Great that we won, BUT!!!!!

[br801]

It's funny--I didn't feel that we were ever not in control of the game last night. We weren't perfect by any stretch--there are always areas that can be improved--but Cal never took over the momentum, even with the game so close to its campus. That is a testament to our players' ability to make the plays (on both ends of the floor) that were needed when they needed to do so.

Good to run across a voice of reason.

Despite the hand-wringing in this thread and others. I thought last night's win was beautiful. SU's defense controlled the game from the start, and at no point did Cal appear comfortable on offense. Kudos to the entire team for 40 minutes of excellent defensive work. MCW and Triche were disruptive at the top of zone throughout, and Cal's perimeter players rarely got a decent look. When Cal was able to enter the ball into the deep post, our big men and wings made some tremendous plays to deny shots. Additionally, I have to believe some of Cal's unforced turnovers were a product of "hearing footsteps." To accomplish all of this in an arena where 90% of the crowd was probably against them is a great achievement.

 

[rstone7727]

Perhaps, as you contend, FT shooting is vastly over rated. But... When the game is on the line and we are up by 2 pts. with 11 seconds left and MCW steps up to the line with a one and one, how over rated is it to make both of those throws from the charity stripe?

Point being, in many crucial situations a teams ability to make free throws will likely determine the statistical probability of winning the game.

This is true, but my point was, from a practice standpoint, other aspects of the game are more important and should be practiced more. Someone that has been to practices wonders why JB doesn't make FT shooting a priority. If you practice fundamentals ie, ball handling, passing, defense etc, you will not be in a position to have to win a game with a FT.

 

[Flacusian]

Good to run across a voice of reason.

Despite the hand-wringing in this thread and others. I thought last night's win was beautiful. SU's defense controlled the game from the start, and at no point did Cal appear comfortable on offense. Kudos to the entire team for 40 minutes of excellent defensive work. MCW and Triche were disruptive at the top of zone throughout, and Cal's perimeter players rarely got a decent look. When Cal was able to enter the ball into the deep post, our big men and wings made some tremendous plays to deny shots. Additionally, I have to believe some of Cal's unforced turnovers were a product of "hearig footsteps." To accomplish all of this in an arena where 90% of the crowd was probably against them is a great achievement.

Coach Orange is spot on with praising the defensive performance of the team. There can be no mistake that the game was won on account of a suffocating, ever morphing, one of a kind 3/2 zone defense. At the same time, much of the hand wringing you allude to is resultant from the perception that despite the incredible defensive performances of the 1st two tourney games, offensively we are going to be required to play better if we are going to continue this run.

Clearly, the team has demonstrated that they can play better offensively and against Temple or Indiana it will be imperative that they do so.

 

[Flacusian]

This is true, but my point was, from a practice standpoint, other aspects of the game are more important and should be practiced more. Someone that has been to practices wonders why JB doesn't make FT shooting a priority. If you practice fundamentals ie, ball handling, passing, defense etc, you will not be in a position to have to win a game with a FT.

Rstone, you make a great point. It's true that the superior aspect of our defense has been the primary determinant in getting us in the position to compete, and win games.

 

[VaBeachOrFan]

Ugly game? Yes. Very "un-SU-like"? Yes. It seemed as if they took a page out of Buzz Williams' book -- draw fouls early and often. Marquette made 10 more FT points than Butler and won by 2; SU made 14 more FT points and won by 6. Buzz has a point, and it was a good strategy by JB to push 'Cuse's height advantage and make up for the team's otherwise poor shooting. Besides, it kept control of the game and never let Cal and the audience get more than a few seconds' reason for confidence, which is an excellent plan when you're playing a road game.

Also, don't forget that there's always an "ugly win" among the 6-0 record of a NC team. Don't fret, pessimists, all that matters at tournament time is that SU plays slightly better than its opponent, which they did. On to Washington!-VBOF

 

[br801]

Coach Orange is spot on with praising the defensive performance of the team. There can be no mistake that the game was won on account of a suffocating, ever morphing, one of a kind 3/2 zone defenses. At the same time, much of the hand wringing you allude to is resultant from the perception that despite the incredible defensive performances of the 1st two tourney games, offensively we are going to be required to play better if we are going to continue this run.

Clearly, the team has demonstrated that they can play better offensively and against Temple or Indiana it will be imperative that they do so.

If the bolded statement were not true, I'd be worried. But this team has proven it can win in tough spots in many ways, with major contributions coming from a variety of players. If I'm an opposing coach, I'm not thrilled at the prospect of running into Syracuse in this tournament.

 

[kcsu]

Give me a break. You honestly--honestly--don't think that the team focuses on free throws in practice?

This board often seems to focus on the wrong things. I'm much more concerned about how solid free throw shooters [statistically] like MCW and Triche--our primary ball handlers--seem to miss them in every important situation. Or how CJ, who once was shooting close to 85% from the stripe has shot 56% the last four or five games. We're a team that struggles to score in half court games, and can't afford to lose freebies when those opportunities arise.

Dont get me wrong they practice free throw shooting. They do not focus on it. How many practices have you been to? Insanity is defined as doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. What im saying is that JB should consider a different approach to practicing free throws.

 

[kingtidge]

Glass half full...

The way we played yesterday, we would have lost in BE play against more than half the teams in the league...

The Good news... Cal was baffled by the zone and our D can win games against teams unfamiliar with it (even if our O is putrid... as yesterday).

More Good News: Our team is streaky and when we throw a stinker out there, we've lost in recent weeks... and we've shown we can bounce back from a bad performance...

We threw a stinker on O and won... Let's hope it's the sub-par performance we see on O...

One thing is is for sure, the competition won't be getting any easier...

 

[pfister1]

A point about the focus on FT shooting in practice. Over the years the amount of the time that coaches can spend with the players in practice has declined considerably. The date practices can start has gotten later, game schedules have expanded and there have been greater limitations placed on the maximum number of hours that can be spent in practice and what if anything can be done as a team outside of the regular season.

I say this because practicing FTs is one of the few things, along with elements of training (weight lifting, cardio etc.) that can easily be done outside of the team setting and outside of the coaches watchful eyes.

So when you say JB doesn't emphasize it because he doesn't spend enough time on it in practice based on your observations of practice I wonder if those observations paint an accurate picture, or whether they just don't place the same emphasis on using the allowable practice time as your team did. Would it be unreasonable for the coaches to place some of the responsibility for FTs on the players to have them shooting outside of regular practice times so as not to take away from time that may need to be used in team drills as opposed to individual drills?? I don't know just suggesting it could be a possibility.

I played Division I college athletics about 25 years ago. The college athletics landscape has changed so dramatically in the intervening time that I would hesitate to compare what is done today to what was done in any practices that I participated in or that were run by my coaches.

Our free throw shooting really has been relatively decent this season. Admittedly we've had several notable lapses, and BT's and MCW's seeming backsliding on their shooting is perplexing, but I am not sure the explanation is that they don't place enough importance on it.

 

[RF2044]

Dont get me wrong they practice free throw shooting. They do not focus on it. How many practices have you been to? Insanity is defined as doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. What im saying is that JB should consider a different approach to practicing free throws.

Hundreds. Literally.

 

[AlaskaSU]

Cal was intimidated by our D and for the most part played very cautiosly until the last minute or 2 when they were desperate. They turned down many shot opportunities. Some teams milk the clock on purpose. They were not doing that. They could not get the uncontested shots they wanted and probably needed in order to be competitve. Our D was probably the best they have seen. This game will have little bearing on our next. Indiana or Temple, will take shots that Cal turned down and they might make a decent percentage of them. We will probably need more offense for the next game.

 

[djdan]

I seem to remember SWC putting his amazing research ability toward debunking a number of the Syracuse free throw shooting myths that the more irrational posts here seem to espouse. Maybe he'll see this and point us toward it.

 

[Townie72]

I'm going completely off-topic here and I've already made my contribution to this thread 5 or 6 posts above but I think you've misinterpreted the context of this famous quote. The reference to "cake" was not a plentiful, decadent alternative to starvation. Cake was actually the burned, charred, generally inedible scraps and crusts that were considered refuse and discarded. So the quote, in today's terms, would better translate to, "Well, let them eat stuff". To use this quote as a retort to the whiners about our team's FT shooting or JB's philosophy about FT shooting is essentially saying, "You can't succeed? Well then sucks to be you, suffer in your demise." But then again, maybe that's what you were going for?

That's certainly not the historical version of this quote that I was taught. This quote has always been used to demonstrate someone who is oblivious.

The complaint about SU's foul shooting is valid, but it goes back for decades. To me, to suggest that 1.) JB isn't aware of it and 2.) That it can be corrected by more practicing of it seems to me to demonstrate someone who is oblivious. Hence the connection.

You need top supply me with an authoritative source besides yourself that the "cake" MA was referring to was "scraps". I'm not sure I believe that.

 

[AlaskaSU]

That's certainly not the historical version of this quote that I was taught. This quote has always been used to demonstrate someone who is oblivious.

The complaint about SU's foul shooting is valid, but it goes back for decades. To me, to suggest that 1.) JB isn't aware of it and 2.) That it can be corrected by more practicing of it seems to me to demonstrate someone who is oblivious. Hence the connection.

You need top supply me with an authoritative source besides yourself that the "cake" MA was referring to was "scraps". I'm not sure I believe that.

Just on the face of it, I would never believe that the head of State, well aware of discontent, given the state of the French economy, would ever tell the poor to -- off (eat cake using our contemporary meaning of cake). Royalty was well aware that heads could be severed. With the exception of the Czars, they were not as irresponsible as we imagine, nor as powerful as 20th century tyrants. It makes a nice story, but it most likely is just a 200 year old urban legend. Never-the-less, it is valid to use it as an example since the quote (misquote) is so well known. The real crazies were the Jacobian socialists that forcibly redistributed wealth and property. Edmund Burke, a big supporter of the American Revolution, called the French Revolution a disaster from the get go. Thomas Jefferson supported the French crazies. For more info, read about the Genet Affair in Paul Johnson's biography of Washington. If you go to Wikipedia, Jefferson's idiocy is whitewashed. As a result of the Affair, Washington forced his resignation as Sec. of State.

 

[kcsu]

A point about the focus on FT shooting in practice. Over the years the amount of the time that coaches can spend with the players in practice has declined considerably. The date practices can start has gotten later, game schedules have expanded and there have been greater limitations placed on the maximum number of hours that can be spent in practice and what if anything can be done as a team outside of the regular season.

I say this because practicing FTs is one of the few things, along with elements of training (weight lifting, cardio etc.) that can easily be done outside of the team setting and outside of the coaches watchful eyes. Very good point i did not think about this thx

So when you say JB doesn't emphasize it because he doesn't spend enough time on it in practice based on your observations of practice I wonder if those observations paint an accurate picture, or whether they just don't place the same emphasis on using the allowable practice time as your team did. Would it be unreasonable for the coaches to place some of the responsibility for FTs on the players to have them shooting outside of regular practice times so as not to take away from time that may need to be used in team drills as opposed to individual drills?? I don't know just suggesting it could be a possibility.

I played Division I college athletics about 25 years ago. The college athletics landscape has changed so dramatically in the intervening time that I would hesitate to compare what is done today to what was done in any practices that I participated in or that were run by my coaches.

Our free throw shooting really has been relatively decent this season. Admittedly we've had several notable lapses, and BT's and MCW's seeming backsliding on their shooting is perplexing, but I am not sure the explanation is that they don't place enough importance on it.

 

[kcsu]

Hundreds. Literally.

Then you know what im saying is true

 

[RF2044]

Then you know what im saying is true

Not only was your original perspective completely inaccurate, but you continue to bark up the wrong tree.

Quit while your ahead.

 

[kcsu]

Your perspective couldn't be more inaccurate.

Quit while your ahead.

Im not sure what you are watching but if you have been to 100's of practices our definition of focus are vastly different.

 

[RF2044]

Im not sure what you are watching but if you have been to 100's of practices our definition of focus are vastly different.

Okay, fine. I don't know what the hell you're watching, but free throws have been a concerted focus of every practice I've watched for decades. Yes, a focus. I see the team not only devote time to shooting them, but also work drills into play where there is some aspect of pressure on the players to convert, or the team gets penalties [such as sprints]. Some teams shoot free throws better than others. Some players shoot them better than others.

But if your opinion, given all of your ostensible experience watching them practice, is that they don't emphasize free throw shooting you are wrong. And no offense, I guarantee that I have seen 1000X the amount of practice time you have, and I have a different opinion. Teams with poor free throw shooters [shockingly] shoot them poorly. teams with better free throw shooters shoot them better. But to imply that the end of game misses from this year's team is anything more than lack of concentration--as opposed to lack of focus from the coaches--is absurd.

 

[baggerbob]

FT shooting is vastly over rated. Of the top 50 FT shooting teams in the country only 5 are still alive in the tournament. Montana was fifth in the country. Other aspects of the game are much more important than FT shooting thus JB's lower priority. Yet, people will always point to Derrick Coleman's missed FT to justify their complaints. You could make the argument that if we spent more time practicing the zone, Keith Smart would have been covered.

We played mostly man to man in those days. Just before DC missed his free throw Howard missed the front end of a 1-1, so 2 more points we didn't get and he was a good free throw shooter.

 

[bevosu]

free throws. This is what Bilas said last week during one of ESPN's bracket shows...

Bilas talking about New Mexico said this...Most efficient way to score points...getting to the free throw line.

 

[kcsu]

Okay, fine. I don't know what the hell you're watching, but free throws have been a concerted focus of every practice I've watched for decades. Yes, a focus. I see the team not only devote time to shooting them, but also work drills into play where there is some aspect of pressure on the players to convert, or the team gets penalties [such as sprints]. Some teams shoot free throws better than others. Some players shoot them better than others.

But if your opinion, given all of your ostensible experience watching them practice, is that they don't emphasize free throw shooting you are wrong. And no offense, I guarantee that I have seen 1000X the amount of practice time you have, and I have a different opinion. Teams with poor free throw shooters [shockingly] shoot them poorly. teams with better free throw shooters shoot them better. But to imply that the end of game misses from this year's team is anything more than lack of concentration--as opposed to lack of focus from the coaches--is absurd.

Fine here we go. I was recruited by JB would have been in his first class but they wanted me to attend a prep school to gain strength and i went to another school. I have also been to many practices and know JB pretty well having been around him and the staff for over 30 years. Yes they do but pressure on the kids and yes they do run sprints sometimes from the practices i have seen. My point is different than yours. My point if you read my post is that doing the same thing over and over again has not worked. If you know hoops and im sure you do you realize that there is much more that can be done than what has been done. Focus means concentration, Focus means making it a priority not only during practice but during games. JB will pull a kid if he doesnt play the zone properly. JB needs to "pull" a kids string when they miss free throws. I ended up playing for a coach who is in the HOF. Whenver it was close and if we were off from the line a TO would be called and coach would make it a point to emphais the keys. 1 he always told us to gather ourselves especially at the end of game when we were gassed. 2 he reminded us to feel comfortable to the point that he told us to not be afraid to step back if we approached the line and didnt feel it. 3 back of the rim "Dont be short" still rings in my ears 4 you guys got this knock em down or some other words to build confidence. So i understand and appreciate what you are saying but having played the game i also know that there is and can be a different approach.

 

[mantonio]

DO you people even realize what we have laid out for us in the next two weeks?

There is not ONE team who can deal with our defense until a possible matchup with Louisville in the Title game, IF they can get there.

We have been SMOTHERING teams like I have never seen all season, & I don't expect that to change on Thursday against Indy. I predict the Hosers will struggle to get past 60 points on this defense, & I think we can hang 70 plus on them.

We are also due for a better shooting game, including at the charity stripe. Remember, Keita & the rest were clutch at the free throw line in the BET when we won.

You will see a different team on offense going forward, but the defense will be the same nasty GREAT WALL OF CUSE...

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

JB does not place an emphasis on it. If we worked half as hard on foul shots as we do on playing the zone we would be a better shooting team. It is focus. Having played college ball i can tell you there is no reason to miss as many foul shots as we do. If you dont make foul shooting a major priority in practice it will come back to bite you in games. My coach used to run our asses off if we missed foul shots in practice run to the point we puked. Trust me it worked as we became a very good foul shooting team. I have seen more than my share of SU practices over the years and we have never placed a huge emphasis on this aspect of the game. One year i believe that Jim did bring in an outside coach to help but year in and year out it has not been focused on. Also if you look back over the years you will see that we have always been a poor foul shooting team. Yes we have a year or two when we were good especially in the early years with guys like the Lee brothers but over the last ten years we have sucked. As good as a coach that Jim is he has never done well in this area.

practices I have been to over the years they shoot at least 100 FTs each and rarely practice zone.

Sent from my SCH-I200 using Tapatalk 2

 

[kcsu]

practices I have been to over the years they shoot at least 100 FTs each and rarely practice zone.

Sent from my SCH-I200 using Tapatalk 2

Guys my post has nothing to do with shooting free throw in practice. Every team shoots free throws every team has their version of practice pressure that is not my point. You can shoot free throws in practice until the cows come home but if your are just screwing around while you do it you might as well be attempting trick shots off the wall. Ok i will admit im wrong. Lets just keep doing what we have been doing as it is working so well.