I would take Triche or Scoop over flynn

[gilardino]

prove me wrong

 

[4evaOrange]

Well, Flynn was only a two year guy. So without seeing him for four years is a bit odd for the discussion. Flynn was a better passer, play maker, quicker, shooting is up in the air.
I think if Flynn stayed he could've achieved all American status...IMO

 

[Bayside44]

To do what exactly?

 

[billsin01]

prove me wrong

The 'prove me wrong' is the best part of this post because A) I'm not even sure what criteria we're talking about and B) the premise is so ridiculous I'm not sure anyone really has to waste time proving you wrong.

 

[cuseincincy]

The 'prove me wrong' is the best part of this post because A) I'm not even sure what criteria we're talking about and B) the premise is so ridiculous I'm not sure anyone really has to waste time proving you wrong.

Agreed. The only measurable resposne is that Flynn was better as a freshman and sophmore than either Scoop or Triche ever were in their SU careers. And its not even close.

 

[edowd26]

To do what exactly?

Taking his daughter to prom. Or hunting quail.

 

[NineOneSeven]

prove me wrong

You're wrong.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Flynn was an exceptional college talent, but his legacy is hurt by how successful the teams that came after him were proven to be.

Flynn fought the zone. The zone has arguably been our differentiator ever since the Rautins/Onuaku senior led team. Jonny probably dominates the personality of that team if he stays another year. How different would SU hoops look now?

 

[PoppyHart]

 

[billsin01]

Flynn was an exceptional college talent, but his legacy is hurt by how successful the teams that came after him were proven to be.

This is true to an extent but it's worth pointing out that Flynn's frosh team got hurt badly by the injury to Rautins in August and then the season-ender to Devendorf in mid-December (averaging 17 ppg at that point on 47% shooting). Yet Flynn still played 39.2 mpg in conference, turned it over just 95 times (MCW and Triche eclipsed that number this year in fewer mpg) and scored almost 16 ppg with 5 assists/game. That's really a pretty good season which you have to think would have at least ended with a couple more wins and an NCAA trip if even one of Devendorf or Rautins stays healthy.

Then, 08-09 he puts up 17.4 ppg, 6.8 apg and the team wins 28 games, including a pretty ridiculous run to the BE title game (a loss to a really good l'ville team on the fourth game in four nights including 6 OTs) and then the sweet 16.

Anyway, I agree with the general point that the golden era of Cuse hoops followed flynn's departure but it's hard for me to believe it was addition by subtraction when he departed.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Anyway, I agree with the general point that the golden era of Cuse hoops followed flynn's departure but it's hard for me to believe it was addition by subtraction when he departed.

See, I think I do buy it actually. It's really weird to say that, and I don't want that to take away from how great of a talent Flynn was because as a player he was exceptional, but...

It wasn't just that Flynn didn't like playing zone, he was open about that in interviews and things. The season after he left, the zone became the team's identity. I think it is possible that Flynn's force of personality may have been holding the program back to some extent, because we've seen the difference now that everybody bought in.

Paul Harris has a lot to do with that too though, so this probably is a Niagara thing more than just a Flynn thing.

 

[RandygoCuse]

See, I think I do buy it actually. It's really weird to say that, and I don't want that to take away from how great of a talent Flynn was because as a player he was exceptional, but...

It wasn't just that Flynn didn't like playing zone, he was open about that in interviews and things. The season after he left, the zone became the team's identity. I think it is possible that Flynn's force of personality may have been holding the program back to some extent, because we've seen the difference now that everybody bought in.

Paul Harris has a lot to do with that too though, so this probably is a Niagara thing more than just a Flynn thing.

We went to the Sweet 16 with Flynn. Yes, subsequent teams went further, but none of them ran into Blake Griffin either.

 

[jsshap]

We went to the Sweet 16 with Flynn. Yes, subsequent teams went further, but none of them ran into Blake Griffin either.

Indeed, and Flynn is the only one who really stepped up that game as well.

 

[billsin01]

See, I think I do buy it actually. It's really weird to say that, and I don't want that to take away from how great of a talent Flynn was because as a player he was exceptional, but...

It wasn't just that Flynn didn't like playing zone, he was open about that in interviews and things. The season after he left, the zone became the team's identity. I think it is possible that Flynn's force of personality may have been holding the program back to some extent, because we've seen the difference now that everybody bought in.

Paul Harris has a lot to do with that too though, so this probably is a Niagara thing more than just a Flynn thing.

I don't entirely disagree with that but I think I'd suggest that the dropoff to Scoop wasn't nearly as far as most think it was (talent-wise yes, but in terms of bringing something to the table and being a good teammate, no.) . I'd also suggest that there were factors that were beyond scoop's or Flynn's control -- Joseph was a phenomenal player as a sophomore and you added a perfect JB-type in Wes Johnson as well. Devendorf and Harris were tough personalities to deal with and their exits probably didn't hurt. RJ loses 30 pounds out of nowhere and turns in a phenomenal senior season.

I don't know, I think Flynn's second half of his soph year was really good. I can't help but think we would have been even a little more dangerous his junior year. I guess that's tough to really know for sure, however.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

We went to the Sweet 16 with Flynn. Yes, subsequent teams went further, but none of them ran into Blake Griffin either.

That doesn't have anything to do with what I was saying.

 

[jordoo]

If Devo and Andy didn't go down and Donte came back for his soph season then it would be all Hail The Great Jonny around here because we'd have been S16 or better his frosh season and FF or better his soph season. If the draw was different his soph season that team as it was could have made a deep run but OU, Griffin, hot shooting and our poor shooting were pretty much a no go.

Jonny IMO was a much better player than Scoop or Triche not to knock either who had great successful careers that also could have been much better if AO didn't get hurt, Fab had gone to class and MCW/James made some shots against Mich.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

I can't help but think we would have been even a little more dangerous his junior year. I guess that's tough to really know for sure, however.

Yeah, it's tough. We basically would have had 2 POY candidates. We would have been a juggernaut either way. I just think, long term, and the way we were recruiting, we needed to establish the zone identity. It's harsh, but shorter guards that are vocal about wanting to play man aren't really conducive to a zone identity.

I don't think it's coincidence that we've been recruiting bigger guards.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

If Devo and Andy didn't go down and Donte came back for his soph season then it would be all Hail The Great Jonny around here because we'd have been S16 or better his frosh season and FF or better his soph season.

You may very well be right.

 

[jordoo]

Yeah, it's tough. We basically would have had 2 POY candidates. We would have been a juggernaut either way. I just think, long term, and the way we were recruiting, we needed to establish the zone identity. It's harsh, but shorter guards that are vocal about wanting to play man aren't really conducive to a zone identity.

I don't think it's coincidence that we've been recruiting bigger guards.

The one difference with Jonny as a jr and it would have been huge was that we could have absorbed the loss of AO much better because Jonny could always create offense off the bounce since day one and was pretty dynamic at it the second half of his soph season.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

The one difference with Jonny as a jr and it would have been huge was that we could have absorbed the loss of AO much better because Jonny could always create offense off the bounce since day one and was pretty dynamic at it the second half of his soph season.

Big time. Butler would have had no answer (obviously that's assuming everything had played out exactly the same, which it wouldn't have, but you get what I'm saying).

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Since I've been commenting a lot here -

I think placing Flynn among the Syracuse greats is an interesting exercise. Talent wise, he's there. Numbers wise, he's there. He was on campus at kind of a weird time surrounding by players that were kind of unusual for what Boeheim usually does, so where do you put him?

He has a place, but the range on where you can put him is 'Uge.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

1 / No way for us to 'prove' what you "would" do, in ANY context or situation.
2 / Methinks your decision of which to "take" is influenced by hindsight. If you were making this decision at the end of each of their final SU years, and before they entered the NBA, your 'mindset' would be different.

'Instead of taking Marc Gasol (who went 48th), i'd take him over Greg Oden. Prove me wrong.'
Uhhh...

 

[billsin01]

Yeah, it's tough. We basically would have had 2 POY candidates. We would have been a juggernaut either way. I just think, long term, and the way we were recruiting, we needed to establish the zone identity. It's harsh, but shorter guards that are vocal about wanting to play man aren't really conducive to a zone identity.

I don't think it's coincidence that we've been recruiting bigger guards.

No, definitely not a coincidence. Flynn was a tough fit in the zone and I can't really knock him for not loving it -- he was a nightmare 1-on-1 defender when he was focused. But after watching MCW and Triche dominate this year and Rautins up top as well, it's obvious longer players fair very well in this defense.

That said, if I'm drafting a team, even one that plays zone, I'm taking Flynn and I'm ecstatic if the teams picking 1 and 2 take Scoop and Triche and Flynn falls to me at 3 (and that's not a knock on either player, as much as a compliment to Flynn).

 

[jordoo]

For PG's since I've been watching there is basically Sherm and Pearl. After that depending on your criteria your next 4-5 or so could be in almost any order. Flynn has an argument against almost any point guard other than those two and none of the great ones we get MCW, Ennis, Joseph, Briscoe will be around for four years anymore so how does that change the equation going forward. We often tend to remember 4 year guys as they were at the end and forget some of the growing pains that are much more obvious for a guy that was only around one or two years.

 

[RF2044]

I think a lot depends on the context of the OP's question. Does he mean "take Flynn" as in determining who the top raw talent is? Because if that's the criteria, then Flynn wins out of that trio hands down.

If it is "take Flynn" in terms of who was a better system fit, then all of the sudden the other two have compelling arguments over Flynn.

And if the criteria shifts to team chemistry or on-court success of the teams they quarterbacked, then Flynn is probably third out of the three. Can't argue with the recent success of the last few years.

Flynn was a tremendously talented guy, but sometimes the most talented doesn't equate to "better" for the team. That 09-10 team was probably the most balanced offensive team we've ever had, and the first of the truly great zone defensive teams we've had the past few years. Might Flynn have helped that team be even better offensively? Maybe--hard to say. But there's only one basketball for the team to shoot, and maybe having a shoot-first PG who dominated the ball would have disrupted the perfect offensive chemistry / incredible interior passing that team enjoyed, or prevented Andy from stepping up to be the vocal leader that drove the team's blue collar mentality, to say nothing of Flynn being a liability at the top of the zone. There's no doubt in my mind that Flynn was more talented than Scoop / Triche, but that doesn't mean that he would have been better for that 09-10 team--just like how we probably don't go to the NC game in 87 with Pearl at the helm instead of Sherman Douglas, or Lloyd manning the point instead of Z in 96.