How long to fix SU football?

[Townie72]

Based on what I read in the "SU is a football school" thread it seems like quite a few fans who 1.) Believe that a fix isn't far off and 2.) Who think that Marrone will be fired if he doen't fix things in the next year or two.

Both of these positions are wrong.

First, its going to take a much longer time that many think to make the teams truly competitive with the better teams on the SU schedule. And we have to become competitive before we can become "good" as in "1987 good" or "mid-190's good". At our current rate of improvement, we are years away from 7 and 8 win seasons consistently.

The last time we were in this same pickle was in starting in 1971 and it took 16 years to get back to the level we were at on the late 1960's. And it was easier then because there were a lot fewer teams trying to get a share of the Northeast talent (NJ, NY, PA and New England)

Second, you better hope that Marrone can pull this off, because he is going to be the SU football coach for a long time. He's not going to be fired for 4 or 5 win seasons because its unclear anyone else could do a better job. And the University isn't going to gamble on yet another coach. Hiring the latest hotshot isn't always the answer (Ask Michigan).

 

[Faegan]

I think you are right that Marrone isn't going anywhere anytime soon unless we start to get 1-3 win seasons regularly. I don't think anyone knows how far off we are from winning consistently, though. It will be interesting to see what facility upgrades are put in place and whether or not we can make headway in recruiting because of them. Same goes for the move to the ACC... both in having better opponents in the dome and better away trips for recruits. The fact of the matter is right now our goal is to get to a bowl regularly and score a couple of big wins while doing it.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

The last time we were in this same pickle was in starting in 1971 and it took 16 years to get back to the level we were at on the late 1960's. And it was easier then because there were a lot fewer teams trying to get a share of the Northeast talent (NJ, NY, PA and New England)

In the late 60's SU was a little better than a .500 team:
1968: 6-4
1969: 5-5
1970: 6-4
1971: 5-5-1.

It shouldn't take 16 years to get back to that.

Or did you mean to say late 50's? Is it your opinion that the program has to go undefeated again to be considered "fixed"?

 

[cusestudent]

How is this the same as 1971? Show me proof we're in that same situation seeing as I wasn't around for that. Looking at wikipedia I'd say we're entering 1984 if we're doing comparisons here. Did anyone think SU was going to do what it did leading up to the 1987 season? 6-5, 6-5, 7-5, 5-6 the four years preceding 1987 would not lead me to expect a season like SU had...

All we can do at this point and guess but there are noticeable changes going on at this time. Does more need to be done? You bet, and if Marrone doesn't produce then he won't be brought back after a fifth year. FSU, Miami, OSU, Michigan, USC, ND, etc. Name any big name school and they went through a slum. It's the nature of the college game for a team to have a bad stretch, and then come back to glory days. By going to the ACC that will only help to speed up the process simply because the conference is overrated as hell and we'll be middle of the road from day one, and we continue to improve. Now what if Broyld turns into RGIII? Then the program takes off in a whole new way.

 

[rrlbees]

Based on what I read in the "SU is a football school" thread it seems like quite a few fans who 1.) Believe that a fix isn't far off and 2.) Who think that Marrone will be fired if he doen't fix things in the next year or two.

Both of these positions are wrong.

First, its going to take a much longer time that many think to make the teams truly competitive with the better teams on the SU schedule. And we have to become competitive before we can become "good" as in "1987 good" or "mid-190's good". At our current rate of improvement, we are years away from 7 and 8 win seasons consistently.

The last time we were in this same pickle was in starting in 1971 and it took 16 years to get back to the level we were at on the late 1960's. And it was easier then because there were a lot fewer teams trying to get a share of the Northeast talent (NJ, NY, PA and New England)

Second, you better hope that Marrone can pull this off, because he is going to be the SU football coach for a long time. He's not going to be fired for 4 or 5 win seasons because its unclear anyone else could do a better job. And the University isn't going to gamble on yet another coach. Hiring the latest hotshot isn't always the answer (Ask Michigan).

If all that is true then we wouldn't have been 8-5 two years ago or UConn wouldn't have gone to a BC bowl so soon. It doesn't take forever to turn a program around. If it does, the wrong coaches are hired. Some of you guys act like we have high school players out there and can't get a real college player for another decade.

 

[Townie72]

How is this the same as 1971? Show me proof we're in that same situation seeing as I wasn't around for that. Looking at wikipedia I'd say we're entering 1984 if we're doing comparisons here. Did anyone think SU was going to do what it did leading up to the 1987 season? 6-5, 6-5, 7-5, 5-6 the four years preceding 1987 would not lead me to expect a season like SU had...

All we can do at this point and guess but there are noticeable changes going on at this time. Does more need to be done? You bet, and if Marrone doesn't produce then he won't be brought back after a fifth year. FSU, Miami, OSU, Michigan, USC, ND, etc. Name any big name school and they went through a slum. It's the nature of the college game for a team to have a bad stretch, and then come back to glory days. By going to the ACC that will only help to speed up the process simply because the conference is overrated as hell and we'll be middle of the road from day one, and we continue to improve. Now what if Broyld turns into RGIII? Then the program takes off in a whole new way.

Looking at number won't give you much of an understanding. In 1984, we had juniors and seniors that were recruited as the Dome opened in 1980. You could see the steady progress on the field, even though the record didn't show it including beating Nebraska in the Dome.

Marrone will be here 4 or 5 more years at a minimum.

I haven't seen these "noticeable changes" except for the swan dive we took at the end of last season. I'd say that was noticeable.

 

[Townie72]

In the late 60's SU was a little better than a .500 team:
1968: 6-4
1969: 5-5
1970: 6-4
1971: 5-5-1.

It shouldn't take 16 years to get back to that.

Or did you mean to say late 50's? Is it your opinion that the program has to go undefeated again to be considered "fixed"?

Do you know who Little and Csonka were? Do you know when they played at SU? We were a good team during the 1960's.

These days a good team is 8 or 9 wins a year consistently. Not just one year. But year after year.

 

[Townie72]

If all that is true then we wouldn't have been 8-5 two years ago or UConn wouldn't have gone to a BC bowl so soon. It doesn't take forever to turn a program around. If it does, the wrong coaches are hired. Some of you guys act like we have high school players out there and can't get a real college player for another decade.

Let's see ... how long have we been down? Since 1999 some would say. How many years more? 2? 3? 5? 7? So it really is taking forever.

The last SU game I saw in person was BC at SU 2 years ago. BC pushed us around the field like we were a high school team.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

Do you know who Little and Csonka were? Do you know when they played at SU? We were a good team during the 1960's.

Little last played in 1966. Csonka in 1967. That's mid 1960's, not late 1960's.

 

[Townie72]

Let's see ... how long have we been down? Since 1999 some would say. How many years more? 2? 3? 5? 7? So it really is taking forever.

The last SU game I saw in person was BC at SU 2 years ago. BC pushed us around the field like we were a high school team.[/q

Little last played in 1966. Csonka in 1967. That's mid 1960's, not late 1960's.

That's a silly distinction and you are quibbling, not arguing. The second half of the decade can be described as the late 1960's.

 

[cusestudent]

Wow, there's no point in arguing with you since you have ALL the answers. First you say comparisons and numbers matter, now they don't matter???? We have been down since 2004 not 1999, we were 10-3 in what 2001? The recovery starts when you change coaches, not when the crap coach that sinks the program starts on the job. So recovery started in 2009, we went 4-8, that's a major improvement from 1-10...then we go to a bowl game the next year, and then the year after we have slim pickings for upperclassmen leadership and go 5-7. Now in year four of recovery we have some depth, size, and speed for the first time in a long time. Is a five year turnaround too long for you? If it is then you don't know football, if we go to a bowl game the next two years then the program is back and can focus on the next step. When you start going to games and following the program then you can talk, until then you're a basketball homer with an agenda it seems to me.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

I asked you for clarification on whether you really meant late 60's, or late 50's. Hardly a silly question.

SU only won 8 games twice in the second half of the decade ... followed by 6-4, 5-5, and 6-4 ... and 5-5-1 in 1971.

We were a good team in the early and mid-60's, but not for the entire decade.

 

[javadoc]

The last time we were in this same pickle was in starting in 1971 and it took 16 years to get back to the level we were at on the late 1960's.

I wasn't old enough to follow football back then, but a simple comparison like this strikes me as leaving out too many possibly complicating factors. How is our current program state like it was in 1971? How is it different? Which factors are of greatest importance in a return to strength?

IMO only, but the increased strength of the schedule in the ACC probably sets us back 2 years in my overall expectations for seasonal record. As it was in the BE, I expected 1-game improvement per year up to 8-4, which I consider the front door to being a successful program. So we had:

2009: 4-8
2010: 5-7 (7-5 actual)
2011: 6-6 (5-7 actual)
2012: 7-5
2013: 8-4

Now, assuming that we enter the ACC in 2013, I expect:

2012: 7-5
2013: 6-6
2014: 7-5
2015: 8-4

We'll be on the doorstop of success in 2015, with more time needed to reach a competitive level with every team on the schedule. But a baseline expectation of at least 8-4 each year is fine with me.

 

[xc84]

Based on what I read in the "SU is a football school" thread it seems like quite a few fans who 1.) Believe that a fix isn't far off and 2.) Who think that Marrone will be fired if he doen't fix things in the next year or two.

Both of these positions are wrong.

First, its going to take a much longer time that many think to make the teams truly competitive with the better teams on the SU schedule. And we have to become competitive before we can become "good" as in "1987 good" or "mid-190's good". At our current rate of improvement, we are years away from 7 and 8 win seasons consistently.

The last time we were in this same pickle was in starting in 1971 and it took 16 years to get back to the level we were at on the late 1960's. And it was easier then because there were a lot fewer teams trying to get a share of the Northeast talent (NJ, NY, PA and New England)

Second, you better hope that Marrone can pull this off, because he is going to be the SU football coach for a long time. He's not going to be fired for 4 or 5 win seasons because its unclear anyone else could do a better job. And the University isn't going to gamble on yet another coach. Hiring the latest hotshot isn't always the answer (Ask Michigan).

I mostly agree. However, a 4 win season would put a ton of pressure on Gross and Cantor to fire Marrone. It might not be the right thing because there are many details involved in "improvement", I could see him fired over such a record. I agree with the rest though.

 

[OrangePA]

Based on what I read in the "SU is a football school" thread it seems like quite a few fans who 1.) Believe that a fix isn't far off and 2.) Who think that Marrone will be fired if he doen't fix things in the next year or two.

Both of these positions are wrong.

First, its going to take a much longer time that many think to make the teams truly competitive with the better teams on the SU schedule. And we have to become competitive before we can become "good" as in "1987 good" or "mid-190's good". At our current rate of improvement, we are years away from 7 and 8 win seasons consistently.

The last time we were in this same pickle was in starting in 1971 and it took 16 years to get back to the level we were at on the late 1960's. And it was easier then because there were a lot fewer teams trying to get a share of the Northeast talent (NJ, NY, PA and New England)

Second, you better hope that Marrone can pull this off, because he is going to be the SU football coach for a long time. He's not going to be fired for 4 or 5 win seasons because its unclear anyone else could do a better job. And the University isn't going to gamble on yet another coach. Hiring the latest hotshot isn't always the answer (Ask Michigan).

Though we were not headed in the right direction in 1971, the fact is that that year we had a lot of talent - at least on the defensive side of the ball.

The problem that year was speed at the RB position and weakness at the QB position.

Had we had Randy Zur or Paul Paolisso that year, we may have gone bowling.

By 1973 the program was dying.

And the eventual cure came about six years later - the Carrier Dome.

The Dome allowed Coach Mac to develope the program.

Now we need the equivalent of the Dome of the 21st Century - a new and dynamic indoor practice facility with all of the bells and whistles.

In the 1950s it was the expansion of Archbold. In the 1960s it was Manley Field House. In the 1980s is was the Dome.

We are at another cross-road and need to take the next step.

If that is done, I am confident that in three years we will be a very solid program.

 

[tipphill]

Though we were not headed in the right direction in 1971, the fact is that that year we had a lot of talent - at least on the defensive side of the ball.

The problem that year was speed at the RB position and weakness at the QB position.

Had we had Randy Zur or Paul Paolisso that year, we may have gone bowling.

By 1973 the program was dying.

And the eventual cure came about six years later - the Carrier Dome.

The Dome allowed Coach Mac to develope the program.

Now we need the equivalent of the Dome of the 21st Century - a new and dynamic indoor practice facility with all of the bells and whistles.

In the 1950s it was the expansion of Archbold. In the 1960s it was Manley Field House. In the 1980s is was the Dome.

We are at another cross-road and need to take the next step.

If that is done, I am confident that in three years we will be a very solid program.

i agree with you,but we were at a crossroads 6 yrs ago---had we kept up p&d would still be here and we could have capitalized on success. s.u. has always come from "behind"---and i'am tired of posting the same old posts.---i said it back then and say it again---THINK OUT OF THE BOX, it costs more in the long run, than it does to take the lead. imagine the donantions when mcnabb and co. were here?

 

[sufan]

Based on what I read in the "SU is a football school" thread it seems like quite a few fans who 1.) Believe that a fix isn't far off and 2.) Who think that Marrone will be fired if he doen't fix things in the next year or two.

Both of these positions are wrong.

First, its going to take a much longer time that many think to make the teams truly competitive with the better teams on the SU schedule. And we have to become competitive before we can become "good" as in "1987 good" or "mid-190's good". At our current rate of improvement, we are years away from 7 and 8 win seasons consistently.

The last time we were in this same pickle was in starting in 1971 and it took 16 years to get back to the level we were at on the late 1960's. And it was easier then because there were a lot fewer teams trying to get a share of the Northeast talent (NJ, NY, PA and New England)

Second, you better hope that Marrone can pull this off, because he is going to be the SU football coach for a long time. He's not going to be fired for 4 or 5 win seasons because its unclear anyone else could do a better job. And the University isn't going to gamble on yet another coach. Hiring the latest hotshot isn't always the answer (Ask Michigan).

---------------------------

Forgive my ignorance, but who is that sinister looking person in your photo?

 

[tipphill]

Little last played in 1966. Csonka in 1967. That's mid 1960's, not late 1960's.

time flies, i have since applied for social security of which,500 goes for season tickets----thanks for the wakeup call

 

[Townie72]

---------------------------

Forgive my ignorance, but who is that sinister looking person in your photo?

"Sinister" is exactly the right word.

It is Ian McShane, an English actor, playing the part of Al Swearengen in the HBO series "Deadwood". If you think the picture is scary, you should watch the series which is a couple of years old. He is the owner of one of the saloons in Deadwood. When Al Swearengen talks about cutting someone's throat and feeding the corpse to Wu's pigs, you believe him.

 

[rosconey]

best fight scene ever-hearst's man against dan -swearengens man
it was so real you hurt watching
also the best hbo series ever-

 

[Townie72]

Though we were not headed in the right direction in 1971, the fact is that that year we had a lot of talent - at least on the defensive side of the ball.

The problem that year was speed at the RB position and weakness at the QB position.

Had we had Randy Zur or Paul Paolisso that year, we may have gone bowling.

By 1973 the program was dying.

And the eventual cure came about six years later - the Carrier Dome.

The Dome allowed Coach Mac to develope the program.

Now we need the equivalent of the Dome of the 21st Century - a new and dynamic indoor practice facility with all of the bells and whistles.

In the 1950s it was the expansion of Archbold. In the 1960s it was Manley Field House. In the 1980s is was the Dome.

We are at another cross-road and need to take the next step.

If that is done, I am confident that in three years we will be a very solid program.

So, in other words, if a miracle ocurs like the Carrier Dome which dropped out of the sky, you are "confident" we will be OK?

Would you characterize that as less than a ringing endorsement?

 

[JoeSU]

Hiring the latest hotshot isn't always the answer (Ask Michigan).

You mean like Turner Gill, Randy Edsall or Mike Locksley?

 

[SmilinBob]

There really isn't one fix all end all answer to this. But, if you have a good coach and quality stable staff you have a great base. I think we have that in the most part. A solid influx of cash will help get the desired results a bit quicker as well.

I think too many people look at school x and say that's what we have to do but SU has to be able to continue to build relationships with the recruits/hs coaches, fans and upgrade facilities. We can not get caught in living in the past and although I think we have had a pretty storied one I firmly believe this program can be a constant 6-10 game winner year after year.

To me, it depends how the players play and the coaches coach and even if we have a 4 win season and this team is close in a lot of the losses with this schedule, I won't be happy but winning close games is such a liquid type thing I understand it might be a simple play here or there that would be the difference. I just take each game within it's own context...ebbs and flows and look at it and brake it down. I did not like the way the season ended and how the team looked and was coached but something seemed to be going on and that still is the responsibility of the staff and to me, they seemed like they lost the team.

So for this program to get to the winning season stage I have to see more out of everyone. The staff, players, fans and SU. The staff has to continue to teach, instruct use good in game strategy and represent the University. The players have to have speed, size, game brains and keep out of trouble/have decent grades. The fans need to show up and be loud. Make it look like you care and stop it with the the team has to show me they're good thing, we need the Dome to be a place from hell for other teams. SU has to be proactive in its communication with the fans and players. Upgrading the facilities, having websites that make it easy for fans to understand, improve parking and make sure we have 7 real home games.

 

[suloyalfan]

In the late 60's SU was a little better than a .500 team:
Is it your opinion that the program has to go undefeated again to be considered "fixed"?

That's what I was thinking... what's the definition of "fixed"? A National Championship? Winning the ACC? BCS Bowl Game? Consistent 7-10 win seasons?

 

[OrangeMojo]

Looking at number won't give you much of an understanding. In 1984, we had juniors and seniors that were recruited as the Dome opened in 1980. You could see the steady progress on the field, even though the record didn't show it including beating Nebraska in the Dome.

Marrone will be here 4 or 5 more years at a minimum.

I haven't seen these "noticeable changes" except for the swan dive we took at the end of last season. I'd say that was noticeable.

well, SU beat the crap out of a pretty good WVU team last year that ended up dropping 70 points on the ACC champ in a BCS bowl game - not #1 in the country, but a very impressive win none-the-less. Once a few more facilities improvements are made SU will only be one very good recruiter and an innovative offensive system away from being consistently competitive in the ACC and nationally.

Syracuse is consistently being competitive with middle of the pack Big 10 and ACC teams since Marrone took over with what has been a less than perfect roster and what I currently consider to be a dumpster fire for an offensive game plan. If Doug can hire one semi-elite recruiter and swallow his pride and bring in an OC with a proven system that works like he was able to do on defense then SU will be in the upper half of the ACC quickly and able to compete for a slot in the ACC championship game on a regular basis.