fact that he was no world beater. He transferred to Seton Hall and saw a decline in basically every advanced statistical measure the next year, despite playing more minutes. His junior year was basically the same as his freshman year (he still only played 27 minutes per game). He didn't really come into his own until last year. Oh, and he never won a damn thing (which probably would have been the case if he stayed at Cuse too).

Normally, I find myself agreeing with your posts on most topics. Surprised to see that we differ so much on this one.

Kadary was far from perfect. But he was also a freshman, not a finished / polished / experienced product at that point. Even so, he was our best lead guard, a great defensive fit for our zone system who generated a lot of steals through anticipation, and a plus rebounder for a backcourt player [which was of benefit, since we were such a generally poor rebounding team].

He was also [and is today] an exceptional ball handler, and terrific passer.

In terms of his developmental opportunities, he wasn't [and isn't] a knock down shooter from three. And his conditioning wasn't top notch.

But it was clear even from that one year that he was the best lead guard on that team -- by far -- and that our top performance throughout that year occurred with the ball in his hands. I believe that's what a lot of posters were frustrated about, when he was told in his end-of-season debrief with JB that he wouldn't start the following year and opted to leave.

I think some posters take it as an anti-Joe sentiment, when at least for me, it isn't. But it is a recognition that Joe was playing out of position and being mis-utilized, and it was hurting the team's ceiling [which was not Joe's fault, that he was being mis-used].

I also think that's why some posters try to rationalize away the significance / impact of Kadary's departure. He was out of shape... he was never going to start anyway... he didn't improve sophomore year... JB was right after all...

In this case -- no, I don't think he was. It was a poor decision that led to the decline we saw over JB's final two seasons. Would have loved to see Kadary at the 1, passing to shooters like Buddy, Joe, and Cole on the wings [and Jimmy the following year]. IMO, that was the impetus for us struggling to be around .500, instead of on the other side of NCAA tournament eligibility.

 

[shandeezy7]

Well, I guess he didn't win "anything"...but he went to the tourney and won the NIT.
We went sub .500, basically got JB fired, and haven't gone to the tourney in 3 years.

Which would you prefer?

fwiw, I think if Quincy and Kadary came back in 21 with Buddy, Cole, and a more experienced Jesse with Joe and Jimmy used properly off the bench... that would have been a big time team. Wasn't meant to be though.

Both are basically the same thing, IMO. And I assume that Cole only came to SU after Kadary left, so I'm not sure that would have been the lineup. My ideal roster that year (assuming Cole didn't come and Kadary and Quincy stayed) would have been Kadary, Joe, Buddy, Quincy and Jesse. I think Jesse, Quincy and Kadary could have made up for Buddy's lack of rebounding at the 3 and that would've been the ideal offensive lineup.

Anyway, sorry for derailing the conversation about Kadary portaling back to Syracuse (which of course is not going to happen).

 

[shandeezy7]

Normally, I find myself agreeing with your posts on most topics. Surprised to see that we differ so much on this one.

Kadary was far from perfect. But he was also a freshman, not a finished / polished / experienced product at that point. Even so, he was our best lead guard, a great defensive fit for our zone system who generated a lot of steals through anticipation, and a plus rebounder for a backcourt player [which was of benefit, since we were such a generally poor rebounding team].

He was also [and is today] an exceptional ball handler, and terrific passer.

In terms of his developmental opportunities, he wasn't [and isn't] a knock down shooter from three. And his conditioning wasn't top notch.

But it was clear even from that one year that he was the best lead guard on that team -- by far -- and that our top performance throughout that year occurred with the ball in his hands. I believe that's what a lot of posters were frustrated about, when he was told in his end-of-season debrief with JB that he wouldn't start the following year and opted to leave.

I think some posters take it as an anti-Joe sentiment, when at least for me, it isn't. But it is a recognition that Joe was playing out of position and being mis-utilized, and it was hurting the team's ceiling [which was not Joe's fault, that he was being mis-used].

I also think that's why some posters try to rationalize away the significance / impact of Kadary's departure. He was out of shape... he was never going to start anyway... he didn't improve sophomore year... JB was right after all...

In this case -- no, I don't think he was. It was a poor decision that led to the decline we saw over JB's final two seasons. Would have loved to see Kadary at the 1, passing to shooters like Buddy, Joe, and Cole on the wings [and Jimmy the following year]. IMO, that was the impetus for us struggling to be around .500, instead of on the other side of NCAA tournament eligibility.

I don't disagree with most of this (was it confirmed that Boeheim really did tell him he wouldn't start the following year, though?). What I take umbrage with is the idea that he wasn't given a fair shot in Syracuse. He played over 25 minutes in 1/3 of the games that season. If he came back the following year and didn't play a larger role (or if he really was told in his "exit interview" by JB that he wouldn't be starting the following year) then that would be more cause for outrage, IMO.

 

[MikeSU02]

I don't disagree with most of this (was it confirmed that Boeheim really did tell him he wouldn't start the following year, though?). What I take umbrage with is the idea that he wasn't given a fair shot in Syracuse. He played over 25 minutes in 1/3 of the games that season. If he came back the following year and didn't play a larger role (or if he really was told in his "exit interview" by JB that he wouldn't be starting the following year) then that would be more cause for outrage, IMO.

He should have started. This wasn't close. Post from 03/30/21:

Kadary Richmond in the transfer portal

If the guy leaves because he's only playing 22 minutes a game instead of 30 minutes a game, it is what it is. I can’t respond to this because you don’t debate. You just spin and defend narratives. You didn’t read the Athletic article. Kadary answered why he left.

syracusefan.com

Also, copy and paste:

Let's just get this over with:

Category: Kadary / Joe
PER: 18.4 / 13.6
TS%: .527 / .484
eFG%: .478 / .453
WS/40: .128 / .078
OBPM: 1.7 / 0.8
DBPM: 4.6 / 1.5
BPM: 6.2 / 2.3

More traditional shooting percentage stats:
FG%: .453 / .357
2PT%: .475 / .389
3PT%: .333 / .333

SHOOTING? OVERALL? DEFENSE? COOKING PANCAKES?

What is the question, here. Honestly, the only thing that Joe is better at him than is being from Glens Falls as far as I can tell.

 

[RF2044]

He should have started. This wasn't close. Post from 03/30/21:

Kadary Richmond in the transfer portal

If the guy leaves because he's only playing 22 minutes a game instead of 30 minutes a game, it is what it is. I can’t respond to this because you don’t debate. You just spin and defend narratives. You didn’t read the Athletic article. Kadary answered why he left.

syracusefan.com

Also, copy and paste:

Let's just get this over with:

Category: Kadary / Joe
PER: 18.4 / 13.6
TS%: .527 / .484
eFG%: .478 / .453
WS/40: .128 / .078
OBPM: 1.7 / 0.8
DBPM: 4.6 / 1.5
BPM: 6.2 / 2.3

More traditional shooting percentage stats:
FG%: .453 / .357
2PT%: .475 / .389
3PT%: .333 / .333

SHOOTING? OVERALL? DEFENSE? COOKING PANCAKES?

What is the question, here. Honestly, the only thing that Joe is better at him than is being from Glens Falls as far as I can tell.

That's just it -- the difference was stark.

And I readily acknowledge that Joe was a streak scorer / shooter who could intermittently get buckets in a hurry when he got infrequently hot.

But while JB was waiting for that potential to actualize between those rare occurrences when it infrequently happened, Kadary was better at everything else. And Joe was a liability as a 1, playing out of position, when he wasn't hitting shots.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

If Kadary is open to this, do whatever it takes. The excitement around the program will be off the charts. The national media will go full blown nuts.

As hyperbolic a post as has ever been posted here.

 

[dasher]

As hyperbolic a post as has ever been posted here.

Well, keep in mind this guys the ACC better take UMass before the Big 10 does post.

 

[Cuse99&01]

That's just it -- the difference was stark.

And I readily acknowledge that Joe was a streak scorer / shooter who could intermittently get buckets in a hurry when he got infrequently hot.

But while JB was waiting for that potential to actualize between those rare occurrences when it infrequently happened, Kadary was better at everything else. And Joe was a liability as a 1, playing out of position, when he wasn't hitting shots.

Kadary's ability to handle/break pressure doesn't show up in those stats either. There were several games where him being on the court more could have helped in this area (some have already mentioned the tourney game vs WVU as a perfect example of this).

The idea that he should have been happy with 21 minutes per game is silly. First that number is inflated to some degree by three games early in the season in which Buddy missed games and Kadary played 35, 31 and 37 minutes. Playing that much also argues against JBs assertion that he didn't play much because he was out of shape and couldn't handle more minutes.

 

[baggerbob]

Kadary's ability to handle/break pressure doesn't show up in those stats either. There were several games where him being on the court more could have helped in this area (some have already mentioned the tourney game vs WVU as a perfect example of this).

The idea that he should have been happy with 21 minutes per game is silly. First that number is inflated to some degree by three games early in the season in which Buddy missed games and Kadary played 35, 31 and 37 minutes. Playing that much also argues against JBs assertion that he didn't play much because he was out of shape and couldn't handle more minutes.

Buddy should have been the small forward on that team.
The one year rent was not a very good player at small forward.
Didn't rebound or score enough to get all the minutes he got.