Hale: Your Recruiting Success is Already Decided

[OttoinGrotto]

it would help if we hit our HR type player.. our Pitts McCoy or UL jackson,

maybe its TD, Eric got close to being that player

TD could be it.

Jordan is the guy I irrationally believe in though.

 

[IthacaMatt]

TD could be it.

Jordan is the guy I irrationally believe in though.

It's hardly "irrational". He looks like Barry Sanders to me, minus about 10-20 pounds, or at worst, a Mike Hart type (he could also do great things between the tackles), but even faster.

 

[SkyTopBus44]

So, in conclusion, the lines all go up (points to the chart), so I'm happy.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

It's hardly "irrational". He looks like Barry Sanders to me, minus about 10-20 pounds, or at worst, a Mike Hart type (he could also do great things between the tackles), but even faster.

No, it's irrational.

I'm convinced he's winning Heismans.

 

[All4SU]

It's also why I'm not a fan of "we're going to fit the system to the talent we have."

I mean... if the talent is limited anyway, just play the way you want to play so you can show the talent that fits better what it can be like.

Beyond that, if you’re not one of the top tier, you have to have something - a style; a charismatic coach; a unique fan base; something - to stand out. In the 80s we had the freeze option, Coach Mac, and the new Dome. It was a unique collection of attributes that made SU stand out.

 

[AlaskaSU]

Kinda why I compare ourselves to Clemson a lot. That’s the trajectory that I would like us to have but not a lot of people think it can happen. Why not us if Dino pulls a Dabo. We put guys in Nfl and watch how far we move up. We are taking 2 and 3* kids and making them into draft picks except for Robinson who was a 4*. Once kids see that we will get the good ones. I give our coaches extreme amounts of credit for doing what they have done with what they had to work with. Now we are juslowly going upwards and I feel it will continue. Now if we beat Clemson we may jump up faster. We are in the perfect spot to be the next Clemson. A class program with a class coach. OITNF.

Hale also mentions facilities a lot. There is no comparison between theirs and ours. Theirs is over the top.

 

[SoBristol]

Who are these special recruits who fit our systems, but not others? Other than a pro passer, and some undersized slot receivers (Riley, Nykeim Johnson etc), Dino is recruiting players who fit most systems & who usually have offers from other programs. The trick is to get more of the recruits that other good programs want.

And I think Dino is doing that, with a few more bigger, faster athletes and deeper classes. Step by step.

 

[hungrychuck]

Beyond that, if you’re not one of the top tier, you have to have something - a style; a charismatic coach; a unique fan base; something - to stand out. In the 80s we had the freeze option, Coach Mac, and the new Dome. It was a unique collection of attributes that made SU stand out.

It seems ridiculous to say this today, but there were also some programs at that time that were not quite sold on recruiting black quarterbacks. That did not hurt our fortunes.

 

[RandomGuy]

Who are these special recruits who fit our systems, but not others? Other than a pro passer, and some undersized slot receivers (Riley, Nykeim Johnson etc), Dino is recruiting players who fit most systems & who usually have offers from other programs. The trick is to get more of the recruits that other good programs want.

And I think Dino is doing that, with a few more bigger, faster athletes and deeper classes. Step by step.

Well, there are RBs that may be more suited for a ZBS vs. Man scheme. Same for linemen, who also may be better suited for the run vs. pass. Types of routes a receiver runs best, etc. Etc. Etc...

Understand your larger point, though. If we can't get the 4 or 5 star, they'll target the kids they can get, that possess some kind of elite ability. (Speed, quickness, size, strength etc.). When development pays off, we get a season like last year. This team is SOOO much faster, utilizing that recruiting technique.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Who are these special recruits who fit our systems, but not others? Other than a pro passer, and some undersized slot receivers (Riley, Nykeim Johnson etc), Dino is recruiting players who fit most systems & who usually have offers from other programs. The trick is to get more of the recruits that other good programs want.

And I think Dino is doing that, with a few more bigger, faster athletes and deeper classes. Step by step.

I think we have a pretty specific profile for corner, safety, defensive end and offensive line.

 

[HOFCeluck]

So, in conclusion, the lines all go up (points to the chart), so I'm happy.

In conclusion, the ACC is a land of contrasts.

 

[HtownOrange]

Were there recruit rankings pre 1999?

Furthest I could go back was 2000. Incomplete data, but we were ranked #18. Today, #18 is good for 8 or 9 four stars, maybe a 5 star.

Can things change? Absolutely. This data set may not indicate that. For reference, Clemson's recruit rankings:
2009: 36
2010: 27
(Down years)

In 2000, when we were ranked #18, Clemson was ranked #33.

I get your point, but my point stands based on the fact that Hale claims nobody but FSU, Clemson and Miami will rule the roost. While the three have the greatest recruiting classes, the hardware should match the recruits. Bama, based on the above report, would have nothing but championships yet they don't. It wasn't long ago that Bama was just so-so.

Hale's premise is that recruiting is decided. Forever. I think all of us over 40 realize that times change, coaches change, circumstances change. Besides, let's be honest, if the SEC did not pay players, or at least enforce academic standards, the only school that could field a team would be Vandy.

Anyway, the article is a decent means of getting hits, Hale succeeded. Offseason fodder to keep people interested and reading.

 

[SUskibum]

Hale also mentions facilities a lot. There is no comparison between theirs and ours. Theirs is over the top.

Clemson’s facilities are not what they were when Dabo started.

You could argue that he built the enthusiasm that funded much of what they have now.

If you close one eye, and squint with the other, you could almost see the same thing with Dino. Notice the huge uptick in seasons tickets, the upgrade in support staff, the upgrade in coaching salaries, the private plane membership, the consistent upgrade to facilities including the finalization of Dome phase 1 etc, etc, etc

 

[kcsu]

We are in good shape because our AD and BOT is willing to be patient. Dino has a top 10 if not top 5 strength and training staff that is 1000% in tune with his strategy.
This is Dinos secret sauce. It enables him to recruit players that can be developed by the S&C team. Its why guys like Kingsley turn into stars. Dino recruits speed, frame two attributes that can be molded.
He doesn't need 5 stars. He creates them. This in combination with a very unique scheme that is made for the Dome is what makes Dino a perfect fit for Syracuse.
An AD who is into the long play
A coach who understands the advantage of our Stadium
A great eye for players who can develop physically
A S&C staff that can mold that raw talent
A scheme that evens the playing field against superior talent.

Bottom line. Dino is one hell of a coach and is the perfect fit for Syracuse.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

I get your point, but my point stands based on the fact that Hale claims nobody but FSU, Clemson and Miami will rule the roost. While the three have the greatest recruiting classes, the hardware should match the recruits. Bama, based on the above report, would have nothing but championships yet they don't. It wasn't long ago that Bama was just so-so.

Hale's premise is that recruiting is decided. Forever. I think all of us over 40 realize that times change, coaches change, circumstances change. Besides, let's be honest, if the SEC did not pay players, or at least enforce academic standards, the only school that could field a team would be Vandy.

Anyway, the article is a decent means of getting hits, Hale succeeded. Offseason fodder to keep people interested and reading.

You're dismissing the concept because Bama doesn't win every championship?

 

[RandomGuy]

You're dismissing the concept because Bama doesn't win every championship?

Nahh. He's pointing out that things change.(not presented in article) Example
Alabama recruiting rankings:
2001 #28
2002 #47
2003 #41

 

[RandomGuy]

We are in good shape because our AD and BOT is willing to be patient. Dino has a top 10 if not top 5 strength and training staff that is 1000% in tune with his strategy.
This is Dinos secret sauce. It enables him to recruit players that can be developed by the S&C team. Its why guys like Kingsley turn into stars. Dino recruits speed, frame two attributes that can be molded.
He doesn't need 5 stars. He creates them. This in combination with a very unique scheme that is made for the Dome is what makes Dino a perfect fit for Syracuse.
An AD who is into the long play
A coach who understands the advantage of our Stadium
A great eye for players who can develop physically
A S&C staff that can mold that raw talent
A scheme that evens the playing field against superior talent.

Bottom line. Dino is one hell of a coach and is the perfect fit for Syracuse.

Whole heartedly agree. He's also recruiting well. If you check our all time recruits? After the top 13(some of who didn't show up), Dino is responsible, for #14,15,16,17,18,19,20. That's consistently good. We should be ready for the occasionally great.

#20 with a grade of .8817. .0083 from being a 4 star.

 

[MadNY3]

Great find, solid data and analysis.

Two things stuck out:

For one, perhaps schools invest too much in recruiting. Sure, at the top, one or two more blue chippers might be the difference between getting to the conference title game and winning it all. But for the most part, you get the kids you get, and it’s hard for any coach to screw it up too badly or improve it too dramatically. The changes are incremental. Decisions on the culture you want and the specific recruits you go after is probably more important than the ability to sell generic blue-chip recruits on the school.

I recall when Babers came in he made a comment to the effect of based on the players that had been recruited to the roster, he couldn't figure out what kind of team the previous staff was trying to have. Part of our improvement almost certainly stems from the fact that the staff has recruited in accordance to the systems they're trying to run.

Then this:

Perhaps coaches that are stronger in player development should be valued a good bit more than the supposed recruiting geniuses.

Edinger effect.

Sensational article.

In what is unquestionable an arms race, it is smart to spend some money, but likely not the most, behind a focused strategy.

 

[bcubs9497]

Great find, solid data and analysis.

Two things stuck out:

For one, perhaps schools invest too much in recruiting. Sure, at the top, one or two more blue chippers might be the difference between getting to the conference title game and winning it all. But for the most part, you get the kids you get, and it’s hard for any coach to screw it up too badly or improve it too dramatically. The changes are incremental. Decisions on the culture you want and the specific recruits you go after is probably more important than the ability to sell generic blue-chip recruits on the school.

I recall when Babers came in he made a comment to the effect of based on the players that had been recruited to the roster, he couldn't figure out what kind of team the previous staff was trying to have. Part of our improvement almost certainly stems from the fact that the staff has recruited in accordance to the systems they're trying to run.

Then this:

Perhaps coaches that are stronger in player development should be valued a good bit more than the supposed recruiting geniuses.

Edinger effect.

Baber's secret weapon. If you ask me, Sean's a HUGE reason for last year's success. And will be instrumental in any future success.

 

[TheCusian]

Who are these special recruits who fit our systems, but not others? Other than a pro passer, and some undersized slot receivers (Riley, Nykeim Johnson etc), Dino is recruiting players who fit most systems & who usually have offers from other programs. The trick is to get more of the recruits that other good programs want.

And I think Dino is doing that, with a few more bigger, faster athletes and deeper classes. Step by step.

The best players are good to great at most things their positions require. The next tier will be a mix of good and areas of weakness. It’s having a system and knowing what to skimp on and where you can’t.

 

[shu 49]

Clemson’s facilities are not what they were when Dabo started.

You could argue that he built the enthusiasm that funded much of what they have now.

If you close one eye, and squint with the other, you could almost see the same thing with Dino. Notice the huge uptick in seasons tickets, the upgrade in support staff, the upgrade in coaching salaries, the private plane membership, the consistent upgrade to facilities including the finalization of Dome phase 1 etc, etc, etc

That’s what I’m saying. I hate when people say I or we can’t. We can and damn it will.

 

[OrlandoCuse]

Winning will definitely help recruiting. Let’s keep that going.

On another level, Dino and the staff will continue to impact recruiting. I’m not sure how any kid could look at Dino and say they wouldn’t want to play for him.

But the real missing piece is putting lots of kids in the NFL at a high and consistent level. That’s one of the missing pieces, but it also takes the longest to realize because a coach has to be here for longer than 3 years for it to be seen. The elite blue chip recruits want to see a path to the NFL. That’s why so many go to Bama every year, even when they are sitting behind other elite blue chippers for 2 years. When you can claim that 50%+ of your recruiting class gets drafted coming out of college it’s a very powerful recruiting tool. If Dino starts having 5 or 6 guys drafted every year, watch out.

 

[SWC75]

Yes, it was well researched and well written.

I think we were all hoping the 10-3 season would have a immediate major affect on recruiting.

It should be clear to all by now that this is not going to be the case. Maybe we will end up ranked in the range of the 40th class in the country for this year instead of in the range of the 50th with the class last year.

If anything, ramping up recruiting might be slower with Syracuse than with other schools because of the relative lack of talent in the region.

Filling out the roster with good (not great) players, so we have quality depth is phase 1 and that is close to complete.

I think phase 2 is increasing the quality of the recruits. More high 3s and low 4s are needed. I think we are entering this phase right about now.

Coaches have often said over the years that a big improvement in the record impacts recruiting 1-2 years down the road but not you'r next class. You've been recruiting that class for a couple of years. The big season is a fare that captures the attention of those who are just starting the process.

 

[SWC75]

Snap shot diagrams and data are interesting but why not go back 20-30-50 years? Because it does not support his desired conclusion. Clemson did nothing for 30 years before Dabo. Miami and FSU always have top classes, but have little in the way of trophies to support the claims.

SU pulled in top tallent back in the late Coach Mac and early Coach P eras. We won lots of games. When the coaching stagnates, when the money (support) stagnates, the recruiting and play on the field stagnate.

Nice work with a snapshot but not very accurate. Need far more data points to prove the point.

Except win a national championship: Clemson Historical Scores

It's like saying Jim Boeheim "built Syracuse up from nothing", which I've also heard on this board. Both men built their programs to heights they had never obtained before but that doesn't mean they didn't have success before that.

 

[HtownOrange]

Except win a national championship: Clemson Historical Scores

It's like saying Jim Boeheim "built Syracuse up from nothing", which I've also heard on this board. Both men built their programs to heights they had never obtained before but that doesn't mean they didn't have success before that.

Hale's point is that Clemson, Miami and FSU can't lose because they recruit so well. Clemson does not have 30 Championships to back up the recruiting. Alabama does not have the hardware to match their recruiting. Texas, Michigan, tOSU, OU, USC (west, not to be confused with the imaginarium known as Rutgers), TAMU, et al. The point is, change occurs, teams rise and fall. A short window centered on Dabo Swinney's tenure at Clemson (could choose Saban's tenure at Bama, and several other examples) does not translate well to overall history.

For the record, I never claimed Swinney had nothing in the cupboard when he took over (nor Jimmy B. for that matter).