How would you compare this team to the 10-11 Orange...

[orangefan13]

That team was a 3 seed in march.

Senior - Rick Jackson > Jr. Dajuan Coleman
Freshmen -Keita > Jr Obokoh
So Southerland =or< Lydon
Freshmen Fair < Freshmen Malachi
Junior Joseph < Senior Gbinije
Soph Triche =or< Senior Cooney
Jr Scoop >or= Soph Kaleb.
Dion > Howard (Dions last 7 of the season give him a edge he averaged 9ppg.)

 

[skurey]

Worse

 

[PoppyHart]

by height

 

[AZOrange]

I don't think we had the stretch guys or the versatility on that team that we do here.

 

[Brooky03]

Senior Jackson is probably quite a bit better than banged up Coleman. PG-SF is pretty much a wash and Roberson has the advantage at PF. I think Joseph will be a better scoring punch off the bench than freshman Waiters was. Sophomore (Junior) Obokoh is basically the same thing as freshman Keita, and Lydon should match Fair as a freshman.

Gbinije will provide more of a scoring punch than Jardine did but won't distribute as well. Cooney's already produced at sophomore Triche's level. Malachi is the biggest question mark, but he could certainly match Joseph's offensive production and rebounding.

 

[billsin01]

That team was a 3 seed in march.

Senior - Rick Jackson > Jr. Dajuan Coleman
Freshmen -Keita > Jr Obokoh
So Southerland =or< Lydon
Freshmen Fair < Freshmen Malachi
Junior Joseph < Senior Gbinije
Soph Triche =or< Senior Cooney
Jr Scoop >or= Soph Kaleb.
Dion > Howard (Dions last 7 of the season give him a edge he averaged 9ppg.)

Can't really comment since I haven't seen the frosh, but I do think both Jackson and scoop fall into the underrated category here on this board. RJ, for example, averaged a double-double per game (never happens here) on 59% shooting. He also managed to play phenomenal defense generally (not just the 2.5 bpg) while staying on the floor for close to 36 mpg. Really hard to do particularly against a big east that was brutal that year, iirc. He also dished out more than 2 assists per game -- not a huge amount but a pretty good passer for a big guy.

Scoop infuriated people with occasionally shaky decision-making and shot selection, etc. But he still put up 12 ppg, 6 asp, 2:1 TO ratio, and shot 36% from 3 (which compared to some of the numbers we saw from Triche and MCW in ensuing years basically made him look like a marksman). But the bottom line on Scoop is he got put in a tough spot -- RJ was a really solid offensive player but not a go-to guy, per se. Joseph was supposed to be that guy after a huge leap his sophomore year, but even though he added a 3-point shot he never quite took those reins. Everyone was fired up about Waiters and he eventually became a complete stud, but he spent much of his freshman year being out of shape (debatable) and a whiny, selfish prima dona (not really debatable as a freshman -- though we were all freshman once and we were all probably insufferable). And it wasn't going to be triche.

Anyway, I always felt people hated scoop at the end of games but unfortunately this team didn't have another end of game option -- so Scoop got put there and it didn't go particularly well. Having said that I loved the way he handled the ball and pushed the floor. He created shots for others and was a threat offensively.

Point is, for me, Kaleb would need a really big leap to get anywhere near scoop as a junior. Not impossible but it would have to be a significant transformation. And I don't think DC has a prayer of being mentioned in RJ's category this year. So while you acknowledge that RJ is likely to be better, my concern is that Coleman will really, really, really struggle. And, while we're on the topic, Keita logged close to 15 mpg -- He had no offense and was slight, but you don't play those minutes unless JB trusts you on defense. Do people think Chino -- even with a hobbled, potentially winded DC and no depth behind him -- will get even close to 15 mpg?

 

[SoBristol]

Can't really comment since I haven't seen the frosh, but I do think both Jackson and scoop fall into the underrated category here on this board. …...

.. And, while we're on the topic, Keita logged close to 15 mpg -- He had no offense and was slight, but you don't play those minutes unless JB trusts you on defense. Do people think Chino -- even with a hobbled, potentially winded DC and no depth behind him -- will get even close to 15 mpg?

I agree with most of your post, but wanted to highlight the value of Keita on the defensive end. Chino might well log 15 mpg, because Coleman will get in foul trouble. And Chino will occupy some space and get a few boards. But he is still raw and nowhere close to Keita as a defensive center. Keita was 2 or 3 inches taller, a better shot blocker, a better defensive rebounder, and much more savvy about positioning. There were reasons why JB had trust in him.

 

[Brooky03]

Can't really comment since I haven't seen the frosh, but I do think both Jackson and scoop fall into the underrated category here on this board. RJ, for example, averaged a double-double per game (never happens here) on 59% shooting. He also managed to play phenomenal defense generally (not just the 2.5 bpg) while staying on the floor for close to 36 mpg. Really hard to do particularly against a big east that was brutal that year, iirc. He also dished out more than 2 assists per game -- not a huge amount but a pretty good passer for a big guy.

Scoop infuriated people with occasionally shaky decision-making and shot selection, etc. But he still put up 12 ppg, 6 asp, 2:1 TO ratio, and shot 36% from 3 (which compared to some of the numbers we saw from Triche and MCW in ensuing years basically made him look like a marksman). But the bottom line on Scoop is he got put in a tough spot -- RJ was a really solid offensive player but not a go-to guy, per se. Joseph was supposed to be that guy after a huge leap his sophomore year, but even though he added a 3-point shot he never quite took those reins. Everyone was fired up about Waiters and he eventually became a complete stud, but he spent much of his freshman year being out of shape (debatable) and a whiny, selfish prima dona (not really debatable as a freshman -- though we were all freshman once and we were all probably insufferable). And it wasn't going to be triche.

Anyway, I always felt people hated scoop at the end of games but unfortunately this team didn't have another end of game option -- so Scoop got put there and it didn't go particularly well. Having said that I loved the way he handled the ball and pushed the floor. He created shots for others and was a threat offensively.

Point is, for me, Kaleb would need a really big leap to get anywhere near scoop as a junior. Not impossible but it would have to be a significant transformation. And I don't think DC has a prayer of being mentioned in RJ's category this year. So while you acknowledge that RJ is likely to be better, my concern is that Coleman will really, really, really struggle. And, while we're on the topic, Keita logged close to 15 mpg -- He had no offense and was slight, but you don't play those minutes unless JB trusts you on defense. Do people think Chino -- even with a hobbled, potentially winded DC and no depth behind him -- will get even close to 15 mpg?

I know OP made the comparison of Scoop and Joseph, but Joseph is probably the wrong guy from this team to compare to Scoop.

 

[igor]

mal r is the best player at su since melo. i think collectively u r short changing dc jr. he's a freaking load. we're ready and poised to make a run.

 

[billsin01]

I agree with most of your post, but wanted to highlight the value of Keita on the defensive end. Chino might well log 15 mpg, because Coleman will get in foul trouble. And Chino will occupy some space and get a few boards. But he is still raw and nowhere close to Keita as a defensive center. Keita was 2 or 3 inches taller, a better shot blocker, a better defensive rebounder, and much more savvy about positioning. There were reasons why JB had trust in him.

I agree on Keita. Was always a fan of his hustle and defense. I actually don't think you'll see Chino logging even close to those types of minutes. I could be wrong and we just end up being desperate, but I'd guess they'll get as many minutes out of DC as possible, then go with Chino in games we're winning easily, but go with some sort of lineup with Lydon at C or whatever in games that actually matter.

 

[pfister1]

Can't really comment since I haven't seen the frosh, but I do think both Jackson and scoop fall into the underrated category here on this board. RJ, for example, averaged a double-double per game (never happens here) on 59% shooting. He also managed to play phenomenal defense generally (not just the 2.5 bpg) while staying on the floor for close to 36 mpg. Really hard to do particularly against a big east that was brutal that year, iirc. He also dished out more than 2 assists per game -- not a huge amount but a pretty good passer for a big guy.

Scoop infuriated people with occasionally shaky decision-making and shot selection, etc. But he still put up 12 ppg, 6 asp, 2:1 TO ratio, and shot 36% from 3 (which compared to some of the numbers we saw from Triche and MCW in ensuing years basically made him look like a marksman). But the bottom line on Scoop is he got put in a tough spot -- RJ was a really solid offensive player but not a go-to guy, per se. Joseph was supposed to be that guy after a huge leap his sophomore year, but even though he added a 3-point shot he never quite took those reins. Everyone was fired up about Waiters and he eventually became a complete stud, but he spent much of his freshman year being out of shape (debatable) and a whiny, selfish prima dona (not really debatable as a freshman -- though we were all freshman once and we were all probably insufferable). And it wasn't going to be triche.

Anyway, I always felt people hated scoop at the end of games but unfortunately this team didn't have another end of game option -- so Scoop got put there and it didn't go particularly well. Having said that I loved the way he handled the ball and pushed the floor. He created shots for others and was a threat offensively.

Point is, for me, Kaleb would need a really big leap to get anywhere near scoop as a junior. Not impossible but it would have to be a significant transformation. And I don't think DC has a prayer of being mentioned in RJ's category this year. So while you acknowledge that RJ is likely to be better, my concern is that Coleman will really, really, really struggle. And, while we're on the topic, Keita logged close to 15 mpg -- He had no offense and was slight, but you don't play those minutes unless JB trusts you on defense. Do people think Chino -- even with a hobbled, potentially winded DC and no depth behind him -- will get even close to 15 mpg?

I think one thing that people are under analyzing is the number of minutes that DCII will be able to play. Even if he stays healthy, how many minutes a game can we really expect to get from him. Presumably he won't be a guy that can go 40 minutes per game and rest during the in game stoppages. Beyond the number of bench minutes he needs to stay fresh, will he be able to stay out of foul trouble? Most of our centers don't acquire that ability until they've played in the system for a number of years. I am not sure that Coleman has the game experience to play defense in the zone and avoid foul trouble. My biggest fear for this season is persistent DCII foul trouble because there is no real backup plan at center.

 

[reedny]

I think one thing that people are under analyzing is the number of minutes that DCII will be able to play. Even if he stays healthy, how many minutes a game can we really expect to get from him. Presumably he won't be a guy that can go 40 minutes per game and rest during the in game stoppages. Beyond the number of bench minutes he needs to stay fresh, will he be able to stay out of foul trouble? Most of our centers don't acquire that ability until they've played in the system for a number of years. I am not sure that Coleman has the game experience to play defense in the zone and avoid foul trouble. My biggest fear for this season is persistent DCII foul trouble because there is no real backup plan at center.

I think I'm one of the "under-analyzers". Pre-season, I had DC2 at about 25 mpg. He might exceed that in some games .. since he looks very good physically. But his wind/endurance (and production) are just parts of the whole picture. As you point out, fouls are also a factor that could impact minutes. If ACC teams get in the lane (as they did almost at will last year), Coleman will pick up fouls. There's no way around it. And if that happens, we're going to have to rely on Chino and/or Lydon in the post ... obviously undesirable. This is why "thin up front" could be an issue (and why perimeter defense is so important).

 

[SoBristol]

I expect JB will use a press, and Lydon as the final line of defense, in some situations when Coleman has to sit. It off-sets the advantages that a big opposing center or big PF might otherwise have in the half court.

 

[Brooky03]

I think one thing that people are under analyzing is the number of minutes that DCII will be able to play. Even if he stays healthy, how many minutes a game can we really expect to get from him. Presumably he won't be a guy that can go 40 minutes per game and rest during the in game stoppages. Beyond the number of bench minutes he needs to stay fresh, will he be able to stay out of foul trouble? Most of our centers don't acquire that ability until they've played in the system for a number of years. I am not sure that Coleman has the game experience to play defense in the zone and avoid foul trouble. My biggest fear for this season is persistent DCII foul trouble because there is no real backup plan at center.

I expect 30mpg

 

[billsin01]

I expect 30mpg

That would be awesome but seems high to me based on what we've seen. Now if DC has stepped his game up, that's awesome, but what we've seen in the past is a guy who has a tough time challenging without fouling. I would be pretty surprised if he's over 25-26 mpg.

 

[Knicks411]

This should definitely be a team which plays at least some man to man in the half court, right? We've got more positional versatility in the lineup than probably we've had in a long time, and we're short some quality bigs.

I'm not holding my breath on that, but that's probably the play considering the personnel.

edit: mixing metaphors

 

[igor]

dc two is te best passing big man since the original dc

 

[Sgt Cuse]

I agree on Keita. Was always a fan of his hustle and defense. I actually don't think you'll see Chino logging even close to those types of minutes. I could be wrong and we just end up being desperate, but I'd guess they'll get as many minutes out of DC as possible, then go with Chino in games we're winning easily, but go with some sort of lineup with Lydon at C or whatever in games that actually matter.

C'mon Keita as a frosh was not pretty. We were desperate.

I can easily see Chino getting Keita minutes. He is a junior center, a semi-smart guy with 3 years in the system. He is a guy who I can see having a firm understanding and acceptance of his role (he seemed recruited to be the next Keita, but not rushed into action).

If Chino can show a defensive presence I think we have the firepower elsewhere that can give him time on the floor.

 

[two3zone]

C'mon Keita as a frosh was not pretty. We were desperate.

I can easily see Chino getting Keita minutes. He is a junior center, a semi-smart guy with 3 years in the system. He is a guy who I can see having a firm understanding and acceptance of his role (he seemed recruited to be the next Keita, but not rushed into action).

If Chino can show a defensive presence I think we have the firepower elsewhere that can give him time on the floor.

Keita as a freshman wasn't pretty, but Chinoso as a Jr. isn't any better.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Keita as a freshman wasn't pretty, but Chinoso as a Jr. isn't any better.

Trying not to be mean, but he's worse. Keita played 500 minutes as a freshman. I recall he had a game where he was dominant defensively at UConn, and as bad as Baye was offensively, he was pretty good defensively. I'm not sure Chino will ever be good defensively.

 

[two3zone]

Trying not to be mean, but he's worse. Keita played 500 minutes as a freshman. I recall he had a game where he was dominant defensively at UConn, and as bad as Baye was offensively, he was pretty good defensively. I'm not sure Chino will ever be good defensively.

I agree with you 100%. BMK got away with poor basketball skills as a freshman because of his athleticism, length and speed. I'm not a huge BMK fan but he got down the court better than any big I've ever seen in orange. All that said, you're right, Chin isn't even close to that. I'm not sure why I see everybody comparing the two, I'm assuming its because they're both from Africa but their games do not resemble each other at all.

 

[billsin01]

C'mon Keita as a frosh was not pretty. We were desperate.

I can easily see Chino getting Keita minutes. He is a junior center, a semi-smart guy with 3 years in the system. He is a guy who I can see having a firm understanding and acceptance of his role (he seemed recruited to be the next Keita, but not rushed into action).

If Chino can show a defensive presence I think we have the firepower elsewhere that can give him time on the floor.

I don't know much about chino's game but I do know keita's game as a frosh was essentially what it was as a senior (the per game numbers including minutes bear this out). Dude was about length and quickness, getting down he floor and setting the tone defensively with smarts and hustle. Does Chino have the ability to do this?

And as far as desperation -- JB tends to just completely redo his lineup and do away with the C position altogether. I think Baye and Fab combined for like 20 mins total in two NCAA games that year and that included an easy round 1 win.

I hope that chino surprises but I just can't help but feel he's got a long way to go to earn JB's trust in big games. I would say the one caveat is if DC is horrible and chino is something other than a complete non-factor. At that point maybe he approaches those numbers, but that possibility feels remote.

 

[billsin01]

I agree with you 100%. BMK got away with poor basketball skills as a freshman because of his athleticism, length and speed. I'm not a huge BMK fan but he got down the court better than any big I've ever seen in orange. All that said, you're right, Chin isn't even close to that. I'm not sure why I see everybody comparing the two, I'm assuming its because they're both from Africa but their games do not resemble each other at all.

And hustle. The kid worked hard and had some -- maybe not a ton -- but some nice skill defensively in this system.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

I don't know much about chino's game but I do know keita's game as a frosh was essentially what it was as a senior (the per game numbers including minutes bear this out). Dude was about length and quickness, getting down he floor and setting the tone defensively with smarts and hustle. Does Chino have the ability to do this?

And as far as desperation -- JB tends to just completely redo his lineup and do away with the C position altogether. I think Baye and Fab combined for like 20 mins total in two NCAA games that year and that included an easy round 1 win.

I hope that chino surprises but I just can't help but feel he's got a long way to go to earn JB's trust in big games. I would say the one caveat is if DC is horrible and chino is something other than a complete non-factor. At that point maybe he approaches those numbers, but that possibility feels remote.

Several points: First, BMK improved in his time here and he improved defensively. Just because his minutes didn't increase doesn't mean he didn't improve. The hardest position to learn defensively in the zone is the center.

Secondly, it is very rare for JB to go without a real center. And I count RJ and Rak as centers even though JB put them out at PF at times.

Third, the hoped for usage of Chino is not to be the go-to guy at the end, but instead is allow JB to have DC2 at the end of games. I agree Chino has a ways to go to get JB's trust for PT in big games, but then, so do Roberson or Lydon when it comes to the backup center duties.

 

[orangefan13]

I know OP made the comparison of Scoop and Joseph, but Joseph is probably the wrong guy from this team to compare to Scoop.

agree, It was a rushed post. even left off roberson.

I do see Gbinije as our best guard defender though and that is why he is playing guard, I see little difference in him playing point vs shooting. That and malachi richardson is a true 3 and we don't have a board eater at center for Gbinije and Richardson to be on the wings together.