I know most hate stall ball

[CIL]

But the UNC / Duke game is a great example of why it works. UNC up double digits with two and a half to play. Duke hits a three iirc, now UNC up 7 with about 2:20 to play.

That's a three possession game - stall ball takes a full minute and a half off the clock. Instead you get a stup charge by barnes, a turnover caused by rushing the ball up court, and a missed ft.

Just awful coaching by Roy.

 

[jekelish]

It works in the right situation when you can execute a half court offense.

Stall ball with 3+ minutes left when you're only up four and struggling to score is a bad, bad idea, however.

 

[Fjoinkay]

I'm more concerned with the lack of ball movement and penetration during the first 37 minutes of the game. If the ball stays on the perimeter and the players settle for launching 3s with average 3 point shooters they ask for problems in the final 3 minutes. Especially when they are being out-rebounded massively.

 

[pearl31]

I'm more concerned with the lack of ball movement and penetration during the first 37 minutes of the game.

Indeed.

 

[CIL]

This was intended to be a thread about Roy's hack job tonight, not about SU's ball movement.

 

[CorduroyG]

Stall ball up 10 with 3 minutes left works. Stall ball up 4 with 4 minutes left is not a recipe for success, especially for a team thats at its best playing uptempo and staying out of the half court.

 

[jekelish]

The thing that bugs me most about stall ball is that you're changing what got you the lead in the first place. To put it a different way, "dance with (what) brung you." I hate getting away from what works for supposed strategy.

 

[pearl31]

The team with the most points at the end of the game wins.
The opposing team can't score points without possession of the ball.
The fewer times the opposing team possesses the ball, the fewer times they can score points.

 

[jekelish]

If you're holding the ball for 30 seconds and rushing a bad shot, you're basically giving away a possession to a team that is going to go down and play their offense business as usual.

 

[STEVEHOLT]

stall ball works. but there is a formula that i believe SWC came up with that does an excellent job of explaining when in terms of time and score to institute it. this game did not, i believe, adhere to that formula

 

[dinno28]

I wouldn't mind if we ran 20 seconds off the clock and then start looking for a high percentage shot ... but holding the ball for 30 and then rushing a poor shot or not even getting a shot off is never a good idea ... just look at what almost happened to us and what did happen to UNC tonight... in the final 2:33 minutes UNC 0-0 shooting 2 turnovers 2 points and Duke 5-7 shooting 0 turnovers 13 points duke trailed 82-72, won 85-84 ... stall ball at it's worst

 

[zeekay]

Up 4 with 4 minutes you just can't do it against GT.

JB just goes way overboard with it when he himself coaches an up-tempo team. It swings the advantage back to them. It's no wonder that stall ball makes teams like GT and Butler come back to tie and/or win against us. If we stall ball someone like UNC then who cares, both teams will be out of their comfort zone not just us. But JB also does it against the WRONG teams, and with TOO MUCH time left.

The point is not "never stall ball!!!". It's a good strategy that works in certain situations. But you can't just blindly apply whenever you're up late in the second half, with no consideration for what style your opponent is playing and the score in the game.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

The team with the most points at the end of the game wins.
The opposing team can't score points without possession of the ball.
The fewer times the opposing team possesses the ball, the fewer times they can score points.

A formula this simple surely must be ignoring a great many factors.

1. This presupposes you know how many possessions there will be. -You don't.
2. This presupposes you know you will be able to continue to score, at least enough to still have more points at the end of the game. -You don't. We didn't.
3. It denies the importance of your own momentum. -We had just opened our largest lead. It's quite possible we could have expanded upon it.
4. It presupposes you have a player or players who can accept the sudden tempo and mindset change, and still be able to score in a half-court set, beginning your plays at the 12 second mark. -We tend not to be so good at this, and sometimes we get lucky. We have no Kemba Walker.

We've been playing this stall ball game for years. We've been getting away with it for years, despite the anxiety it causes. Last night, we didn't get away with it. I'm quite sure JB will claim that one failure in those years is a pretty good success ratio. JB often does/says things that defy logic. When you do them on a night when you surpass Dean Smith, the illogic tends to be accepted.

"But you can't just blindly apply whenever you're up late in the second half, with no consideration for what style your opponent is playing and the score in the game."

Dude. JB has been "blindly applying" the 2-3 zone, with no consideration for what style the opponent is playing and the score in the game. Why would a silly issue of context be of any importance now?

 

[UnderHisOwnPower]

If you're holding the ball for 30 seconds and rushing a bad shot, you're basically giving away a possession to a team that is going to go down and play their offense business as usual.

The fact that there would be 30 less seconds on the game clock in that scenario cannot be dismissed as immaterial. That is 30 seconds less that the opponent has to score. You can't assume that their offense is perfectly efficient, meaning your own defense is perfectly inefficient.

 

[GoSU96]

Stall ball up 10 with 3 minutes left works. Stall ball up 4 with 4 minutes left is not a recipe for success, especially for a team thats at its best playing uptempo and staying out of the half court.

How many times has it cost SU a game?

 

[Cheriehoop]

How many times has it cost SU a game?

No one here but I bet JB knows.

 

[cliftonparksufan]

No one here but I bet JB knows.

I think Jake had some stats and/or thoughts on this some time back. No question that it is successful, but last night was not executed properly. Clark hit that deep three which didn't help, but offensively our sets were ugly.

 

[Cheriehoop]

I can't help but think that JB's record of 26 wins to 4 losses in overtime games hints at what the most successful strategy is.

 

[Knicks411]

I can't help but think that JB's record of 26 wins to 4 losses in overtime games hints at what the most successful strategy is.

Is this a real stat? Wow.

 

[cliftonparksufan]

I can't help but think that JB's record of 26 wins to 4 losses in overtime games hints at what the most successful strategy is.

We need someone to go back and break up those overtime games into three catagories and to see how they played out.

1) Games that were nip and tuck the whole way
2) Games Cuse came back to tie it up in regulation
3) Games that the opponent came back to tie it in regulation

JB's record in close games is phenomenal and higher than his winning percentage which is amazing. A lot of that comes down to the great talent he has recruited over the years.

 

[OrangeMojo]

How many times has it cost SU a game?

I know it cost SU the Butler game in yet another Sweet 16 loss two years ago and I know it killed the momentum that SU had last night. It's a very effective strategy in certain situations (obviously based on JB's record) - but as others have stated - in a low scoring game against a very good defensive team and a small lead it really puts SU in a bad situation and I'm convinced has turned many would be comfortable wins into nail-biters or losses.

 

[KevMonstah]

Stall ball to work has to be something other than:

"The guards hold the ball out by halfcourt and do nothing, then with ten seconds left on the clock, try to create something, discover they can't, and take a terrible shot."

If you have a large enough margin to work with, where wasted possessions don't matter, then by all means, continue to burn clock and throw up prayers.

If the margin is within a shot or two, I'd prefer that stall ball means "move the ball around the defense, to the FT line, back out, to the post, back out, etc, and find/create/take a good shot." That is rarely demonstrated by Syracuse. If they could ever figure out how to post Fab on the low block, and get the ball to him, and tell him to just turn and shoot - the type of play he demonstrated against Florida when he turned and buried an eight foot jumper right over their center - then I'd be happy watching them "work the clock". But they rarely end up with a decent shot.

Kev

 

[RoysRunts]

Wouldn't NC missing FT's come into the equation?

 

[BuffOrange]

There is a time and place for it for sure. But please stop citing our record as evidence it works. Teams with the worst bullpens in baseball have a winning record when they have the lead after 7 innings. And if they do give up the lead and win in the 10th inning, do people say "that pitching change in the 9th worked"?

 

[NKR1978]

How many times has it cost SU a game?

The only game I can think of that we lost was the 08 Pitt game. We were rolling and then went to the stall and the team fell apart offensively and defensively.

There is definitely a strong argument that up 4 with 4 minutes left is not a good time to stall. Still, what if we didn't stall and still didn't manage to score and gave Georgetown 3 extra possessions? This place would have been apoplectic. with so many people. JB is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.