Identity vs Due Diligence: Northeast

[LeMoyneCuse]

I really don’t see the point. if you are not getting the better kids from your back yard and from other areas than you won’t be good. That was the case for Cuse the last couple decades.

I'm realizing the argument you're trying to make is "winning consistently has to start close to home."

I'm going to look into the numbers on that because I don't know if it's that simple. (Look at the Schiano Rutgers redux, for example.)

 

[bnoro]

I really don’t see the point. if you are not getting the better kids from your back yard and from other areas than you won’t be good. That was the case for Cuse the last couple decades.

But I think LemoyneCuse's point is if we could recruit 25 4 stars from around the country in each class, we'd win football games. It doesn't matter where they come from in a time where communication renders distance less important.

It's cool that these kids are local though.

 

[money3189]

But I think LemoyneCuse's point is if we could recruit 25 4 stars from around the country in each class, we'd win football games. It doesn't matter where they come from in a time where communication renders distance less important.

It's cool that these kids are local though.

No coach should turn down a national prospect for a local kid with less talent and I would never imply that. You get the best players you can get. Some times the best players are local/regional. It’s just an added bonus/beneift when local talent do well in the program.

I don’t understand why some separate the two. Program success always came with local/regional players along with some outside the region like Florida. It’s not exclusively one or the other.

 

[money3189]

I'm realizing the argument you're trying to make is "winning consistently has to start close to home."

I'm going to look into the numbers on that because I don't know if it's that simple. (Look at the Schiano Rutgers redux, for example.)

I never said it just starts at home. I’m saying all of it matters. There are unique benefits from doing both. You can get the best kids you can find locally while doing the same regionally and nationally.

 

[IthacaMatt]

But I think LemoyneCuse's point is if we could recruit 25 4 stars from around the country in each class, we'd win football games. It doesn't matter where they come from in a time where communication renders distance less important.

It's cool that these kids are local though.

Yes, but you have to invest in building relationships with the schools that have the good kids, if you want to actually get them. We stopped doing that after Pasqualoni. We got back to it with Marrone for his first couple years, but then he got sick of recruiting and haven't really engaged with NY/NJ/PA/MA schools as deeply as we are now for the last 10 years. So, these schools were important to us for maybe 2 of the last 25 years. The results under Fran and his crew speak for themselves so far

 

[LeMoyneCuse]

Yes, but you have to invest in building relationships with the schools that have the good kids, if you want to actually get them. We stopped doing that after Pasqualoni. We got back to it with Marrone for his first couple years, but then he got sick of recruiting and haven't really engaged with NY/NJ/PA/MA schools as deeply as we are now for the last 10 years. So, these schools were important to us for maybe 2 of the last 25 years. The results under Fran and his crew speak for themselves so far

Your argument is "it worked under Pasqualoni, so therefore it will work again"?

So much has changed since then. Demographic shifts, the rise of 7-on-7, exposure factories like IMG, HUDL, internet recruiting databases / ranking sites, and more teams in Cuse's so-called "backyard."

The little I've seen of Cuse rosters from the 90s feature a lot of players from high schools who haven't churned out D1 talent since.

 

[LeMoyneCuse]

I never said it just starts at home. I’m saying all of it matters. There are unique benefits from doing both. You can get the best kids you can find locally while doing the same regionally and nationally.

You're looking at this as a coach who knows players who have moved on to play in college and take a lot of pride in that. I am looking at this strictly as data points.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Your argument is "it worked under Pasqualoni, so therefore it will work again"?

So much has changed since then. Demographic shifts, the rise of 7-on-7, exposure factories like IMG, HUDL, internet recruiting databases / ranking sites, and more teams in Cuse's so-called "backyard."

The little I've seen of Cuse rosters from the 90s feature a lot of players from high schools who haven't churned out D1 talent since.

So, let me ask, since you just don't want to agree with this.

Where are all Fran's recruits coming from?
NJ, PA and surrounding areas, right?

Hasn't he been recruiting those areas for years, building relationships with coaches?

Haven't Penn State and Michigan and Notre Dame and Pitt and teams like that made their bones basically on talent from these areas?

When we were last among the Big Dogs in the East, it was because we got our share of those guys as the backbone of our team.

We weren't having any chance with the top players out of NYC, Long Island, Westchester, Jersey or Philly for a very long time. Those guys are now part of an extremely good recruiting class.

What is the point of your objection? What point are you trying to make?
The evidence is right there in front of you.

 

[SigChiChef]

Why though? People say this like it's carved in stone.

I think it's great that Coach Fran is focusing on the NE - that seems to be something Wildhack is targeting, and Brown is off to one heck of a start.

But "Cuse has to recruit successfully close to home to be successful" in and of itself has always puzzled me. It feels built on:

1) "Because that's what Syracuse did in their last successful period", which ignores how much CFB and recruiting itself has changed
2) The Tiffany programs succeed because of local-to-them talent (look up the number of West Coast kids on Alabama and Georgia's rosters in the last few years)
3) Syracuse has some kind of regional standing (anyone I know from downstate NY / NJ / the Philly area knows as much about Syracuse athletics and Syracuse University as someone who lives in the Midwest)
4) A lack of acknowledgement of shifting air travel providers - ULC carriers, expanding hub access, etc. make it easier to get to Syracuse than ever before from wherever around the country.

Why is because you have to dominate your advantages. If you don't win your built in advantages you start off behind the 8ball. Successful teams have plucked away our best local players (our built in advantages) for a long time. Then we have to dominate other schools built in advantages which is hard to do and we haven't done it ever.
It's really common sense. It is very hard for any team to go into an area that is nowhere near the school and take the best players when there is 25 good teams closer than yours. It's a built in advantage in regards to locality.
Syracuse football has let other teams come into our backyard and take the best players and that helped them become successful and at the same time put us at a huge disadvantage.
You say take the best players from everywhere or anywhere , yea that's what everyone tries to do. Gotta dominate your built in advantages.
Resources are valuable, Gotta value them more than imaginable. Dominating your backyard allows you to allocate strategically, I bet you fall in love at the strip club.

 

[LeMoyneCuse]

So, let me ask, since you just don't want to agree with this.

Where are all Fran's recruits coming from?
NJ, PA and surrounding areas, right?

Hasn't he been recruiting those areas for years, building relationships with coaches?

Haven't Penn State and Michigan and Notre Dame and Pitt and teams like that made their bones basically on talent from these areas?

When we were last among the Big Dogs in the East, it was because we got our share of those guys as the backbone of our team.

We weren't having any chance with the top players out of NYC, Long Island, Westchester, Jersey or Philly for a very long time. Those guys are now part of an extremely good recruiting class.

What is the point of your objection? What point are you trying to make?
The evidence is right there in front of you.

The point of my objection is that I think the "if we recruit better in NY and NJ, we'll win" mindset is outdated at best and misguided at worst. There's lots of evidence to suggest that "if we recruit better in NY and NJ, we'll win" is not correct!

I am genuinely puzzled by the "getting better players from NYC, Long Island, Jersey, and Philly." The three best recruits in the 2024 class are from Georgia, Tennessee, and Georgia. Are recruits from NYC, LI, NJ, and Philly more likely to be successful?

Who cares how Syracuse historically built their teams? Pasqualoni ultimately failed, in part, because he didn't adapt. How is picking up where he left off going to help?

To your point about other teams - they're not using these areas as a backbone now.

- Penn State in 2023 had 25 players from Virginia + Maryland, and 14 from NY and NJ combined. Their PA recruiting footprint is very west of 81 focused.

- Pitt in 2023 had 8 players combined from NJ and NY. Their PA recruiting footprint is also western PA focused.

- Michigan in 2023 had 11 players combined from NJ, NY, Connecticut, Massachusetts, Eastern PA, and Quebec.

- Notre Dame in 2023 had 9 players combined from NJ, NY, and Ontario.

I will not agree wit

 

[Cover1]

The point of my objection is that I think the "if we recruit better in NY and NJ, we'll win" mindset is outdated at best and misguided at worst. There's lots of evidence to suggest that "if we recruit better in NY and NJ, we'll win" is not correct!

I am genuinely puzzled by the "getting better players from NYC, Long Island, Jersey, and Philly." The three best recruits in the 2024 class are from Georgia, Tennessee, and Georgia. Are recruits from NYC, LI, NJ, and Philly more likely to be successful?

Who cares how Syracuse historically built their teams? Pasqualoni ultimately failed, in part, because he didn't adapt. How is picking up where he left off going to help?

To your point about other teams - they're not using these areas as a backbone now.

- Penn State in 2023 had 25 players from Virginia + Maryland, and 14 from NY and NJ combined. Their PA recruiting footprint is very west of 81 focused.

- Pitt in 2023 had 8 players combined from NJ and NY. Their PA recruiting footprint is also western PA focused.

- Michigan in 2023 had 11 players combined from NJ, NY, Connecticut, Massachusetts, Eastern PA, and Quebec.

- Notre Dame in 2023 had 9 players combined from NJ, NY, and Ontario.

I will not agree wit

Michigan and Notre Dame can come into the north east to pluck players and SU shouldn’t try to keep them?

 

[LeMoyneCuse]

Why is because you have to dominate your advantages. If you don't win your built in advantages you start off behind the 8ball. Successful teams have plucked away our best local players (our built in advantages) for a long time. Then we have to dominate other schools built in advantages which is hard to do and we haven't done it ever.
It's really common sense. It is very hard for any team to go into an area that is nowhere near the school and take the best players when there is 25 good teams closer than yours. It's a built in advantage in regards to locality.
Syracuse football has let other teams come into our backyard and take the best players and that helped them become successful and at the same time put us at a huge disadvantage.
You say take the best players from everywhere or anywhere , yea that's what everyone tries to do. Gotta dominate your built in advantages.
Resources are valuable, Gotta value them more than imaginable. Dominating your backyard allows you to allocate strategically, I bet you fall in love at the strip club.

What do you consider "our backyard?"

Upstate NY? There have been 18 P4 commits out of the whole state above Rockland and Westchester between 2019 - 2024. That's like 3 commits a year - not something you can rely on, even if you get them all.

NYC? Rutgers is 40 miles away and Penn State, Maryland, and BC are shorter drives than Syracuse.

New Jersey? See above.

This post has no grounding on reality.

 

[LeMoyneCuse]

Michigan and Notre Dame can come into the north east to pluck players and SU shouldn’t try to keep them?

What does that have to do with anything I said?

 

[Cover1]

What does that have to do with anything I said?

You name big programs that come into the region to get kids but make it seem like it’s not important for us to recruit those same kids.

 

[LeMoyneCuse]

You name big programs that come into the region to get kids but make it seem like it’s not important for us to not recruit those same kids.

Did you stop to think for two seconds what possible reason I would have for not wanting to recruit blue chip players?

 

[Cover1]

Did you stop to think for two seconds what possible reason I would have for not wanting to recruit blue chip players?

Sorry I just think other teams grab kids from the northeast because they think it helps them win. SU should do the same.

 

[LeMoyneCuse]

Sorry I just think other teams grab kids from the northeast because they think it helps them win. SU should do the same.

So, first of all, I was pointing out in my post that Michigan, Notre Dame, and Penn State don't recruit NY and NJ nearly as much as the poster implying.

Second of all, don't put words in my mouth. I've made it very clear what I'm arguing, and if this is your takeaway, that's on you.

 

[IthacaMatt]

The point of my objection is that I think the "if we recruit better in NY and NJ, we'll win" mindset is outdated at best and misguided at worst. There's lots of evidence to suggest that "if we recruit better in NY and NJ, we'll win" is not correct!

I am genuinely puzzled by the "getting better players from NYC, Long Island, Jersey, and Philly." The three best recruits in the 2024 class are from Georgia, Tennessee, and Georgia. Are recruits from NYC, LI, NJ, and Philly more likely to be successful?

Who cares how Syracuse historically built their teams? Pasqualoni ultimately failed, in part, because he didn't adapt. How is picking up where he left off going to help?

To your point about other teams - they're not using these areas as a backbone now.

- Penn State in 2023 had 25 players from Virginia + Maryland, and 14 from NY and NJ combined. Their PA recruiting footprint is very west of 81 focused.

- Pitt in 2023 had 8 players combined from NJ and NY. Their PA recruiting footprint is also western PA focused.

- Michigan in 2023 had 11 players combined from NJ, NY, Connecticut, Massachusetts, Eastern PA, and Quebec.

- Notre Dame in 2023 had 9 players combined from NJ, NY, and Ontario.

I will not agree wit

If more than 50 guys from this particular area were on those 4 teams; teams who have been above us in the pecking order by a lot, and that type of talent is in our backyard, why don't we compete for those guys? You're undermining your own point.

We get some people from these areas now, but not the best ones.

If 50 guys in our area are good enough for Michigan, Penn State, ND and Pitt, they are better than most the guys we've had.

For Michigan and Notre Dame, they are taking this many guys from a secondary or tertiary recruiting areas for them. So they must think this is a fertile area, too.

 

[IthacaMatt]

What do you consider "our backyard?"

Upstate NY? There have been 18 P4 commits out of the whole state above Rockland and Westchester between 2019 - 2024. That's like 3 commits a year - not something you can rely on, even if you get them all.

NYC? Rutgers is 40 miles away and Penn State, Maryland, and BC are shorter drives than Syracuse.

New Jersey? See above.

This post has no grounding on reality.

The recruiting area we are talking about - which you clearly know, since you just looked up where all those guys came from - is NJ, PA, NYC, Philly, DC/Balt/MD/Del - Where Fran and all these coaches are from, where all these new recruits are from. Stop twisting yourself in knots just to be disagreeable. You're getting ridiculous.

 

[Cover1]

So, first of all, I was pointing out in my post that Michigan, Notre Dame, and Penn State don't recruit NY and NJ nearly as much as the poster implying.

Second of all, don't put words in my mouth. I've made it very clear what I'm arguing, and if this is your takeaway, that's on you.

They don’t recruit NY and NJ as much because they are putting time in their own region. Like SU does.

 

[LeMoyneCuse]

If more than 50 guys from this particular area were on those 4 teams; teams who have been above us in the pecking order by a lot, and that type of talent is in our backyard, why don't we compete for those guys? You're undermining your own point.

We get some people from these areas now, but not the best ones.

If 50 guys in our area are good enough for Michigan, Penn State, ND and Pitt, they are better than most the guys we've had.

For Michigan and Notre Dame, they are taking this many guys from a secondary or tertiary recruiting areas for them. So they must think this is a fertile area, too.

Where have I said "we shouldn't be recruiting there?" Please, point to the exact passage.

My whole point is that you seem to think "recruiting better in NYC and NJ will magically make the team better."

It's recruiting better that will improve the team. Full stop.

The rest is just some weird projection / pride thing that I really don't understand.

 

[LeMoyneCuse]

They don’t recruit NY and NJ as much because they are putting time in their own region. Like SU does.

Syracuse's region is Upstate NY, and the HS football in Upstate NY produces few prospects. Syracuse has long been at a disadvantage because of it.

You can delude yourself all you want that Syracuse's "backyard" is New Jersey or Philadelphia or Connecticut, when only wealthy kids from wealthy high schools are going to Syracuse University and people otherwise mostly know Syracuse for its basketball team.

 

[Cover1]

Syracuse's region is Upstate NY, and the HS football in Upstate NY produces few prospects. Syracuse has long been at a disadvantage because of it.

You can delude yourself all you want that Syracuse's "backyard" is New Jersey or Philadelphia or Connecticut, when only wealthy kids from wealthy high schools are going to Syracuse University and people otherwise mostly know Syracuse for its basketball team.

Still doesn’t change the fact that those schools spend more time in their region. The region is the north east. That includes New England Pa tri state. DMV. You are trying to make it a NYS argument when the thread is titled North East. SU has never relied on NYS alone to form their team.

At this point you are just disagreeing with every thing anyone says that don’t match your ideology.

 

[LeMoyneCuse]

Still doesn’t change the fact that those schools spend more time in their region. The region is the north east. That includes New England Pa tri state. DMV. You are trying to make it a NYS argument when the thread is titled North East. SU has never relied on NYS alone to form their team.

At this point you are just disagreeing with every thing anyone says that don’t match your ideology.

What do you mean “at this point?” I started this way.

I’m tired of Syracuse fans using the same talking points over and over and over and over again. The “gotta hammer the NE” trope is tired and doesn’t match reality, but a bunch of loud people who sat in freezing weather at Archbald think it’s true, so it must be true.

And that is why I won’t let it go. Because I believe my point to be valid, and I will keep arguing it until I find the right words for it to get through.

 

[Cover1]

What do you mean “at this point?” I started this way.

I’m tired of Syracuse fans using the same talking points over and over and over and over again. The “gotta hammer the NE” trope is tired and doesn’t match reality, but a bunch of loud people who sat in freezing weather at Archbald think it’s true, so it must be true.

And that is why I won’t let it go. Because I believe my point to be valid, and I will keep arguing it until I find the right words for it to get through.

Every team tries to protect their region and land the best players. You being tired of hearing it from SU fans doesn’t change that.
Every fan base talks about it but SU fans shoudlnt? You believing in your point doesn’t make it valid to others. Especially when you don’t have good enough points to change people’s minds.