I know most hate stall ball

[Knicks411]

There is definitely a strong argument that up 4 with 4 minutes left is not a good time to stall. Still, what if we didn't stall and still didn't manage to score and gave Georgetown 3 extra possessions? This place would have been apoplectic. with so many people. JB is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.

Well yeah, if you don't score in the last 4 minutes, you're going to be screwed either way.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

We need someone to go back and break up those overtime games into three catagories and to see how they played out.

1) Games that were nip and tuck the whole way
2) Games Cuse came back to tie it up in regulation
3) Games that the opponent came back to tie it in regulation

JB's record in close games is phenomenal and higher than his winning percentage which is amazing. A lot of that comes down to the great talent he has recruited over the years.

Moron. Yeah, I'll get right on that. Anything else I can do for you to try and cheapen JB's amazing overtime record?

 

[JoeSU]

This was intended to be a thread about Roy's hack job tonight, not about SU's ball movement.

Sorry the focus of your thread got hijacked by a discussion of the SU strategy last evening.
FWIW, I agree with your original point: UNC had a W sewn up last night and let it get away by NOT taking the air out of the ball at the end.

 

[cliftonparksufan]

Moron. Yeah, I'll get right on that. Anything else I can do for you to try and cheapen JB's amazing overtime record?

No need to call anyone Moron. I'm defending JB. Maybe go back and read the posts before you start calling people names.

 

[rstone7727]

No strategy, repeat - No strategy works 100% of the time. Fact is, when you are leading near the end of the game, the clock is as much your enemy as the other team. No one can say Roy's strategy cost UNC the game because no one can predict the future. Had he not played stall ball, they may have lost by even more. You can theorize all day but when it comes to predicting the future only Nostradamus has an admirable record.

 

[newmexicuse]

It works in the right situation when you can execute a half court offense.

Stall ball with 3+ minutes left when you're only up four and struggling to score is a bad, bad idea, however.

I think it is a matter of how much stall ball is being played. In that situation, maybe you just let 10 seconds run & get into your offense w 20 to 23 seconds left on the shot clock as opposed to let it run down to 10 to 12 seconds before you try to run a play.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

No need to call anyone Moron. I'm defending JB. Maybe go back and read the posts before you start calling people names.

Sorry about that then, I guess I misinterpreted your ambiguus post.

What then is your purpose in reviewing classifications of how the game got to overtime? Sounded like the point you were trying to have someone research for you was whether JB squandered away leads.

And you do realize when you put in "A lot of that comes down to the great talent he has recruited over the years" that it sounds like you are insinuating that JB won because of a talent advantage. Which once again seems to be an attempt to minimize an incredible overtime record.

If you really thought you were defending JB, it missed its mark with me.

 

[cliftonparksufan]

Sorry about that then, I guess I misinterpreted your ambiguus post.

What then is your purpose in reviewing classifications of how the game got to overtime? Sounded like the point you were trying to have someone research for you was whether JB squandered away leads.

And you do realize when you put in "A lot of that comes down to the great talent he has recruited over the years" that it sounds like you are insinuating that JB won because of a talent advantage. Which once again seems to be an attempt to minimize an incredible overtime record.

If you really thought you were defending JB, it missed its mark with me.

I guess you didn't read the most important part of my post. Doesn't sound very ambiguous to me.

"JB's record in close games is phenomenal and higher than his winning percentage which is amazing."

A big part of great coaching is recruiting great talent. Do you think that the overall top ten all time winning coaches are the ten best X and O guys or the ten best recruiters. I would guess more would be on the list of top ten recruiters.

 

[jekelish]

I'd say most of the winningest coaches are a combination of good X and O guys and good recruiters. Coach K, for example, gets a lot of talent but he's also an exceptional X and O guy. I also think of Bobby Knight as more of an X and O guy than a recruiter, to be quite honest.

 

[cliftonparksufan]

I'd say most of the winningest coaches are a combination of good X and O guys and good recruiters. Coach K, for example, gets a lot of talent but he's also an exceptional X and O guy. I also think of Bobby Knight as more of an X and O guy than a recruiter, to be quite honest.

But how would you rate JB. I would say he is a better recruiter than X and O guy, but if you think about what he has done with the 2/3 zone, it makes the discussion much more interesting.

 

[jekelish]

Oh, absolutely. I love JB, but I don't think of him as a particularly great X and O guy. He brings in great talent and does coach them up, usually, but watch how we execute a halfcourt offense as opposed to, say, Duke, and it's night and day.

 

[SWC75]

Regarding overtime: the record there is only relevant if we used stall ball to defend a lead in overtime. It is relevant how many of those OT games went to overtime due to lost leads. I don't have that stats, unfortunatley. But JB's overtime record isn't a defense of stall ball.

My formula for it, (and I proposed this to JB but he didn't like the idea of doing it by a formula) was that you take the size of the lead and compare it to the number of 35 second segments left in the game, (rounding up on that number) x 3. If the lead is greater than that, you can just eat up the clock and even if you give up the ball without scoring and they get a quick three on the other end and still win. So you concentrate on bleeding the clock rather than taking the first open shot you can get. Of course you have to recalibrate that with every possession: if you have a turnover, say, 15 seconds into a possesion, it changes the calculation.

Here is what happened down the stretch in last night's game, (from the SU Athletic site):







GOOD! 3 PTR by JOSEPH, Kris 04:37 5 4 - 4 8 H 6
ASSIST by WAITERS, Dion 04:37
04:24 5 4 - 5 1 H 3 GOOD! 3 PTR by CLARK, Jason
04:24 ASSIST by PORTER, Otto
MISSED JUMPER by WAITERS, Dion 03:59
REBOUND (OFF) by FAIR, C.J. 03:59
03:55 FOUL by WHITTINGTON, Greg (P1T7)
TIMEOUT media 03:55
GOOD! FT SHOT by JOSEPH, Kris 03:55 5 5 - 5 1 H 4
MISSED FT SHOT by JOSEPH, Kris 03:55 REBOUND (DEF) by THOMPSON, Hollis
03:55

SUB IN : SIMS, Henry
03:55

SUB OUT: HOPKINS, Mikael
BLOCK by MELO, Fab 03:41 MISSED JUMPER by SIMS, Henry
REBOUND (DEF) by JOSEPH, Kris 03:37
TURNOVR by JARDINE, Scoop 03:24
03:23 STEALVbybCLARK,KJasonon
TIMEOUT TEAM 03:12
TURNOVR by FAIR, C.J. 02:47
02:45 STEAL by WHITTINGTON, Greg
BLOCK by MELO, Fab 02:38 MISSED JUMPER by SIMS, Henry
02:35 REBOUND (OFF) by SIMS, Henry
REBOUND (DEF) by WAITERS, Dion 02:33 MISSED JUMPER by SIMS, Henry
MISSED 3 PTR by JARDINE, Scoop 01:57 REBOUND (DEF) by SIMS, Henry
01:36 5 5 - 5 4 H 1 GOOD! 3 PTR by CLARK, Jason
01:36 ASSIST by WHITTINGTON, Greg
TIMEOUT TEAM 01:28
01:28

SUB IN : TRAWICK, Jabril
01:28

SUB OUT: THOMPSON, Hollis
TIMEOUT TEAM 01:10
MISSED 3 PTR by WAITERS, Dion 01:01 REBOUND (DEF) by WHITTINGTON, Greg
FOUL by FAIR, C.J. (P3T7) 01:00 5 5 - 5 5 T 12 GOOD! FT SHOT by WHITTINGTON, Greg
01:00 MISSED FT SHOT by WHITTINGTON, Greg
01:00 REBOUND (OFF) by WHITTINGTON, Greg
00:54 TIMEOUT TEAM
00:54

SUB IN : THOMPSON, Hollis
00:54

SUB OUT: TRAWICK, Jabril
BLOCK by MELO, Fab 00:31 MISSED JUMPER by SIMS, Henry
REBOUND (DEF) by JOSEPH, Kris 00:29
MISSED 3 PTR by WAITERS, Dion 00:02 REBOUND (DEF) by SIMS, Henry

We got the ball with 4:24 and a 3 point lead, took 25 seconds off the clock and Dion Waiters missed a jump shot. Fair got the rebound, Joseph was fouled and made 1 of 2 shots to make it 55-51.

We got the ball back at 3:37 with the same score but Scoop turned it over at 3:24. the log is confusing here: there was another change of possession at 3:22 but CJ wound up with a turnover at 2:47. 50 seconds gone but no points.
We got the ball back at 2:33 with the score stuck on 55-51. We bled 35 seconds off the clock but Scoop missed a trey at the buzzer and Georgetown got the rebound at 1:57.

Clark made a tough trey to cole it to 55-54 and we got the ball back at 1:36. Dion missed a three pointer at 1:01 and Fair fouled Whititngton who tied the game the line, then rebounded his own miss on the second shot. Melo got his big block and we got the ball back at 29 seconds.

Dion missed a three pointer at 2 seconds after a weird behind the back pass by Scoop and we went to overtime.

Obviously exectution has alot to do with this and Gerogetown's defense deserves alot of credit. But to cite this game as proof that stallball works because we won the game in OT doesn't seem quite appropriate. Not that it was bieng used but there was never a point in this game where my forumla would have applied.

 

[cliftonparksufan]

We got the ball with 4:24 and a 3 point lead, took 25 seconds off the clock and Dion Waiters missed a jump shot. Fair got the rebound, Joseph was fouled and made 1 of 2 shots to make it 55-51.

We got the ball back at 3:37 with the same score but Scoop turned it over at 3:24. the log is confusing here: there was another change of possession at 3:22 but CJ wound up with a turnover at 2:47. 50 seconds gone but no points.
We got the ball back at 2:33 with the score stuck on 55-51. We bled 35 seconds off the clock but Scoop missed a trey at the buzzer and Georgetown got the rebound at 1:57.

Clark made a tough trey to cole it to 55-54 and we got the ball back at 1:36. Dion missed a three pointer at 1:01 and Fair fouled Whititngton who tied the game the line, then rebounded his own miss on the second shot. Melo got his big block and we got the ball back at 29 seconds.

Dion missed a three pointer at 2 seconds after a weird behind the back pass by Scoop and we went to overtime.

Obviously exectution has alot to do with this and Gerogetown's defense deserves alot of credit. But to cite this game as proof that stallball works because we won the game in OT doesn't seem quite appropriate. Not that it was bieng used but there was never a point in this game where my forumla would have applied.

How do you account for when the losing team starts fouling to stop the clock and force the winning team to make free throws. Or is that taken into consideration with the need to recalibrate your calculation. Not for nothing, but I understand how successful stall ball has been with JB, but I thought he went into it a little early against a team not know for it's offense. The only thing I was thinking was maybe he felt his guys were gassed and wanted to really slow it down.

 

[Townie72]

I can't help but think that JB's record of 26 wins to 4 losses in overtime games hints at what the most successful strategy is.

Sorry to be incredulous. Is that a real statistic?

Is JB's record really 26 w's and 4 l's in overtime?

That's hard to believe ... just statistically, I mean. It's one thing to have a .750 career winning percentage given the opportunity to schedule early season OOC patsies. But winning 85% of OT games is incredble. That's almost can't be right.

 

[Townie72]

Sorry to be incredulous. Is that a real statistic?

Is JB's record really 26 w's and 4 l's in overtime?

That's hard to believe ... just statistically, I mean. It's one thing to have a .750 career winning percentage given the opportunity to schedule early season OOC patsies. But winning 85% of OT games is incredble. That's almost can't be right.

I'm replying to my own post. Answers are easy to find.

JB's career record in OT games is 33 wins and 19 losses for a 63% success rate. Very good. Not 85% good. But very good.

His record in games won by less than 6 points is 183 wins and 109 losses or 64% success rate.

Seems to me this makes quite the case for JB being a great bench coach. These games are where x's and o's are critical.

http://statsheet.com/mcb/coaches/jim-boeheim/career_record

 

[Sgt Cuse]

How do you account for when the losing team starts fouling to stop the clock and force the winning team to make free throws. Or is that taken into consideration with the need to recalibrate your calculation. Not for nothing, but I understand how successful stall ball has been with JB, but I thought he went into it a little early against a team not know for it's defense. The only thing I was thinking was maybe he felt his guys were gassed and wanted to really slow it down.

I can understand not liking when he did his stall. A lot of people are with you on that. Not me, but a lot of others. I didn't think it hurt. They had the lead and wnated to shorten the game. It's not like they were scoring all these fast break points before anyway. I just think it was executed poorly. I am sure JB did not want Dion launching fade away 3 ptrs as the clock expired. They are going to be employing it, they better know how to do it. Use this to learn.

But the reasoning "against a team not know for it's defense" baffles me. Both SU and Georgetown are known for their defenses. They mentioned several times how GT was tops in the BE in points scored against.

 

[cliftonparksufan]

But the reasoning "against a team not know for it's defense" baffles me. Both SU and Georgetown are known for their defenses. They mentioned several times how GT was tops in the BE in points scored against.

Whoops. My error. I meant to say Georgetown is not known for their offense. Obviously they are a great defensive team.

 

[pfister1]

I didn't think the move to stall ball last night was born out by the usual mathematical formula approach. ie. if we limit their opportunities they can't get enough possessions to catch us. It wasn't as though we were having a good offensive night and we tapped the brakes to take us out of our rhythm.

I assumed JB was thinking we're having a lot of trouble scoring lets limit the possessions both teams have - and put the games in the hands of our defense hoping that it may be able to save our bacon.

 

[SWC75]

How do you account for when the losing team starts fouling to stop the clock and force the winning team to make free throws. Or is that taken into consideration with the need to recalibrate your calculation. Not for nothing, but I understand how successful stall ball has been with JB, but I thought he went into it a little early against a team not know for it's defense. The only thing I was thinking was maybe he felt his guys were gassed and wanted to really slow it down.

Yes, anything that alters the situation requires a recalculation. Georgetown is known for it's defense, by the way.

 

[Cheriehoop]

I'm replying to my own post. Answers are easy to find.

JB's career record in OT games is 33 wins and 19 losses for a 63% success rate. Very good. Not 85% good. But very good.

His record in games won by less than 6 points is 183 wins and 109 losses or 64% success rate.

Seems to me this makes quite the case for JB being a great bench coach. These games are where x's and o's are critical.

http://statsheet.com/mcb/coaches/jim-boeheim/career_record

Thanks for the stats Townie. I used what the PS had in an article they had last night. My son and I were floored by the stat of 26-4 and discussed it for quite a while. In addition, they said JB was 19-2 in OT games at home in the Carrier Dome. I should have questioned those stats considering that would mean that we played 21 OT games in the dome vs just 9 OT games away. Pretty darn good stats though. Since 2000 we are 16-4 in OT games.

By the way Coach K is 31-23 in OT games or 57%

 

[Col. Bleep]

There's no magic prescription.
But time and time again we've had problems running clock and letting other teams get back into games.
We're not the old UNC teams running their 4-corners.

I can only recall one time when it was executed to perfection.
In OT against St. John's way back in '84...pre-shot clock.
Several starters had fouled out.
We were down 1 with about 2:30 to go.
Boeheim held the ball for almost two-and-a-half minutes...wound down the clock...we got it to Greg Monroe in the corner...swish...game over...victory.

But that was necessity because we were so out-manned.
I think killing clock also too often kills rhythm and momentum and can energize the other team.

 

[arrow2arinzesknee]

If you're holding the ball for 30 seconds and rushing a bad shot, you're basically giving away a possession to a team that is going to go down and play their offense business as usual.

ya but at the expense of 35 seconds, worst case scenario, best case 35 and ppints or foul or offensive rebound

24-1 everyone needs to relax

 

[Knicks411]

I'm replying to my own post. Answers are easy to find.

JB's career record in OT games is 33 wins and 19 losses for a 63% success rate. Very good. Not 85% good. But very good.

His record in games won by less than 6 points is 183 wins and 109 losses or 64% success rate.

Seems to me this makes quite the case for JB being a great bench coach. These games are where x's and o's are critical.

http://statsheet.com/mcb/coaches/jim-boeheim/career_record

The OT record is really good, 26-4 seemed too good to be true.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

I'm replying to my own post. Answers are easy to find.

JB's career record in OT games is 33 wins and 19 losses for a 63% success rate. Very good. Not 85% good. But very good.

His record in games won by less than 6 points is 183 wins and 109 losses or 64% success rate.

Seems to me this makes quite the case for JB being a great bench coach. These games are where x's and o's are critical.

http://statsheet.com/mcb/coaches/jim-boeheim/career_record

Further proof that you can make statistics say anything you like.

I'm not going to argue whether or not JB is or isn't a "great bench coach." There are no valid statistics to prove it either way.

I do dispute these numbers as proof, though. To say JB has a + record in games won by 6 points or less doesn't account for games we should have won by more than 6 points. It gives him credit, essentially, if we were pulling away from a team and then stalled and 'hung on' for a win.

The OT record, if factual, doesn't account for how many of those games 'should' have gone to overtime. If we played Fordham and had to win in OT, that's not a positive statement.

And whoever insisted that JB's roster talent shouldn't be considered when evaluating these 'statistics' isn't a person entirely interested in objectivity. Fact is, in the majority of games we play, we have a talent advantage. In the majority of games we play, we have a home court advantage. Discounting either of those matters is silly.

I wish there were some sort of baseball-like metric for covering spreads, combined with 'park-related factors,' combined with WAR as it pertains to personnel, etc., etc., etc. And, in my fantasy land, i'd also love to hear from all the JB bootlickers how they feel his career would have progressed had he been at a school such as, say Boston College. Or, what if he had gone to Ohio State... I'm sorta of the mind that he's like a hitter who was just 'made' to hit in a certain park. The stars aligned, and now we have... what we have.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

Further proof that you can make statistics say anything you like.

I'm not going to argue whether or not JB is or isn't a "great bench coach." There are no valid statistics to prove it either way.

I do dispute these numbers as proof, though. To say JB has a + record in games won by 6 points or less doesn't account for games we should have won by more than 6 points. It gives him credit, essentially, if we were pulling away from a team and then stalled and 'hung on' for a win.

The OT record, if factual, doesn't account for how many of those games 'should' have gone to overtime. If we played Fordham and had to win in OT, that's not a positive statement.

And whoever insisted that JB's roster talent shouldn't be considered when evaluating these 'statistics' isn't a person entirely interested in objectivity. Fact is, in the majority of games we play, we have a talent advantage. In the majority of games we play, we have a home court advantage. Discounting either of those matters is silly.

I wish there were some sort of baseball-like metric for covering spreads, combined with 'park-related factors,' combined with WAR as it pertains to personnel, etc., etc., etc. And, in my fantasy land, i'd also love to hear from all the JB bootlickers how they feel his career would have progressed had he been at a school such as, say Boston College. Or, what if he had gone to Ohio State... I'm sorta of the mind that he's like a hitter who was just 'made' to hit in a certain park. The stars aligned, and now we have... what we have.

You do realize that the current state of this SU recruiting is a rather recent phenomenon. We weren't always a clear talent favorite. So your quote "Fact is, in the majority of the games, blah, blah, blah" is not a fact at all, but instead your opinion/guess.

And just how do you propose to account for the games that "should" not have gone to overtime. What a crock. Wouldn't you then have to put that same adjustment to all the other coaches in order to have a relatively meaningful statistic. Good way to dilute a statistic with a subjective measure. And the should have won by more stuff gets annoying. Beating the point spread really isn't JBs job, winning is.

I'm personally glad JB did not go to BC or Ohio State. I think he would have done tremendously at either. For SU, I don't think we would have fared nearly as well. And now, with the combination of events that have occurred, SU is currently sitting near the top. Great recruiting coming in now, and good to great teams as a result. It has been quite a three year ride and more on the way with DC2 and maybe Noel. To think that the Hall of fFame coach isn't a huge part of the appeal just looks like hater speak.