Class of 2017 How is our recruiting not better at skill positions?

[leftytg]

1) I'm comparing SU past and present. It really doesn't matter if Rivals gives the guy a 2 and scout a 3. What matters is that in prior years X gave us a Y and now X is giving our players a Y-Z. Unless you think that Rivals is a huge outlier when it comes to trends, then all your points about Rivals are irrelevant. And for the record, there is a very high correlation between a ranking in one service and a ranking in another. It's not 100%, sure. But there is a very high correlation.

And 2) true, but our offense is what's going to carry our team with our current schemes. We have to over index. Anyway, my original comment was that we aren't doing better, which is surprising, given we are running a scheme that's wildly more WR-friendly (and QB and RB).

I don't understand how any of that's hard to grasp.

your gripe is a year too early, in my opinion. Dino has been recruiting without any track record at Syracuse and selling hope, belief, and what happened at Bowling Green, Eastern Illinois, and Baylor. All of your pointing out the numbers Syracuse has put up so far this year ignored that recruiting is a process, involves building relationships, and isn't simply a function of recruits watching numbers over half a season and suddenly surging toward Syracuse. Dino will be able to use this season much more effectively for the following class.

The other thing, in my opinion, that you are dramatically under rating is the commitment of Devito. QB is - by far - the most important position on the field. Dino has secured the program's first ESPN300 player, an Elite 11 finalist, a guy who warded off interest from Texas A&M (who has regularly brought in 5 star qb's the last several recruiting classes). Devito - alone - makes this effort head and shoulders above recent classes. Devito wouldn't be going to Syracuse under the offensive scheme' of previous regimes.

Right now the program is in excellent shape with Dungey at QB the next 2 1/2 years, with Culpepper as (hopefully) quality depth. Devito will have the luxury of redshirting (should the staff feel it is in the best interest). There are no guarantees in recruiting and development, but it is hard not to be optimistic about the QB position at syracuse for the next 5+ years. With this system and with the most important position nailed down, the skill positions will take care of themselves as the next few years unfold.

 

[RF2044]

1) I'm comparing SU past and present. It really doesn't matter if Rivals gives the guy a 2 and scout a 3. What matters is that in prior years X gave us a Y and now X is giving our players a Y-Z. Unless you think that Rivals is a huge outlier when it comes to trends, then all your points about Rivals are irrelevant. And for the record, there is a very high correlation between a ranking in one service and a ranking in another. It's not 100%, sure. But there is a very high correlation.

And 2) true, but our offense is what's going to carry our team with our current schemes. We have to over index. Anyway, my original comment was that we aren't doing better, which is surprising, given we are running a scheme that's wildly more WR-friendly (and QB and RB).

I don't understand how any of that's hard to grasp.

Your original comment was wrong. We have lined up a QB who us rated higher than anybody we've landed in decades. The RB commit we got was coveted by Michigan.

What part of THAT aren't you grasping?

This preoccupation with Rivals rankings aren't supporting your point, it is pigeonholing the context of your argument, and demonstrating that you don't have a very good handle on the offensive recruits we have commits from.

No need for the sky is falling hysteria. This class is a nice foundational step to build upon. Success begats success on the recruiting trail.

 

[LeMoyneCuse]

Your original comment was wrong. We have lined up a QB who us rated higher than anybody we've landed in decades. The RB commit we got was coveted by Michigan.

What part of THAT aren't you grasping?

This preoccupation with Rivals rankings aren't supporting your point, it is pigeonholing the context of your argument, and demonstrating that you don't have a very good handle on the offensive recruits we have commits from.

No need for the sky is falling hysteria. This class is a nice foundational step to build upon. Success begats success on the recruiting trail.

I think the problem here is the assumption that recruiting rankings are indicative of future success. They're not. They're rankings that gauge athletic ability and skill level against competition that can range from solid to horrid by people who base talent on a benchmark that may or may not match the priorities and goals of other teams.

 

[TheCusian]

1. Our class or rated higher than any in the past 10+ years
2. If we believe we have the right staff who are good at evaluating talent, then that means this class fits what they want to do, better. Emphasis on speed and height, when a guy is not tall he has elite speed.
3. Most of the current guys were recruited before anyone saw this O in a Syracuse uni. They bought in early.
4. I'd be shocked if we don't grab a highly rated kid late somehow
5. I'd be even more shocked if don't see a bump in 2018.

 

[longtimefan]

1) I'm comparing SU past and present. It really doesn't matter if Rivals gives the guy a 2 and scout a 3. What matters is that in prior years X gave us a Y and now X is giving our players a Y-Z. Unless you think that Rivals is a huge outlier when it comes to trends, then all your points about Rivals are irrelevant. And for the record, there is a very high correlation between a ranking in one service and a ranking in another. It's not 100%, sure. But there is a very high correlation.

And 2) true, but our offense is what's going to carry our team with our current schemes. We have to over index. Anyway, my original comment was that we aren't doing better, which is surprising, given we are running a scheme that's wildly more WR-friendly (and QB and RB).

I don't understand how any of that's hard to grasp.

I don't really follow football recruiting, so I didn't take the time to check previous years; but for the class of 2017, ESPN has 17 of our 19 recruits rated 3 stars or better (Devito). The two who are not so rated are the two Canadians, whom I assume they haven't seen.

 

[Killdozer]

1) I'm comparing SU past and present. It really doesn't matter if Rivals gives the guy a 2 and scout a 3. What matters is that in prior years X gave us a Y and now X is giving our players a Y-Z. Unless you think that Rivals is a huge outlier when it comes to trends, then all your points about Rivals are irrelevant. And for the record, there is a very high correlation between a ranking in one service and a ranking in another. It's not 100%, sure. But there is a very high correlation.

And 2) true, but our offense is what's going to carry our team with our current schemes. We have to over index. Anyway, my original comment was that we aren't doing better, which is surprising, given we are running a scheme that's wildly more WR-friendly (and QB and RB).

I don't understand how any of that's hard to grasp.

What I can't grasp is why the star rating is so important to you. Dino is the coach and the best person to evaluate the players that fit his system regardless of the star rankings. My suggestion to you is become an Alabama fan since star rankings are your bread & butter for player evaluation otherwise, get on board the SU train and look at the positives that this entire new coaching staff and AD are bringing to the hill.

 

[PhatOrange]

What about the multiple 2 stars? These WR recruits don't look better than SS' - at least not on paper.

on paper? why don't you watch the WR film then and judge for yourself. IMHO on paper they are all better except for Ish, though I was high on Avant and Enoicy. Enoicy still has 2 years left.

Jordan, Palmer and RTB across the board are bigger than 6-2. As big or bigger than Atta-Two

two 4 seven seems to like our class. They put Syracuse in their top list of first year staffs that are recruiting well and they cite 2 WRs.

SYRACUSE

The consensus is it won’t be long before Dino Babers has a high-powered offense rocking the Carrier Dome and among the scoring leaders in the ACC. He has his quarterback of the future with four-star pledge Tommy Devito out of powerhouse Don Bosco Prep in Ramsey, New Jersey. Assistant coach Nick Monroe landed three steals out of south Florida with wideouts Sharod Johnson and Josh Palmer from powerhouse programs Miami/Booker T. Washington and Fort Lauderdale, Fla./St. Thomas Aquinas along with the top linebacker in Miami Nadarius Fagan. This is a group that will be the foundation for the revival of the Orange program.

http://eastcarolina.No links to . . . allowed on this site.com/Bolt/First-year-staffs-recruiting-well-47650578

 

[IthacaBarrel]

And again, I think Syracuse will max out about top 25-30 classes in recruiting. Tops. We have and always will be a developmental program, anyone waiting for a bunch of 4 stars every year will be waiting a long long time. Plain and simple. We need to continue to build on the field, improve the dome, stay consistent with our staff and build relationships and good faith. It's just like every other business in the world and it's not rocket science

 

[cuse309]

This sounds like loser talk. If we had 'em posters would be singing a different tune. The truth is that there are certainly many other factors, but pretending like stars/ranking aren't important is insane. There is a very strong correlation between stars and winning.

Would it be nice to get nothing but 4 and 5 star recruits? Of course. But the star ranking system, is not nearly important as people think they are. Do you really think the coaches push harder for a guy because he has a 5 star ranking? No. Coaches do their own evaluations. I know people probably get sick of me mentioning this on this board, but the level we have recruited at, and are recruiting at right now, are fine for building a competitive, top 25 team. You need look no further than the final preseason poll every year. A large portion of the top 25 poll at the end of the year, every year, has teams that rank where we do, or even lower than us in recruiting. We usually end up in the 40-70 range. There are teams with class rankings lower than 70 that finish in the top 25.
What's exciting, is to think about how much better our team can look with better recruiting, but it's not as if we're without hope with how we recruit now.

 

[TheCusian]

And again, I think Syracuse will max out about top 25-30 classes in recruiting. Tops. We have and always will be a developmental program, anyone waiting for a bunch of 4 stars every year will be waiting a long long time. Plain and simple. We need to continue to build on the field, improve the dome, stay consistent with our staff and build relationships and good faith. It's just like every other business in the world and it's not rocket science

I kind of disagree. I think at QB, RB, WR, and possibly OL - we could be nabbing quite a few 4* kids from NJ, PA and FL in 2019. Our primary competition might be what Michigan and Ohio State? Not everyone wants to go that far.

Rutgers implosion helps a bit... But our #'s will help more.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

I kind of disagree. I think at QB, RB, WR, and possibly OL - we could be nabbing quite a few 4* kids from NJ, PA and FL in 2019. Our primary competition might be what Michigan and Ohio State? Not everyone wants to go that far.

Rutgers implosion helps a bit... But our #'s will help more.

Do I think we can 4-5 kids each year that our 4 stars at some point? Sure. Doubt you will ever see more than that here, as Marrone use to say we are only as good as the last 7-10 kids we take. That is where GROB failed and looks like Shafer did too. Shafer also took a lot of risk on kids that would never make it grade wise

 

[tep624]

Do I think we can 4-5 kids each year that our 4 stars at some point? Sure. Doubt you will ever see more than that here, as Marrone use to say we are only as good as the last 7-10 kids we take. That is where GROB failed and looks like Shafer did too. Shafer also took a lot of risk on kids that would never make it grade wise

Shafer's classes (I throw out the 2013 and 2016 versions due to the coaching changes) were always pretty solid in the middle. His 2014 class was responsible for Slayton, Franklin, Cordy, Samuels, Dowels, Hudson, R. Williams, Ishmael, J. Thomas, Roberts, Bennett - 2/3 star guys that are all 2 deep contributors when healthy. But based on rankings and hype, arguably the top 4 guys in that class were AJ Long, KJ Williams, Alin Edouard and Adly Enoicy - 2 of the 4 never step foot on campus and only one remains and hasn't had much of an impact. 2015 was very similar, our top 3 recruits were (by most accounts) Blair, Ealey, and Strickland, and only 1 of the 3 is here and contributing.

The meat of our classes are what will make the program sustain but the top end of the classes is what will give us an opportunity to compete with the FSU, Clemson, L'ville, etc type teams and we can't afford to go 0-3 or 0-4 at the top of our class every year.

I have not seen, in a very long time, our staff identify a kid, get in a prolonged recruiting battle with powerhouse schools, come out on top, and that kid come in and be healthy for four years and make a significant impact. A kid like Konrad for instance. Even with this staff, we're getting the jump early as we should and then fending off power programs when they look to fill out their classes, i.e. Nelson with Georgia, etc.

 

[tep624]

Another point to note:

44 players currently on our 2 deep. Only EIGHT on the 2 deep - and of those eight, only TWO starters from the 2013 class. Hodge, Burton, Winfield, Scissum, Estime, Moore, Lasker, McGloster.

For contrast, there are currently 6 members of the 2016 class on the 2 deep, and two starters. Neal, Butler, Black, Williams, Coleman, Jones. If you add in the Grad Transfers, Etta Tawo and Wilson, then there are 8 players brought in in 2016 on the 2 deep. As many in total as the 2013 class, and one more starter than the 2013 class.

That's just nuts.

It can't be stressed enough the negative impact that recruiting year had on the program. That is why having DB come in with a staff intact, with recruits already identified, and filling out a quality 2016 class was so, so important. We will be so much better set up in a few years because of that.

 

[upperdeck]

By ESPN numbers next years class is already a bit better.. if they can find just 3-4 kids who can step on the field next year added to the RS this year and the youth we would actually have some depth. but if the numbers hold true then may find 4-5 who can play at the same level as the Fr did this year and that would be great too.

 

[PhatOrange]

Shafer's classes (I throw out the 2013 and 2016 versions due to the coaching changes) were always pretty solid in the middle. His 2014 class was responsible for Slayton, Franklin, Cordy, Samuels, Dowels, Hudson, R. Williams, Ishmael, J. Thomas, Roberts, Bennett - 2/3 star guys that are all 2 deep contributors when healthy. But based on rankings and hype, arguably the top 4 guys in that class were AJ Long, KJ Williams, Alin Edouard and Adly Enoicy - 2 of the 4 never step foot on campus and only one remains and hasn't had much of an impact. 2015 was very similar, our top 3 recruits were (by most accounts) Blair, Ealey, and Strickland, and only 1 of the 3 is here and contributing.

The meat of our classes are what will make the program sustain but the top end of the classes is what will give us an opportunity to compete with the FSU, Clemson, L'ville, etc type teams and we can't afford to go 0-3 or 0-4 at the top of our class every year.

I have not seen, in a very long time, our staff identify a kid, get in a prolonged recruiting battle with powerhouse schools, come out on top, and that kid come in and be healthy for four years and make a significant impact. A kid like Konrad for instance. Even with this staff, we're getting the jump early as we should and then fending off power programs when they look to fill out their classes, i.e. Nelson with Georgia, etc.

Good point. We need to recruit and land a few kids like Wright.

It also will legitimize this staff on the recruiting trail.

 

[tep624]

Good point. We need to recruit and land a few kids like Wright.

It also will legitimize this staff on the recruiting trail.

Yeah we need a couple of statement recruits. Wright is a nice recruit but I'd even take it further than him. We need to get into a battle over a few Rivals 250 or ESPN 300 kids and win those battles. This stuff is contagious. We start making waves, kids will notice and Syracuse will be the new trendy school to look at.

The thing about Wright though, we have a golden opportunity with a family connection with Ruff already on the roster. And historically, this is a recruitment that we would blow. I mean how many times did we have the older brother, or the cousin of the heavily recruited recruit and get blown by?

Speaking of Ruff, is he playing on Specials now?

 

[PhatOrange]

Yeah we need a couple of statement recruits. Wright is a nice recruit but I'd even take it further than him. We need to get into a battle over a few Rivals 250 or ESPN 300 kids and win those battles. This stuff is contagious. We start making waves, kids will notice and Syracuse will be the new trendy school to look at.

The thing about Wright though, we have a golden opportunity with a family connection with Ruff already on the roster. And historically, this is a recruitment that we would blow. I mean how many times did we have the older brother, or the cousin of the heavily recruited recruit and get blown by?

Speaking of Ruff, is he playing on Specials now?

I hear ya on the top 250 stuff and I think it'll happen with 1 or 2, but these high major 3's in the south like Wright are loaded with big offers. To me that's what we need.

If 5-8 of our kids are this type of recruit we'll be in great shape.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

Yeah we need a couple of statement recruits. Wright is a nice recruit but I'd even take it further than him. We need to get into a battle over a few Rivals 250 or ESPN 300 kids and win those battles. This stuff is contagious. We start making waves, kids will notice and Syracuse will be the new trendy school to look at.

The thing about Wright though, we have a golden opportunity with a family connection with Ruff already on the roster. And historically, this is a recruitment that we would blow. I mean how many times did we have the older brother, or the cousin of the heavily recruited recruit and get blown by?

Speaking of Ruff, is he playing on Specials now?

I thought played some DE on Saturday, could be wrong though

 

[Crusty]

Yeah we need a couple of statement recruits. Wright is a nice recruit but I'd even take it further than him. We need to get into a battle over a few Rivals 250 or ESPN 300 kids and win those battles. This stuff is contagious. We start making waves, kids will notice and Syracuse will be the new trendy school to look at.

The thing about Wright though, we have a golden opportunity with a family connection with Ruff already on the roster. And historically, this is a recruitment that we would blow. I mean how many times did we have the older brother, or the cousin of the heavily recruited recruit and get blown by?

Speaking of Ruff, is he playing on Specials now?

You make a very valid point. Recruiting can be very trendy and the dome renovation timing may be fortuitous.

 

[SYR2RDU]

We already have one big "win" in Fagan.. look at the kids offer list, it is as good as any as any commit we have got in the past 10 years..

People seem to be forgetting about that kid

 

[javadoc]

I don't think this is all that hard. Most blue chip prospects, at any position, think they are too good for Syracuse, no matter what. I don't understand all the debate.

 

[orangefog]

You want stars, I will give you stars. Your recruits are only three stars and you want 4 and 5 stars? I have the machine for you.

 

[bnoro]

Kingsley, Palmer, & Strinzinger all have good offer lists as well.

The best part is we're landing kids from power house programs. This means they're that much more prepared to transition into a D1 program.

 

[upperdeck]

I thought played some DE on Saturday, could be wrong though

he did

 

[money3189]

Stop looking at stars with this system. It requires certain attributes that the coaches evaluate and are more important than arbitrary stars given by "analysts".

Agree and the 4 stars will come once we consistently win 7-8 games a year.