Georgetown Thoughts

[SWC75]

I also wanted to look at something about Roy William's "secondary break". I've always heard and also seen UNC fast breaking off of rebounds and even made baskets and that they were good at finding a weakness in the opposition defense even if they did get back down court. I wondered what they were doing and if it was something we could do, too.


Observations: I think the 'secondary break' is just a really fast and efficient running of the half court offense immediately after the primary break had been thwarted. Guys move into good positions and a couple of good passes result in quick scores in the half court set against the full defense. The big difference between UNC and SU is the nature and quality of the bigs. Their guys are big, strong, mobile and have superior offensive skills so they can make moves to get around people and score. get them the ball quickly and you get quick scores. We get beanpoles who have trouble catching the ball or doing anything with it if they do. it's the old thing about recruiting for defense or offense. If we were still getting the Rick Jackson or senior Rakeem Chrismas type of player we could play this way but we can't with Chukwu, Sidibe, (maybe someday?) or Dolezaj.

 

[pfister1]

I think the primary difference is we do not allow guys to leak out on offense and instead require our guys to stay home to help with defensive rebounding of the long rebounds that you often get off missed 3s, which is what our defense attempts to force.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

I also wanted to look at something about Roy William's "secondary break". I've always heard and also seen UNC fast breaking off of rebounds and even made baskets and that they were good at finding a weakness in the opposition defense even if they did get back down court. I wondered what they were doing and if it was something we could do, too.


Observations: I think the 'secondary break' is just a really fast and efficient running of the half court offense immediately after the primary break had been thwarted. Guys move into good positions and a couple of good passes result in quick scores in the half court set against the full defense. The big difference between UNC and SU is the nature and quality of the bigs. Their guys are big, strong, mobile and have superior offensive skills so they can make moves to get around people and score. get them the ball quickly and you get quick scores. We get beanpoles who have trouble catching the ball or doing anything with it if they do. it's the old thing about recruiting for defense or offense. If we were still getting the Rick Jackson or senior Rakeem Chrismas type of player we could play this way but we can't with Chukwu, Sidibe, (maybe someday?) or Dolezaj.

If we ever want to be successful at a secondary break, it is incumbent on our guards to stop attacking the rim one on 2 or more. They need to trust that their teammates are filling the lanes/wings for a fast break 3. KICK THAT BALL OUT!!!!

 

[AZOrange]

Great recap General. The only thing crazier than being 1-14 in the half from 3 was how impossibly bad Buddy was in his two minutes of game time. Coaches kid has to be better

 

[Cuseball]

Great recap General. The only thing crazier than being 1-14 in the half from 3 was how impossibly bad Buddy was in his two minutes of game time. Coaches kid has to be better

yep hes not ready at all. Over the next several years as things slow down he will be fine. Right now it hurts the team when he is on the court and he cant be inserted into games that are tight. I get that we need 3 point shooting but for this year those guard sub minutes need to all go to Carey

Cuse!

 

[br801]

yep hes not ready at all. Over the next several years as things slow down he will be fine. Right now it hurts the team when he is on the court and he cant be inserted into games that are tight. I get that we need 3 point shooting but for this year those guard sub minutes need to all go to Carey

Cuse!

One game prior he was 3-7 from deep against Northeastern. There may be times his shooting will be an asset this season, and he will get some run, as he possesses a completely different skill set than any of SU's other guards. And it won't be about JB giving his son minutes that he doesn't deserve.

 

[Cusefan0307]

I always laugh about fans saying who should play when we have zero idea what goes on in practice.

 

[General20]

The point about our only being able to run if the other team made mistakes. I decided to look at two things. The first was the famous Syracuse "Dunk Tape" of action from the late 80's, when we were at the peak of our talent. Its been posted many times before but I think every Syracuse fan should watch it at least once a season to remember how we played back in the day:


Observations: Firstly, teams were clearly not as focused at "getting back" as they are now. Saturday, Georgetown typically had four guys at least at mid-court when we made our outlet passes. But our passes were also different with many "home runs" down the length of the court and a lot of alley oops. the guy who put the ball in typically received the ball very near the basket and the passer was typically away from the basket, sometimes far away. These days a fast break often involves one guy trying to thread his way through the defense to score himself. he might dish the ball once but to another guy far enough away that eh still has to drive to the basket. We also shared the ball more in the old days. If a guy got the ball, he first looked to pass and dribbled the ball only if no one was open - and even then he was still looking for someone to get open. getting back to prevent the fast break involves a mentality that you are going to do it but I think running does to. those later 80's teams viewed every possession as an opportunity to beat the other team downcourt and that's why they did it so often. They weren't just hoping the other team would make a mistake.

Great post! I have often thought that when people pine for the good old days of basketball, they are actually just pining for worse defense (because the defense in the 80's and even 90's was horrifically bad across the board).

 

[Col. Bleep]

Nice analysis.

But I do believe in rivalries.
They're natural.
And I LOOOAAAATHE G-town!
It's the only game all year - other than the NCAA tournament - that I get emotional about.

Duke?
Feh...everyone thinks they're Duke's rival and that's kind of pathetic because only UNC is.

Syracuse-G-town is one of the great historical rivalries in college basketball, if not all of sports.
Great games, great history, great rivalry.

Keep the series going.
It matters.
It's who we are.

Keep hate alive!

GO ORANGE!

 

[rrlbees]

Great post! I have often thought that when people pine for the good old days of basketball, they are actually just pining for worse defense (because the defense in the 80's and even 90's was horrifically bad across the board).

Worse defense and superior rebounding. People long for the days of Stevie Thompson leaking out as a shot went up knowing that Coleman or Seikaly would get the rebound. We don’t dominate the boards like we used to so your “normal” fast breaks are rare. Now, like you’ve said, it’s off turnovers or steals with the occasional long rebound.

I’m sure JB isn’t the only coach who chews out the guard that doesn’t rotate back to prevent a run out.

We pretty much send 4 if not 5 guys to the defensive boards. Frank did a nice job last year rebounding for a PG and Jalen does a real good job with it. If we want to run more, we need to get bigs that are real glass cleaners who know how to rebound, pivot and make an out let pass to the guard(s) racing down court.

 

[General20]

I'm just curious if the OP thinks that Boeheim wants his centers essentially playing man to man and chase any bigs who can shoot out to the three point line. Seems counterintuitive.

I certainly don't think he wants that to happen as a general rule, but I do think it was purposful in this particular situation.

There are a couple factors at play here ...

First, Govan, shot well from the low block, the mid range, and the 3 point line.

Second, he's 6'11, and seemed REALLY comfortable shooting with a hand in his face at any distance.

Third, Georgetown doesn't have another great scorer we had to worry about.

We were best on D in the second half when Chukwu was following Govan all around and our zone almost looked more like a box and 1. It hurt us on the boards and made a couple Georgetown guys look better than they were, but that was the trade off Boeheim chose, and it seemed to work because forcing Georgetown's lesser players to make plays lead to a lot of turnovers - and easy points for us.

Late in the game, after Chukwu fouled out, Govan hit a HUGE 3 (I think SU was up 2 at the time and there was a minute and change left) with Battle right in his face. He shot it right over the top of Battle, like he wasn't even there. I think this is what Boeheim was trying to avoid by having Chukwu get in his face and stay there.

I doubt you'll see this strategy in any other game this season which is why I mentioned Govan being a unique player (which started yet another Duke conversation for some weird reason).

 

[General20]

Worse defense and superior rebounding. People long for the days of Stevie Thompson leaking out as a shot went up knowing that Coleman or Seikaly would get the rebound. We don’t dominate the boards like we used to so your “normal” fast breaks are rare. Now, like you’ve said, it’s off turnovers or steals with the occasional long rebound.

I’m sure JB isn’t the only coach who chews out the guard that doesn’t rotate back to prevent a run out.

We pretty much send 4 if not 5 guys to the defensive boards. Frank did a nice job last year rebounding for a PG and Jalen does a real good job with it. If we want to run more, we need to get bigs that are real glass cleaners who know how to rebound, pivot and make an out let pass to the guard(s) racing down court.

We will probably never have anybody as good on the boards as Coleman was, that's for sure. He's got to be in the conversation for best rebounder in college basketball history. He had it all: tall, high jumper, great hands, good instincts for where the ball would come down, and a mean streak.

 

[rrlbees]

We will probably never have anybody as good on the boards as Coleman was, that's for sure. He's got to be in the conversation for best rebounder in college basketball history. He had it all: tall, high jumper, great hands, good instincts for where the ball would come down, and a mean streak.

That’s why I used him as an example.

But even after that there were years we were dominant on the boards. I seem to remember us being a top 10 rebounding team a few times.

 

[General20]

Great recap General. The only thing crazier than being 1-14 in the half from 3 was how impossibly bad Buddy was in his two minutes of game time. Coaches kid has to be better

I agree with you. I was actually hoping to see Buddy early, because that game was made for him with all the open 3's Georgetown was giving up. But when you can't do the basics like cover your man or catch the ball, you don't get to stay in the game and launch 3's.

Right now the game is way too fast for him. I think starting early in the year might have actually hurt him, like when you play a rookie QB too early and you have a bad offensive line. Its disappointing, but he's far from the first shooter who needs some adjustment time.

 

[shandeezy7]

If we ever want to be successful at a secondary break, it is incumbent on our guards to stop attacking the rim one on 2 or more. They need to trust that their teammates are filling the lanes/wings for a fast break 3. KICK THAT BALL OUT!!!!

A frequent frustration with Frank (and Tyus) on the break. The thought of passing almost never enters their minds on the fast break. Take for example the play where Frank picked up a charge on the break. It was a 4 on 2 and he had Oshae coming behind him on his left for what would have been an easy two if he was more patient and had more court awareness.

 

[manleyzoo]

I also wanted to look at something about Roy William's "secondary break". I've always heard and also seen UNC fast breaking off of rebounds and even made baskets and that they were good at finding a weakness in the opposition defense even if they did get back down court. I wondered what they were doing and if it was something we could do, too.


Observations: I think the 'secondary break' is just a really fast and efficient running of the half court offense immediately after the primary break had been thwarted. Guys move into good positions and a couple of good passes result in quick scores in the half court set against the full defense. The big difference between UNC and SU is the nature and quality of the bigs. Their guys are big, strong, mobile and have superior offensive skills so they can make moves to get around people and score. get them the ball quickly and you get quick scores. We get beanpoles who have trouble catching the ball or doing anything with it if they do. it's the old thing about recruiting for defense or offense. If we were still getting the Rick Jackson or senior Rakeem Chrismas type of player we could play this way but we can't with Chukwu, Sidibe, (maybe someday?) or Dolezaj.

The definition of the push-the-ball up court style on every play was Loyola Marymount of 1989/90. No college team I can recall has ever played like that. They ragged the ball on defense but that was about all they did. Their approach was to run the opposition to death. Sure was fun to watch. 1990 NCAA Basketball Second Round - Loyola Marymount vs Michigan

 

[SWC75]

The definition of the push-the-ball up court style on every play was Loyola Marymount of 1989/90. No college team I can recall has ever played like that. They ragged the ball on defense but that was about all they did. Their approach was to run the opposition to death. Sure was fun to watch. 1990 NCAA Basketball Second Round - Loyola Marymount vs Michigan

You wonder why they stopped.

 

[manleyzoo]

You wonder why they stopped.

Hank Gathers died, Bo Kimble graduated and Westhead went to the NBA.

 

[rrlbees]

A frequent frustration with Frank (and Tyus) on the break. The thought of passing almost never enters their minds on the fast break. Take for example the play where Frank picked up a charge on the break. It was a 4 on 2 and he had Oshae coming behind him on his left for what would have been an easy two if he was more patient and had more court awareness.

Or if Brissett was hustling

 

[shandeezy7]

Or if Brissett was hustling

I just rewatched it and that wasn't even close to the problem on that play. The PG needs to have better court awareness on the break than that. A simple drop pass to the trailing Brissett and that's an easy bucket. Our guards are just not good in those situations, and I guess at this point I shouldn't expect them to get any better at it.

 

[SWC75]

Hank Gathers died, Bo Kimble graduated and Westhead went to the NBA.

Gahters was already dead at the time of the Michigan game.

Do you change the way you play just because the players or even the coach changes? If Dino Babers leaves, will we go back to the near-side option? How many times have you thought of Loyola-Marymount since then?

 

[bballbeadle]

Zion will be a nightmare for us. Hes a nightmare for anyone playing them. I do think our defense (the good one when we show up and play the right way) has a chance to give them a hard time compared to most teams they will play this year. It's going to interesting. The way I see it the game can go 3 ways...we win a close one, they win a close one or they smack the crap out of us.

We can’t play them scared. IMO, it’s our only hope. Zion Williamson has not been called for ONE offensive foul yet this season. So (Marek) there’s little hope along those lines, brave as you might be.

Why are we discussing Duke in a Georgetown thread? Rivalries, I guess. They are just sucking up all the oxygen in the room.

 

[manleyzoo]

Gahters was already dead at the time of the Michigan game.

Do you change the way you play just because the players or even the coach changes? If Dino Babers leaves, will we go back to the near-side option? How many times have you thought of Loyola-Marymount since then?

Yes I know Gathers died on court tragically just before the end of that season. He was a potential lottery pick, player of the year, he was flat out great and with him they very well could have gone to the final 4 and maybe even won it. As it was without him they lost in the final 8. Yes, you change the way you play if the coach changes. College players are akin to chess (or checkers probably more accurately) in that they play the way the coach dictates. And yes, if Babers leaves so do his schemes. Sorry on the LMU question, I live in NoCal, they come up here every year to play Santa Clara so I do think about them at least twice a year, once for hoop and another for baseball.

 

[sugrad68]

One game prior he was 3-7 from deep against Northeastern. There may be times his shooting will be an asset this season, and he will get some run, as he possesses a completely different skill set than any of SU's other guards. And it won't be about JB giving his son minutes that he doesn't deserve.

And if you take away that Northeastern game Boeheim is 3-22, 13.6%, from deep. I think his season against quality opponents will go much like it did against Georgetown -- he'll get into games as a last resort when no one else is hitting shots and if he does not supply instant offense, much as Malinowski did for Georgetown, he will be quickly on the bench.

 

[SWC75]

Yes I know Gathers died on court tragically just before the end of that season. He was a potential lottery pick, player of the year, he was flat out great and with him they very well could have gone to the final 4 and maybe even won it. As it was without him they lost in the final 8. Yes, you change the way you play if the coach changes. College players are akin to chess (or checkers probably more accurately) in that they play the way the coach dictates. And yes, if Babers leaves so do his schemes. Sorry on the LMU question, I live in NoCal, they come up here every year to play Santa Clara so I do think about them at least twice a year, once for hoop and another for baseball.

You think about them because you play them twice a year. I'm talking about the rest of the nation thinking about them as they did then.

If Babers leaves we will do everything we can to keep his schemes here as Oklahoma did when they replaced Bob Stoops with Lincoln Riley.

Here is Loyola's historical record: Loyola Marymount Lions Index | College Basketball at Sports-Reference.com
Did returning to 'normal' basketball do them any good?