i think I can talk myself into giving Shafer more time

[Alsacs]

9 times: 1904, (we beat Manhattan 144-0), 1916, (we opened against "All-Syracuse"), the 1959 team, the 1987 team, the four McNabb years and Nassib's senior year.

Sorry I said 7 instead of 9.

 

[Pyle]

I will say good and if you want to say great is wrong fine. I would give our defense a B- or maybe a B.

We had an A- defense. Avg of 349.2 yards per game, that's only 20 yards more per game than the same 'great' Ole Miss defense you referenced. The difference is Ole Miss had a functional offense and kept the defense off the field. Given just how completely sh***y our offense was, having a defense ranked 26th in yards given up per game is alot better than a B-. With a functional offense who knows what could have happened, bet we beat Clemson.

 

[K Otto XLIV]

You choose the metric and describe "our fans" as all thinking he's a genius on D. I don't think anyone here has said he's a genius since I've been posting here. I think most think he's been decent to good. No more, no less.

I do think many SU fans overrate our D and Shafer. Just my opinion. Heck in this very thread we have this:

"Shafer is an exceptional D coach i dont think that anyone can argue that"

The stats do not say exceptional. There are 65 schools in the P5. IMO Shafer wouldn't be in the top 25th percentile of D coaches. I think he is in the next percentile and closer to the 25th than 50th. That is a good thing and I am glad that we have him leading the D. However I think more SU fans than not would put him in the Top 10 of D coaches.

 

[Pyle]

I trust the D staff completely. I do not expect to see any mediocre or bad Ds under Shafer. However I also do not expect him to turn SU into VA Tech on D. Having a consistently good D is a positive and will certainly be good enough to get you into a Bowl. All we need is a decent O and we are set.

We only gave up 5.4 more yards per game than VT did last year.

 

[TheCusian]

I do think many SU fans overrate our D and Shafer. Just my opinion. Heck in this very thread we have this:

"Shafer is an exceptional D coach i dont think that anyone can argue that"

The stats do not say exceptional. There are 65 schools in the P5. IMO Shafer wouldn't be in the top 25th percentile of D coaches. I think he is in the next percentile and closer to the 25th than 50th. That is a good thing and I am glad that we have him leading the D. However I think more SU fans than not would put him in the Top 10 of D coaches.

Sure. I'd say that's pretty accurate. I'd give him top 30. But that's not bad given 128 teams and 60+ p5 teams.

 

[K Otto XLIV]

We only gave up 5.4 more yards per game than VT did last year.

I was referring to VA Tech in their heyday. Their D during the 90s and 2000s dominated teams. They didn't need much on O to win games. I don't think we can get to that level on D.

 

[Alsacs]

We had an A- defense. Avg of 349.2 yards per game, that's only 20 yards more per game than the same 'great' Ole Miss defense you referenced. The difference is Ole Miss had a functional offense and kept the defense off the field. Given just how completely sh***y our offense was, having a defense ranked 26th in yards given up per game is alot better than a B-. With a functional offense who knows what could have happened, bet we beat Clemson.

If our D was an A- why did we get shredded by Villanova, Maryland, Florida State, Notre Dame etc.
If you think our D was even in the ballpark of Ole Miss we aren't being fair. The talent on Ole Miss that got drafted was NFL talent the talent on Syracuse that graduated did not even get drafted.

 

[Alsacs]

I was referring to VA Tech in their heyday. Their D during the 90s and 2000s dominated teams. They didn't need much on O to win games. I don't think we can get to that level on D.

They were Beamer Ball(dominant Special Teams) and good D. I think of guys like Corey Moore, Daryl Tapp Fuller Brothers. They were D dominant and good QBs. Hating VPI used to be fun when they were good.

VPI has deteriorated recently though.

 

[Scooch]

Sometimes we can debate things too finely.

Our defense is not really a problem. Quibble about the adjective that one should use to describe it, but in broad terms our D is good enough.

Meanwhile, our offense has been an ongoing disaster for a decade, save for seven games in 2012.

 

[K Otto XLIV]

If our D was an A- why did we get shredded by Villanova, Maryland, Florida State, Notre Dame etc.
If you think our D was even in the ballpark of Ole Miss we aren't being fair. The talent on Ole Miss that got drafted was NFL talent the talent on Syracuse that graduated did not even get drafted.

I think B- is a little low though.

I would say that the D played poorly vs Nova, MD, ND, Louisville, FSU

And the D played well vs CMU, Wake, Clemson, NC St, Duke

Pitt and BC the effort the team put forth on both sides of the ball was very disappointing. I am not sure that the team was mentally still there after the bye week. Those two games keep me from getting too excited for this year.

I think given the O "performance" the last 7 games the D should get at least a B.

 

[upperdeck]

Our D was 37th in PPG. We did well against CMU, Wake, NC State, Duke, Clemson. Our D got shredded by Notre Dame, Maryland, Florida State, Pitt and okay against Louisville and BC.

This narrative our D was great is not right. When I think of a dominating D I like of Clemson, Ole Miss, Stanford last year. We weren't as good as the numbers said.

maryland had under 400 yds and thats with the one 90 yd screen pass. if you hold teams to 350 thats better than ok and that was 7 teams last year.

 

[upperdeck]

If our D was an A- why did we get shredded by Villanova, Maryland, Florida State, Notre Dame etc.
If you think our D was even in the ballpark of Ole Miss we aren't being fair. The talent on Ole Miss that got drafted was NFL talent the talent on Syracuse that graduated did not even get drafted.

vill had under 300 yds then had 1 late drive and ot to get to decent numbers. its not like they went up and down the field all game.

 

[Alsacs]

maryland had under 400 yds and thats with the one 90 yd screen pass. if you hold teams to 350 thats better than ok and that was 7 teams last year.

C'mon. Maryland did nothing in the 2nd half. They ran the clock out and let us shoot ourselves in the foot. Maryland moved the ball at will in the first half. Please don't try saying the D played well against Maryland.

 

[Alsacs]

I think B- is a little low though.

I would say that the D played poorly vs Nova, MD, ND, Louisville, FSU

And the D played well vs CMU, Wake, Clemson, NC St, Duke

Pitt and BC the effort the team put forth on both sides of the ball was very disappointing. I am not sure that the team was mentally still there after the bye week. Those two games keep me from getting too excited for this year.

I think given the O "performance" the last 7 games the D should get at least a B.

I agree I said B- to B. Had the same opinions on the game. I would say Pitt dominated us and BC we just gave up they didn't dominate.

 

[Pyle]

If our D was an A- why did we get shredded by Villanova, Maryland, Florida State, Notre Dame etc.
If you think our D was even in the ballpark of Ole Miss we aren't being fair. The talent on Ole Miss that got drafted was NFL talent the talent on Syracuse that graduated did not even get drafted.

My honest feeling is that we completely slept on Nova and they weren't prepared, coaches, players, everyone. Florida State had the #1 overall pick in the NFL draft as their QB. Notre Dame beat us due to crappy scheme and being afraid not to get beat deep. I was literally throwing in my living room screaming for them to cover the bubble screen. Maryland didn't shred us at all. We gave up 369 yards which was 20 over the avg. and we gave up a TD to their D.

EDIT: I forgot MD did all their damage in the first half. I take that one back.

 

[K Otto XLIV]

C'mon. Maryland did nothing in the 2nd half. They ran the clock out and let us shoot ourselves in the foot. Maryland moved the ball at will in the first half. Please don't try saying the D played well against Maryland.

24 points and 275 yards in the 1st half.

 

[Pyle]

C'mon. Maryland did nothing in the 2nd half. They ran the clock out and let us shoot ourselves in the foot. Maryland moved the ball at will in the first half. Please don't try saying the D played well against Maryland.

I would have to concur and edited my prior post to reflect that.

 

[Alsacs]

Listen I mean SS is a solid D coach. I just don't think we have ever been really good. That has to do with the talent. I think if we are going to say in context to the talent he has a really good job fine. However, overall we haven't been really good because we have never had the horses for that.

Our D has good for the talent but in context to the nation we have been okay. Our O has just been a train wreck.

 

[Millhouse]

Well ok, but I thought the point was ... statistically, trick plays = explosive plays, and explosive plays have a higher correlation with a successful outcome than TO's.

i think it is very debatable that trick plays = explosive plays

 

[TheCusian]

If our D was an A- why did we get shredded by Villanova, Maryland, Florida State, Notre Dame etc. If you think our D was even in the ballpark of Ole Miss we aren't being fair. The talent on Ole Miss that got drafted was NFL talent the talent on Syracuse that graduated did not even get drafted.

Don't mean to be nit-picky - but if you're making the case that our D coaches are pretty good, having less talent and achieving what they did - helps that argument.

 

[TheCusian]

C'mon. Maryland did nothing in the 2nd half. They ran the clock out and let us shoot ourselves in the foot. Maryland moved the ball at will in the first half. Please don't try saying the D played well against Maryland.

Cmon. They were not even the good in the first. We blew two assignments. They took advantage. Our D and O both played well enough to win that game. It was redzone O and TO hell that lost us the game.

 

[TheCusian]

Listen I mean SS is a solid D coach. I just don't think we have ever been really good. That has to do with the talent. I think if we are going to say in context to the talent he has a really good job fine. However, overall we haven't been really good because we have never had the horses for that. Our D has good for the talent but in context to the nation we have been okay. Our O has just been a train wreck.

Right. Exactly. But that's on recruiting.

And a small quibble - I think the 2010 (kstate pinstripe bowl year) D is way underrated. #7 overall D is good no matter what way you slice it.

 

[Alsacs]

Cmon. They were not even the good in the first. We blew two assignments. They took advantage. Our D and O both played well enough to win that game. It was redzone O and TO hell that lost us the game.

Maryland scores in the 40s if they run any offense in the 2nd half. I get your are glass is full even when its only 25% full guy but they torched us in the first half. How many punts did the D force in that first half? Our O moved the ball on their D but their O torched our D.

 

[Alsacs]

Right. Exactly. But that's on recruiting.

And a small quibble - I think the 2010 (kstate pinstripe bowl year) D is way underrated. #7 overall D is good no matter what way you slice it.

Go and read KOIII's post on the schedule mattering in determining these rankings. That 2010 D was good but it got torched by Washington and Kansas State not exactly the best Os that season. They were good but also played a BE schedule and outside of WVU there weren't any good Os in that conference that year to give them credit they did shut down WVU which was our best W that season and we played 2 D-1AAs and Akron. Not many good Os that season.

The talent on the roster was good though Chandler and the LBs so I would say that was a good D top 30 D but not an great D.

 

[TheCusian]

Go and read KOIII's post on the schedule mattering in determining these rankings. That 2010 D was good but it got torched by Washington and Kansas State not exactly the best Os that season. They were good but also played a BE schedule and outside of WVU there weren't any good Os in that conference that year to give them credit they did shut down WVU which was our best W that season and we played 2 D-1AAs and Akron. Not many good Os that season. The talent on the roster was good though Chandler and the LBs so I would say that was a good D top 30 D but not an great D.

You play who you play. They did their jobs mostly. I'd take #7 D against any major conference, regardless of the relative offensive strength.

Also - I just said that squad was underrated.