I guess when your players can't shoot, and you have no size...

[RF2044]

Well, that's sort of the point, isn't it? If he doesn't fit the system, there's no use for him on the team.

You took a casual comment that I made a bit too literally, if that's your point.

As for ostensibly not fitting the system, he fits in all ways but one. This team lacks a hard-nosed, aggressive power forward. A blue collar player like Crowder fits the bill. I didn't say that Boeheim should have recruited him, or that I wish he was on our team. Just that given how rebounding seems to be our main achilles heel, that a player with his tenacity would be an asset. And with his offensive versatility, he wouldn't have an issue fitting into our system.

I agree that he doesn't have the length at 4 that Boeheim prefers [the lone measurable that doesn't fit the system]--he's certainly no Hak. But we spend a lot of time with two 6-7-ish guys playing the wings in the zone. Crowder is about their size [and even given your point above about him being 2 inches shorter, he's one of the top, most effective 4'2 in our league--that allegedly 6-5 guy had 8 rebounds against us today and hurt us all game on the offensive boards]. And given that he has no problems playing man-2-man for Marquette or moving his feet to cover guards on high switches, I don't think that he would have a problem spacially covering his assignment in zone.

If you don't feel the same way, then I'm cool agreeing to disagree.

 

[upperdeck]

this is what bball is turning into.. go to any local hs GAME. kids doing so much lifting for fball and those kids play bball and now its all how much banging can you get away with.. look at loose balls now. people dive all over each other and nothing gets called its just a rugby scrum. same for rebounding it used to be you boxed out and if you were boxed out you moved your feet to get around.. now you just push and push and the strongest guy wins.

 

[KingOtis]

You took a casual comment that I made a bit too literally, if that's your point.

As for ostensibly not fitting the system, he fits in all ways but one. This team lacks a hard-nosed, aggressive power forward. A blue collar player like Crowder fits the bill. I didn't say that Boeheim should have recruited him, or that I wish he was on our team. Just that given how rebounding seems to be our main achilles heel, that a player with his tenacity would be an asset. And with his offensive versatility, he wouldn't have an issue fitting into our system.

I agree that he doesn't have the length at 4 that Boeheim prefers [the lone measurable that doesn't fit the system]--he's certainly no Hak. But we spend a lot of time with two 6-7-ish guys playing the wings in the zone. Crowder is about their size [and even given your point above about him being 2 inches shorter, he's one of the top, most effective 4'2 in our league--that allegedly 6-5 guy had 8 rebounds against us today and hurt us all game on the offensive boards]. And given that he has no problems playing man-2-man for Marquette or moving his feet to cover guards on high switches, I don't think that he would have a problem spacially covering his assignment in zone.

If you don't feel the same way, then I'm cool agreeing to disagree.

Uh, if it was a casual comment, why are you still arguing the point? Saying you have no doubt we would win a national championship with him on the team doesn't come off as casual.

He's not a Syracuse guy, plain and simple. Saying he's about the same size as Fair and Joseph is no different than saying he's about the same size as Josh Pace and Paul Harris. Our defense was always more effective when those two were playing SG as opposed to SF.

 

[rrlbees]

It worked out for us, but how about the pump fake Triche made and the guy landed on his back? No call. Thankfully Triche reset and hit the 3. Two minutes earlier, Triche drives the lane and has an open lane to the basket and someone breathed on him and they called a foul. Not the time we wanted one there. Refs made no sense the 1st half and the first 6-7 minutes of the 2nd half.Dion taking a hip check to be forced out was pretty comical too. And as someone mentioned, the guy mugging Triche going over his back to keep a rebound alive. The drunks couldn't see straight today.

 

[RF2044]

Uh, if it was a casual comment, why are you still arguing the point? Saying you have no doubt we would win a national championship with him on the team doesn't come off as casual.

He's not a Syracuse guy, plain and simple. Saying he's about the same size as Fair and Joseph is no different than saying he's about the same size as Josh Pace and Paul Harris. Our defense was always more effective when those two were playing SG as opposed to SF.

Uh...go back and read what I was responding to originally. The OP was about hating Crowder. If it makes you feel better, then insert the word "like" before Crowder--because that's what I meant. I gladly acknowledge that it was hyperbole--sorry that you took it so literally.

 

[KingOtis]

Uh...go back and read what I was responding to originally. The OP was about hating Crowder. If it makes you feel better, then insert the word "like" before Crowder--because that's what I meant. I gladly acknowledge that it was hyperbole--sorry that you took it so literally.

No confusion here. Your original intent was clear. Just as it's clear now that you're backpedaling.

Why not just acknowledge that a 6-6 PF will never wear orange so long as Boeheim is the head coach? This back-and-forth should have ended a long time ago.

 

[RoysRunts]

Marquette is the new Pitt/Cincy. Their guys don't even look like basketball players. They look like DE's, linebackers and defensive backs. Play like em too.

We easily played our absolute worst half of basketball all season, and they made much of their run when Fab was on the bench. We stunk there for a stretch. Could not make any shots (whether near of far), could not defend, and could not rebound. We also threw the ball away a few times. Yet, we held it together and beat a very physical team. Last year's team loses this game by 10. I firmly believe that.

Overall this was a horrendous shooting performance for us, even in the first half. If we had made the shots we typically do, we would have been up by 35 at the half. No joke. Marquette was lucky the lead was only 18.

Back to topic. I do not like these types of games where both teams are in the bonus by the 12 min mark of the half. At one point I couldn't believe there were still 11 minutes to go in the game. It just dragged. I won't miss these types of slugfests one bit. It'll be nice to leave thug ball like this behind when we get to the ACC.

Isn't Pitt going to the ACC!

 

[zeekay]

Isn't Pitt going to the ACC!

ACC refs don't call "physical" games. They actually call pushes/shoves as fouls. In fact they often go to the opposite extreme and call phantom shoves as fouls (see Duke flops). If Pitt plays how they played in the BE, they will compete with BC for the doormat status. Both recruit roughly the same quality talent (rankings wise).

 

[NKR1978]

Besides Georgetown, remember the old Providence teams and some of the Pitt teams from the past? Clutch push and grab defense.

Don't forget Butler. Clutch and grab defense, and then when that fails, fall down and draw the "charge."

 

[MyMeloMyMan]

Just like pitt...will never win a thing

except knocking us out of a sweet 16 birth last year. That sure felt like something after the season was over last year.

 

[longislandcuse]

Marquette is probably my new official most hated team to play against. They are such an aggravating watch. All energy and rough play, which when you lose your edge up 20 points allows a second half like last night to snowball and frustrate you as a team...glad we kept our cool and made plays at the end.

 

[NKR1978]

Just like pitt...will never win a thing, and buzz needs to invest in some better deodorant...looking like ewing out there

He had sweat stains on TOP of his shoulders. Never seen that before.

 

[RF2044]

No confusion here. Your original intent was clear. Just as it's clear now that you're backpedaling.

Why not just acknowledge that a 6-6 PF will never wear orange so long as Boeheim is the head coach? This back-and-forth should have ended a long time ago.

KingOtis [not sure what your handle was on the other board], I've really enjoyed your commentary of late on this forum--especially on the Fine mess board.

Not sure why you are being so combative on this issue. Lighten up.

Secondly, it wasn't backpedaling at all--it was hyperbole, spoken in the aftermath of an exciting win. But since you seem intent on splitting hairs, I'll bite. The notion that a 6-6 forward wouldn't play on the back end of the zone and occasionally man the PF position is historically false. There have been many instances when we've had undersized guys playing the back line of the zone at either forward position. Guys like Pace and Harris played there at roughly 6-4. Far from ideal, but it happened. Dave Johnson played out of position at PF at roughly 6-5 / 6-6. We sported a "formidable" forward tandem of Shumpert and Duany there for the better portion of one season, both of whom stood around 6-6--which of them was the "PF?" And the great John Wallace--one of my all time favorites--was about 6-7--and he played alongside a guy in the pivot who wasn't much taller than 6-7 himself--not exactly the ideal height for a Syracuse center. Hell, we played two 6-7 forwards primarily on the back line in Johnson and Joseph during the terrific 09-10 season. This year, we play a lot of Joseph and Fair at the wing positions--again, both 6-7. The notion that we'd never see it is false. In fact, 6-6 players have been manning the back end of the zone ever since Boeheim began using it as a staple...and some of them even played PF.

Lastly, to your point about 6-6 PF--people get too hung up on position labeling. Boeheim plays combinations of players that he trusts irrespective of what their natural position might be--which is why we see Johnson / Joseph and Joseph / Fair pairings [both natually small forwards]. Crowder might be 6-6, but he's a good defender, a tough low post scorer and a tenacious rebounder--the latter two happen to be this team's lone relative weaknesses. He also has the requisite athleticism to run the floor, cover ground defensively, as well as the offensive versatility to fit into our system. Frankly, it's hard NOT to imagine him being a solid contributor in our system. Suggesting that Crowder, an all conference candidate, wouldn't play here due to being 6-6 alone tells me that you are focusing on the wrong attribute.

 

[orangecuse]

Huge respect for how Marquette plays especially with what they have. Wish our football team could play 60 like they play 40.

Fair needs to learn to play weak side zone D, Melo (no blocks) needs to man up beyond taking charges. We blinked a bit for awhile in the second half. Not a bitch and moan - this team's first 17 games has been the most impressive I have ever seen - but complaining about how Marquette plays reminds me of Desko complaining how the Terps played...moments after losing to them.

Whatever it takes.

Completely agree. They play to their strengths and get into their opponents heads...it obviously worked in the 2nd half. It's the opponents responsibility to take them out of their comfort zone and dictate tempo. Maybe our guys just need to me mentally tougher when we're playing teams that play this style...a la Pitt. Not a coincidence that we repeatedly struggle against these type foes...Blaming the refs isn't going to change a thing...it hasn't in the past...

 

[Ghost]

It worked out for us, but how about the pump fake Triche made and the guy landed on his back? No call. Thankfully Triche reset and hit the 3. Two minutes earlier, Triche drives the lane and has an open lane to the basket and someone breathed on him and they called a foul. Not the time we wanted one there. Refs made no sense the 1st half and the first 6-7 minutes of the 2nd half.Dion taking a hip check to be forced out was pretty comical too. And as someone mentioned, the guy mugging Triche going over his back to keep a rebound alive. The drunks couldn't see straight today.

They had two calls like that in the second half - one was on Triche where it was just a slight bump (barely a foul, if a foul at all) and the call stopped an open drive to the rim, and another one on the other side of the court, but I don't recall who that was on that stopped another open lane to the basket.

They did give us the continuation on KJo's dunk though...

 

[longislandcuse]

They had two calls like that in the second half - one was on Triche where it was just a slight bump (barely a foul, if a foul at all) and the call stopped an open drive to the rim, and another one on the other side of the court, but I don't recall who that was on that stopped another open lane to the basket.

They did give us the continuation on KJo's dunk though...

But no continuation on Scoop

 

[Ghost]

Their players just push and shove every possession daring the referees to call everything...which they won't. CJ Fair got clobbered twice on the same play early in the game...no call. Ridiculous.

Plus, they have Crowder (i think it's Crowder, not Odom) that has to scream "AND 1" on every shot near the hoop and falls down even prior to contact or if no contact occurs at all.

 

[RF2044]

Blaming the refs isn't going to change a thing...

I agree. But I'd like to point out that there is a difference between blaming the refs and complaining about the refs being out to get your team, and pointing out that officiating is bad.

 

[LennX6]

You took a casual comment that I made a bit too literally, if that's your point.

As for ostensibly not fitting the system, he fits in all ways but one. This team lacks a hard-nosed, aggressive power forward. A blue collar player like Crowder fits the bill. I didn't say that Boeheim should have recruited him, or that I wish he was on our team. Just that given how rebounding seems to be our main achilles heel, that a player with his tenacity would be an asset. And with his offensive versatility, he wouldn't have an issue fitting into our system.

I agree that he doesn't have the length at 4 that Boeheim prefers [the lone measurable that doesn't fit the system]--he's certainly no Hak. But we spend a lot of time with two 6-7-ish guys playing the wings in the zone. Crowder is about their size [and even given your point above about him being 2 inches shorter, he's one of the top, most effective 4'2 in our league--that allegedly 6-5 guy had 8 rebounds against us today and hurt us all game on the offensive boards]. And given that he has no problems playing man-2-man for Marquette or moving his feet to cover guards on high switches, I don't think that he would have a problem spacially covering his assignment in zone.

If you don't feel the same way, then I'm cool agreeing to disagree.

I was thinking your way during the game. Crowder downright scares me as an opponent. I bet he is only 6'4" and although he is not "fat" he plays "wide". Personally I believe MU underutilizes him.

 

[MyMeloMyMan]

I find it funny how the "pretty" teams fans complain about any physical defense. Pitt, Marquette, Louisville. This isn't the 1950's folks.

I imagine Buzz Williams and Rick Pitino hate our style as much as we hate theirs.

If our talent could go 40 mins as hard as Marq's do, we would be unbeatable.

 

[orangecuse]

I agree. But I'd like to point out that there is a difference between blaming the refs and complaining about the refs being out to get your team, and pointing out that officiating is bad.

Semantics...whether the word blaming is used vs. complaining, etc. Questioning a call here or there is commonplace and a part of every game played. A subjective bad call for one side is a good call from the other vantage point. It's a losing agrument, as it's the nature of the beast. Stating/complaining that the refs are out to get your team is, well, just groundless, unless of course, you have proof of this...

 

[RF2044]

Semantics...whether the word blaming is used vs. complaining, etc. Questioning a call here or there is commonplace and a part of every game played. A subjective bad call for one side is a good call from the other vantage point. It's a losing agrument, as it's the nature of the beast. Stating/complaining that the refs are out to get your team is, well, just groundless, unless of course, you have proof of this...

I'll disagree on one key point: officials like Higgins are consistently terrible. Games that they officiate often have head scratching calls, and they often lose control over how game action unfolds. Sutomcat had a great description of this in his "my take" post yesterday.

Again, pointing out that officiating is poor as a general observation is different than complaining about calls.

 

[rrlbees]

I find it funny how the "pretty" teams fans complain about any physical defense. Pitt, Marquette, Louisville. This isn't the 1950's folks.

I imagine Buzz Williams and Rick Pitino hate our style as much as we hate theirs.

If our talent could go 40 mins as hard as Marq's do, we would be unbeatable.

Going hard is one thing, grabbing and pushing another and even another when refs ignore blatant fouls. Did the things that people mentioned in this thread not happen? I know the ones I mentioned certainly happened.

 

[All4SU]

The second was on an offensive rebound early in the second half, when Triche went up for the rebound only to get blatantly pushed out of bounds by Crowder, who then converted a point blank put-back.

Yup, that was a huge no call, when Marquette was grabbing the momentum. Right in front of Higgins too. He needed to call that one.

 

[orangecuse]

I'll disagree on one key point: officials like Higgins are consistently terrible. Games that they officiate often have head scratching calls, and they often lose control over how game action unfolds. Sutomcat had a great description of this in his "my take" post yesterday.

Again, pointing out that officiating is poor as a general observation is different than complaining about calls.

Again, it's still semantics. We could go back and forth, but it's really pointless. Consider this...isn't making a general statement that the officiating was poor, actually some type of complaint or dislikes about what specific calls may have/have not been called by officials during the course of a game?