How long to fix SU football?

[kcsu]

Great post. If Doug can swallow his pride... If we have another melt down year this year and if Doug survives would he can The Hack? Lets hope that we dont have to go there and that The Hack comes of age and actually runs a D1 O this year.

 

[Chip]

It depends on what you consider fixed. The GRob era kind of moved the goalpost on that one.

To get back to 90s level of success where we could compete with anyone on any given week? Yes, that will take awhile, if ever, and will probably take some luck. Too many sharks in the water these days, back then we were almost swimming alone. Hopefully the move to the ACC takes Rutgers and UConn out of any competitive balance for recruits.

To get to a level of being a perennial bowl team, 7-8 win seasons over the 13 game (with bowl) season? We're obviously not far off from there, but the 9 game ACC schedule and our usually tough non conference schedule will make that harder to maintain.

 

[SUFan44]

Looking at number won't give you much of an understanding. In 1984, we had juniors and seniors that were recruited as the Dome opened in 1980. You could see the steady progress on the field, even though the record didn't show it including beating Nebraska in the Dome.

Marrone will be here 4 or 5 more years at a minimum.

I haven't seen these "noticeable changes" except for the swan dive we took at the end of last season. I'd say that was noticeable.

I take issue with this post. You say "you could see the steady progress on the field, even though the record didn't show it including beating Nebraska in the Dome."

Well, I would actually argue that aside from the final few games this year - with a team that was inexperienced on D and lacking any type of real game-breaker on O, not to mention ravaged by injuries to key positions in the secondary - you CAN see progress being made.

We looked exponentially better in Marrone's first year than we did in GRob's last, even though the record didn't really indicate that.

We went 8-5 and went to a bowl his second year with a ton of guys that he had started coaching the prior year.

Are there some flaws with the team? Absolutely. Do we need to improve every phase of the game? Without a doubt.

But the defeatist attitudes around here are ridiculous. Marrone is doing the best that he can do with what he's giving, things are improving every year (Manley renovations, locker room renovations, influx of capital from ACC move), we have arguably our best recruiting class (on paper/from film) in years coming in, and all anyone can talk about is the negative aspects of the program.

I love Syracuse, will always love my alma mater. But it's no wonder that schools negatively recruit against us using our fan base.

 

[OrangeMojo]

I take issue with this post. You say "you could see the steady progress on the field, even though the record didn't show it including beating Nebraska in the Dome."

Well, I would actually argue that aside from the final few games this year - with a team that was inexperienced on D and lacking any type of real game-breaker on O, not to mention ravaged by injuries to key positions in the secondary - you CAN see progress being made.

We looked exponentially better in Marrone's first year than we did in GRob's last, even though the record didn't really indicate that.

We went 8-5 and went to a bowl his second year with a ton of guys that he had started coaching the prior year.

Are there some flaws with the team? Absolutely. Do we need to improve every phase of the game? Without a doubt.

But the defeatist attitudes around here are ridiculous. Marrone is doing the best that he can do with what he's giving, things are improving every year (Manley renovations, locker room renovations, influx of capital from ACC move), we have arguably our best recruiting class (on paper/from film) in years coming in, and all anyone can talk about is the negative aspects of the program.

I love Syracuse, will always love my alma mater. But it's no wonder that schools negatively recruit against us using our fan base.

if I'm not mistaken (and I may be) Townie was beating the drum after the first ACC expansion that SU football was doomed and should seriously consider dropping down to the Patriot League and give up on D1a football altogether - I think he was one of the main proponents of that line of thinking

well, now Syracuse is in the ACC and the future of the program and its status as a D1a program is secure - so now the negative drum beat has morphed into that Syracuse can't possibly compete at the BCS level

It seems clear to me that SU isn't that far off from being competitive with most BCS level programs - an when you're at that level and you get lucky with a Robert Griffin III type recruit then anything can happen. A couple of upgrades in facilities and tweaks in coaching philosophy and SU is right there with most other BCS programs in the country.

So Townie is certainly entitled to his negative opinions, but just like in the previous version of them I continue to disagree on where it places SU in the overall landscape.

 

[DeepThrowIt]

Syracuse needs to become "sexy" again to recruits. HCDM was a conservative, safe bet hire. Syracuse is not going to be able to pump life back into the program (and fan support) until they take a risk with regards to its coach. They need to take the similar risk that Washington State, Arizona, and West Virginia have recently made. Granted Leech and RichRod had recent head coaching success so these aren't as big of a risk as they seem. However they have pumped new life and enthusiasm into those programs. That is what Syracuse needs.

It doesn't even need to be as a head coach. Look what Oregon did a number of years ago. Everyone in the buisness knew Chip Kelly was a rising star. Oregon hired him as their OC then he took over the reins. Syracuse needs to take a risk like this.

 

[GoSU96]

Syracuse needs to become "sexy" again to recruits. HCDM was a conservative, safe bet hire. Syracuse is not going to be able to pump life back into the program (and fan support) until they take a risk with regards to its coach. They need to take the similar risk that Washington State, Arizona, and West Virginia have recently made. Granted Leech and RichRod had recent head coaching success so these aren't as big of a risk as they seem. However they have pumped new life and enthusiasm into those programs. That is what Syracuse needs.

It doesn't even need to be as a head coach. Look what Oregon did a number of years ago. Everyone in the buisness knew Chip Kelly was a rising star. Oregon hired him as their OC then he took over the reins. Syracuse needs to take a risk like this.

You can't compare Arizona and West Virginia to what SU was looking at in 2008. SU had profound structural programs with the program top to bottom. Being "sexy" was the last of it's problems. The program needed to be rebuilt from scratch.

 

[SU2NASA]

Based on what I read in the "SU is a football school" thread it seems like quite a few fans who 1.) Believe that a fix isn't far off and 2.) Who think that Marrone will be fired if he doen't fix things in the next year or two.

Both of these positions are wrong

Hiring the latest hotshot isn't always the answer (Ask Michigan).

I can't speak for people that have contacts within the AD, but I do know that the administration will be holding the program to a higher level from the coaching staff this season.

And Michigan screwed up the Rodriguez hire in many, many ways that are not applicable to this situation coming from my experience with that program.

 

[Townie72]

I can't speak for people that have contacts within the AD, but I do know that the administration will be holding the program to a higher level from the coaching staff this season.

And Michigan screwed up the Rodriguez hire in many, many ways that are not applicable to this situation coming from my experience with that program.

Forgive me, but the comments you are reporting from the ADs office sound a lot like what we used to call "Execu-speak". It's stuff for external consumption that makes it appear that they are doing something.

Here's why Marrone is good for at least three or four more years.

1. It's unclear to the University hiearchy (and it should be) that they can identify, recruit and pay-for someone better. Hiring new FB coaches seems to be a crapshoot to me and I'm sure it does to the University also. The latest hot coach is outrageously expensive (usually) and they are frequently unable to translate that success in a new environment. At a minimum they re-set the rebuilding clock back to zero.
2. This would be an admission of failure on Gross's part on his second FB HC hire. And the new guy might fail too. That's a huge career risk for Gross and would expose hin as clueless in the most important thing an AD does.
3. SU, as an institution, does not like to fire coachs. We have had a handful of football head coaches since the min-1950's.
4. Things are not desperate at SU. FB is slowing down the parade, but on balance the athletic program is not in bad shape financially. And the move to the ACC means more money and makes the University less desperate.
5. In hiring Marrone they followed the template that has been successful for SU in basketball and lacrosse ...hire alumni. If they stay with that approach that even shrinks the field of candidates more.
6. It may be that changes in the environment --- the addition of all these new schools recruiting the Northeast --- mean that SU cannot ever again be what it was in the 1990's and SU needs to acclimate itself to the new reality. (I'm not saying the is true or not. I'm suggesting that this is the sort of things Universities consider)

 

[SU2NASA]

Forgive me, but the comments you are reporting from the ADs office sound a lot like what we used to call "Execu-speak". It's stuff for external consumption that makes it appear that they are doing something.

Here's why Marrone is good for at least three or four more years.

1. It's unclear to the University hiearchy (and it should be) that they can identify, recruit and pay-for someone better. Hiring new FB coaches seems to be a crapshoot to me and I'm sure it does to the University also. The latest hot coach is outrageously expensive (usually) and they are frequently unable to translate that success in a new environment. At a minimum they re-set the rebuilding clock back to zero.
2. This would be an admission of failure on Gross's part on his second FB HC hire. And the new guy might fail too. That's a huge career risk for Gross and would expose hin as clueless in the most important thing an AD does.
3. SU, as an institution, does not like to fire coachs. We have had a handful of football head coaches since the min-1950's.
4. Things are not desperate at SU. FB is slowing down the parade, but on balance the athletic program is not in bad shape financially. And the move to the ACC means more money and makes the University less desperate.
5. In hiring Marrone they followed the template that has been successful for SU in basketball and lacrosse ...hire alumni. If they stay with that approach that even shrinks the field of candidates more.
6. It may be that changes in the environment --- the addition of all these new schools recruiting the Northeast --- mean that SU cannot ever again be what it was in the 1990's and SU needs to acclimate itself to the new reality. (I'm not saying the is true or not. I'm suggesting that this is the sort of things Universities consider)

My caveat was that I don't know anyone in the ADs office, and I'll use execu-speak for what I know outside of it which should be taken with the tiniest grain of salt.

 

[kingottoiii]

1. There are only 52 BCS jobs. Thats it. There are a lot of HCs out there that wish they could break into that 52. And SU is one of those 52. BTW there are 55 D1A HCs making less than Marrone. Stop acting like we are in the MAC paying bottom of the barrel money. Also the longer you keep the wrong guy the longer the rebuilding takes place. A good new HC makes things return FASTER not slower :crazy:

2. Keeping Marrone will be a failure and TGD will be fired so an AD can hire someone else. He has a better chance of keeping his job by FIXING the issue not waiting for the hammer to come down.

3. We haven't had to fire coaches because we have been lucky to have a bunch of good HCs. Who should we have fired during that time in any major sport? BTW in the non major sports SU has done a lot of firing lately.

5. Different sport. And to assume that an alumni will pan out is silly.

6. The ACC has changed things back into our favor. We have a clear advantage over RU, UConn, and Temple. Also PSU could very well take a step down without JoePa. There is no reason why with the right HC we cannot get back to the 90s.

It is clear that for whatever reason you hate the FB program. You have always taken an extremely negative view and have even rooted for going D1AA. Why ever bother post if you hate the program so much?

 

[Townie72]

Actually what I said was t

if I'm not mistaken (and I may be) Townie was beating the drum after the first ACC expansion that SU football was doomed and should seriously consider dropping down to the Patriot League and give up on D1a football altogether - I think he was one of the main proponents of that line of thinking

well, now Syracuse is in the ACC and the future of the program and its status as a D1a program is secure - so now the negative drum beat has morphed into that Syracuse can't possibly compete at the BCS level

It seems clear to me that SU isn't that far off from being competitive with most BCS level programs - an when you're at that level and you get lucky with a Robert Griffin III type recruit then anything can happen. A couple of upgrades in facilities and tweaks in coaching philosophy and SU is right there with most other BCS programs in the country.

So Townie is certainly entitled to his negative opinions, but just like in the previous version of them I continue to disagree on where it places SU in the overall landscape.

What I suggested was that among the OPTIONS THE UNIVERSITY OUGHT TO LOOK AT was de-emphasis. I had been on campus in 1972 when there was a committee that recommended de-emphasis and I imagined that things could easily get that bad again. I thought the New Big East was going to be a lot worse than it turned out being. And that the ACC was going to be a lot more successful than it turned out to be and would suck all the oxygen out of the room.

What I was thinking mightg happen to the New Big East might in fact happen to the new CUSA-II we see forming as the otehr conferences crowd it it.

My position is that SU can once again be a perennial Top 25 team with frequent good bowl appearance. But I think its going to be several more years and will need some good luck thrown in.

 

[Townie72]

Ha! So I hate the program? Right.

But you apparently hate the HC and want him fired ASAP because he has failed.

Do you also want a pass play or a reverse on every play ... or just most plays?

This is going to take years to fix.

 

[SUFan44]

My position is that SU can once again be a perennial Top 25 team with frequent good bowl appearance. But I think its going to be several more years and will need some good luck thrown in.

I think that if you feel this way, then you have to roll with the punches. All of the negative crap that you spew out about the deficiencies of the program, the way it's headed, etc., is the way a lot of people think around Syracuse. Just wish everyone would take a step back and look at it from a broad perspective, rather than over-analyzing blow-by-blow details of everything that happens.

Things have improved in the play on the field under Marrone. That can't be debated - at least I think it can't be.

Facilities are improving day-by-day. Rome was not built overnight. Everyone is doing their job to get football to where it used to (and needs to) be.

The one fault that I have with Darryl Gross is the hiring of Greg Robinson. And it may not even be the hiring, but the stubbornly sticking with him a year too long. That dug the hole even deeper, and now we are incrementally trying to dig ourselves out.

I don't think the program is as far away as people think - we were able to hang with some pretty good teams this year. Yeah, I have issues with play calling at times. The overall lack of big plays on the offensive side is also frustrating. But I'm not going to sit here and say that I know everything there is about football (as many do), and could do a better job than Marrone or even Hackett.

I know it's the offseason where people can get restless about the program and where it's headed. But I'd just, for once, like to hear an optimistic view of things rather than everyone looking at the negative side.

 

[Townie72]

I think that if you feel this way, then you have to roll with the punches. All of the negative crap that you spew out about the deficiencies of the program, the way it's headed, etc., is the way a lot of people think around Syracuse. Just wish everyone would take a step back and look at it from a broad perspective, rather than over-analyzing blow-by-blow details of everything that happens.

Things have improved in the play on the field under Marrone. That can't be debated - at least I think it can't be.

Facilities are improving day-by-day. Rome was not built overnight. Everyone is doing their job to get football to where it used to (and needs to) be.

The one fault that I have with Darryl Gross is the hiring of Greg Robinson. And it may not even be the hiring, but the stubbornly sticking with him a year too long. That dug the hole even deeper, and now we are incrementally trying to dig ourselves out.

I don't think the program is as far away as people think - we were able to hang with some pretty good teams this year. Yeah, I have issues with play calling at times. The overall lack of big plays on the offensive side is also frustrating. But I'm not going to sit here and say that I know everything there is about football (as many do), and could do a better job than Marrone or even Hackett.

I know it's the offseason where people can get restless about the program and where it's headed. But I'd just, for once, like to hear an optimistic view of things rather than everyone looking at the negative side.

What negative crap am I spewing? I was curious about how long people thought it was going to take to get back to where we were in the 1990's? I think it will take a while ... because when I have watched games --- thats what I see.

I'm am using my experience watching SU in the 70's and 80's. And during that period we made some advances followed by some setacks. One of my favorite all time SU teams was the 79 team with Hurley, Monk,and Joe Morris. But that upward trajectory didn't last as we slipped back in the next few years.

So, who's negative?:

I like DM and want him to stay... I'm not hollering "Fire the Coach".
I'm willing to let the coaches call the offensive plays ... I'm not there and I don't see what they see.
I think a Facilities arms race is the wrong strategy for SU. I've been in Maryland's new FB facility. Impressive and it hasn't led to a metamorphasis there.
I think the Dome is great ... I'm not lobbying for a new outdoor stadium.
I'm positive about the ACC ... I just wish we had gone instead of VT.
I have been negative about the New Big East and have considered it a ticket to football oblivion eventually.

 

[kingottoiii]

I was curious about how long people thought it was going to take to get back to where we were in the 1990's? I think it will take a while ... because when I have watched games --- thats what I see.

We were not all that great in the mid and late 90s. So it shouldn't take that long. We benefited from playing 3 cupcakes in the BE and a down Miami team. We finished in the Top 15 zero times from 1993-1999. And only one of those season did we finish in the Top 20 in both polls. You really think ONE Top 20 finish in 7 years will take a long time to achieve? We weren't a talented team top to bottom. We had good teams during that span but not great. There were a lot of holes. But our O system, coaching, and QB play masked a lot of those deficiencies. The fact that thus far we have used a Pro style system which requires talent is worrisome. But if one of the young QBs pans out, we could have the program back to Top 25 caliber within the next 3 years.

 

[rrlbees]

Ha! So I hate the program? Right.

But you apparently hate the HC and want him fired ASAP because he has failed.

Do you also want a pass play or a reverse on every play ... or just most plays?

This is going to take years to fix.

Define fix.

 

[rrlbees]

SU had profound structural programs with the program top to bottom. Being "sexy" was the last of it's problems. The program needed to be rebuilt from scratch.

If it has to be rebuilt from scratch, then it must have been needed to be rebuilt from scratch for a long long time. So why now is the concern facilities, new training room equipment, a practice facility, more and bigger donors, etc? Those things were barely mentioned 5-6 years ago and it was only wins and losses. What changed? Nothing except the coach. Marrone has to win, just like any coach. This rebuild from scratch and profound structural problems is an excuse to ignore the wins and losses. Year 4 and no bowl equals failure. I bet he would agree.

 

[SU2NASA]

We were not all that great in the mid and late 90s. So it shouldn't take that long. We benefited from playing 3 cupcakes in the BE and a down Miami team. We finished in the Top 15 zero times from 1993-1999. And only one of those season did we finish in the Top 20 in both polls. You really think ONE Top 20 finish in 7 years will take a long time to achieve? We weren't a talented team top to bottom. We had good teams during that span but not great. There were a lot of holes. But our O system, coaching, and QB play masked a lot of those deficiencies. The fact that thus far we have used a Pro style system which requires talent is worrisome. But if one of the young QBs pans out, we could have the program back to Top 25 caliber within the next 3 years.

We want to three BCS-level bowl games in the 90s. That's incredible for a school of our size.

 

[kcsu]

If it has to be rebuilt from scratch, then it must have been needed to be rebuilt from scratch for a long long time. So why now is the concern facilities, new training room equipment, a practice facility, more and bigger donors, etc? Those things were barely mentioned 5-6 years ago and it was only wins and losses. What changed? Nothing except the coach. Marrone has to win, just like any coach. This rebuild from scratch and profound structural problems is an excuse to ignore the wins and losses. Year 4 and no bowl equals failure. I bet he would agree.

Agreed 4 losses and he is out. 5 good wins he gets next year 6 or more good wins Doug gets an extension

 

[SUFan44]

If it has to be rebuilt from scratch, then it must have been needed to be rebuilt from scratch for a long long time. So why now is the concern facilities, new training room equipment, a practice facility, more and bigger donors, etc? Those things were barely mentioned 5-6 years ago and it was only wins and losses. What changed? Nothing except the coach. Marrone has to win, just like any coach. This rebuild from scratch and profound structural problems is an excuse to ignore the wins and losses. Year 4 and no bowl equals failure. I bet he would agree.

Actually, when Robinson was hired wasn't the Dome given a facelift and field turf added?

These things take time. GRob was given more than P, Marrone is being given more than GRob. But with GRob, the product on the field was not showing any sign of getting better.

Yes, I agree that if we are awful next year then it's all a moot point. But I don't think anyone can say that the product on the field is better than any of GRob's years. And that's even with the tank job at the end of the year last year.