if it's good enough for gary patterson, it's good enough for us

[OttoinGrotto]

How many teams have won a NC with the Air Raid? We are about building championships here at SU, not gimmicks.

Well, we're going about it wrong.

 

[Millhouse]

So next question, in all seriousness. Could we run something like it out of our existing playbook? I don't know how the routes that the WR's run in that offense compare to what we are seeing from our guys right now. Have you seen anything that looked like it? I'm assuming that it's more than simply the number of times you throw.

lots of air raid teams don't use a conventional playbook.

 

[Dmcnabbrules]

I don't care what style we have but we need to pick one soon. Last year we at least established the run. This year nothing has worked. The offense have no identity or plan what so ever.

 

[Dmcnabbrules]

But I do like the spread the most.

 

[SoBristol]

The problem with our screens is that the O-line doesn't come out to block on the screens we run, not that they aren't capable. We throw out wide to 1 WR receiving and 1 WR blocking, against 2 DB's and a LB or Safety. If we threw more screens in the right situations where the WR ducked inside to catch the ball on the run, while a FB or TE was blocking along with an O-linemen then we could better analyze whether the screen would work with our personal.

Well, yes, if we tried it we would know -- but you can also look at our C and OGs and see how they play and how well they can run. Macky last season was able to pull and lead block -- not the easiest thing for a C but he could do it.

The O-linemen who are playing, and the recent recruits, have bulk but average to below average foot speed for their positions. Maybe Hickey is an exception?

 

[SoBristol]

I don't care what style we have but we need to pick one soon. Last year we at least established the run. This year nothing has worked. The offense have no identity or plan what so ever.

Also wonder what people mean when they use the buss word "identity". McDonald had a plan -- but it might not have been a good fit for the personnel. Lester has modified the scheme -- but he is trying it with a true frosh QB and some limitations resulting from injuries. Are the receivers getting separation? Are the OL guys opening running lanes? Is it "identity" or lack of the talent needed to execute against decent defenses?

 

[qdawgg]

Well, yes, if we tried it we would know -- but you can also look at our C and OGs and see how they play and how well they can run. Macky last season was able to pull and lead block -- not the easiest thing for a C but he could do it.

The O-linemen who are playing, and the recent recruits, have bulk but average to below average foot speed for their positions. Maybe Hickey is an exception?

Don't disagree. Although our screens would still be more effective than the way we are currently running them.

 

[anomander]

USC? Alabama?

They are changing their ways too. They aren't exactly running the air raid, but both USC and Bama have gone to uptempo offenses this season. Saban has been criticized the last few years for not being able to defend these spread em out, uptempo offenses like Texas A&M, and Auburn. These offense have found a way to negate Bama and LSU's size advantage on their offensive and defensive lines. There is a reason Saban brought in Lane Kiffin as OC. He realized he needed to adapt as well.

And while people can argue that these "gimmick" offenses haven't won anything, we are getting to the point where it will. Oregon made the championship game a couple years ago, and Auburn made it last year. Guys like Kelly, and Malzahn have changed the college game forever.

 

[statsgrad]

They are changing their ways too. They aren't exactly running the air raid, but both USC and Bama have gone to uptempo offenses this season. Saban has been criticized the last few years for not being able to defend these spread em out, uptempo offenses like Texas A&M, and Auburn. These offense have found a way to negate Bama and LSU's size advantage on their offensive and defensive lines. There is a reason Saban brought in Lane Kiffin as OC. He realized he needed to adapt as well.

And while people can argue that these "gimmick" offenses haven't won anything, we are getting to the point where it will. Oregon made the championship game a couple years ago, and Auburn made it last year. Guys like Kelly, and Malzahn have changed the college game forever.

You go uptempo to maximize possessions when you are more talented. It's called law of large numbers. In our case, maximizing tempo right now just increases the probability that we will lose.

 

[Millhouse]

You go uptempo to maximize possessions when you are more talented. It's called law of large numbers. In our case, maximizing tempo right now just increases the probability that we will lose.

Going up tempo makes your offense better. We are not that bad where we need to shorten game.

 

[anomander]

You go uptempo to maximize possessions when you are more talented. It's called law of large numbers. In our case, maximizing tempo right now just increases the probability that we will lose.

Saban specifically went up-tempo because he has seen the past couple of years just how successful those offenses have been against his more talented defense. You can argue going up-tempo negates the better teams size advantage. Bama and LSU have dominated because there are only so many big and talented interior lineman, and they usually had a ton of them. 320lb DT's don't like when a play is being snapped every 30 seconds and can't get off the field.

 

[statsgrad]

Saban specifically went up-tempo because he has seen the past couple of years just how successful those offenses have been against his more talented defense. You can argue going up-tempo negates the better teams size advantage. Bama and LSU have dominated because there are only so many big and talented interior lineman, and they usually had a ton of them. 320lb DT's don't like when a play is being snapped every 30 seconds and can't get off the field.

Is our issue in the ACC size or speed?

 

[TheCusian]

Is our issue in the ACC size or speed?

Vs everyone but FSU and Clemson, we are pretty close. To be on their level we need both, size and speed.

 

[statsgrad]

SU yards per rush - 5.0
FSU yards per rush - 4.6

SU yards per rush - 2.6
Clemson yards per rush - 3.5

I think our big guys have held up fine (in relative terms). The big difference is speed on the outside and at linebacker. Speeding up our offense gives both teams more plays and we are the team more likely to get burned deep.

 

[Louie and Bouie]

Going up tempo makes your offense better. We are not that bad where we need to shorten game.

Which team have you been watching. This season against P5 opponents our offense has been abysmal. Statistically, our QB play has been some of the worst in P5 competition. To suggest our current personnel could execute some Air Raid offense is a fantastical thought imo.

 

[Millhouse]

Which team have you been watching. This season against P5 opponents our offense has been abysmal. Statistically, our QB play has been some of the worst in P5 competition. To suggest our current personnel could execute some Air Raid offense is a fantastical thought imo.

Our offense has been abysmal so of course we need to keep doing that

 

[dollarbill44]

we need to get rid of this presumption that air raid teams need good personnel

these nut cases that came up with it at obscure backwater schools didn't do it because of all their talent.

their qb stunk last year. same guy. all of a sudden he's really good. i don't think it's a coincidence

at some point you need to decide what you want to do and just do it.

to continue with the national title nonsense that dollarbill brought upwhere are all these teams winning national titles by just fitting offenses to their personnel and figuring it out as they go?

I was clearly joking. I thought the line about building championships would have been a dead giveaway.

 

[Millhouse]

I was clearly joking. I thought the line about building championships would have been a dead giveaway.

whoops

 

[statsgrad]

Going up tempo makes your offense better. We are not that bad where we need to shorten game.

We currently have wins over Villanova, Central Michigan, and Wake Forest.

We are 88th in FBS in yards per game and 112th in points per game. We are 105th in time of possession. You really want our offense to "hurry up" and put our defense back on the field?

There is a MUCH higher correlation between time of possession and win/loss than there is number of plays run and win/loss. If you have the ball over half the game it makes it very hard for your opponent to score -- that is much more important than any tiny incremental gain seen from going up-tempo.

Against ACC competition and maryland we have scored 16.17 points per game (this includes Wake). And that also includes 3 defensive touchdowns. Without the defensive touchdowns we have scored 12.66 points per game. So yes, we should absolutely be slowing the game down. If you have issues in the red zone, this only adds to the argument against increasing tempo.

 

[Millhouse]

We currently have wins over Villanova, Central Michigan, and Wake Forest. We are 88th in FBS in yards per game and 112th in points per game. We are 105th in time of possession. You really want our offense to "hurry up" and put our defense back on the field? There is a MUCH higher correlation between time of possession and win/loss than there is number of plays run and win/loss. If you have the ball over half the game it makes it very hard for your opponent to score -- that is much more important than any tiny incremental gain seen from going up-tempo. Against ACC competition and maryland we have scored 16.17 points per game (this includes Wake). And that also includes 3 defensive touchdowns. Without the defensive touchdowns we have scored 12.66 points per game. So yes, we should absolutely be slowing the game down. If you have issues in the red zone, this only adds to the argument against increasing tempo.

If speeding up helps you get first downs then speed up.

Defensive scores hurt time of possession. We better cut that out

I don't care what they do the rest of this year. I'm not suggesting the install a new offense tomorrow morning. Look at the difference a year made for TCUs qb.

Your argument against improving the offense is that the offense is bad. Yeah, I know. The talent isn't that bad.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

We currently have wins over Villanova, Central Michigan, and Wake Forest.

We are 88th in FBS in yards per game and 112th in points per game. We are 105th in time of possession. You really want our offense to "hurry up" and put our defense back on the field?

There is a MUCH higher correlation between time of possession and win/loss than there is number of plays run and win/loss. If you have the ball over half the game it makes it very hard for your opponent to score -- that is much more important than any tiny incremental gain seen from going up-tempo.

Against ACC competition and maryland we have scored 16.17 points per game (this includes Wake). And that also includes 3 defensive touchdowns. Without the defensive touchdowns we have scored 12.66 points per game. So yes, we should absolutely be slowing the game down. If you have issues in the red zone, this only adds to the argument against increasing tempo.

I appreciate that you're doing your best to make a rational argument. We could all go back and forth giving stats about what we should be doing. There's no point though.

This sport has left us behind. Rather than figure that out, so many of us revel in it. Maybe it's just the left over Halloween candy I've been putting away tonight, but I feel ill just thinking about how fun offense in college football is right now for the entire country, and how special we Syracuse fans are and how special our program is that the things that work everywhere else can't work for us and our team.

 

[SWC75]

does the run and stop the run crowd stop to notice that even gary patterson, the all time wet dream defense first coach, has embraced up tempo wide open passing?
------------
"With no bowl game on the horizon, Patterson immediately went about overhauling his offensive coaching staff, beginning with demotions for co-offensive coordinators Jarrett Anderson (now the offensive line coach) and Rusty Burns (now in charge of outside receivers). For their replacements, Patterson looked to a pair of in-state rivals for assistants with roots in the Air Raid: Doug Meacham, who had just spent his first season as the primary play-caller at Houston after eight years on Mike Gundy’s staff at Oklahoma State, and Sonny Cumbie, a Texas Tech assistant who, as the Red Raiders’ starting quarterback in 2004, had engineered a 70-35 blowout over Patterson’s team. In the spring, TCU recruited Johnny Manziel’s former backup at Texas A&M, Matt Joeckel, who had two years under his belt in an Air Raid system and would be eligible to play immediately as a graduate transfer. Patterson, the old defensive hand, was all in on a system that placed little or no value on establishing the run, winning time of possession, or occasionally easing up on the throttle for the sake of the defense."
-------------
http://grantland.com/the-triangle/t...olution-gary-patterson-trevone-boykin-big-12/

We did embrace it and it didn't work because we didn't have the personnel to run it. The issue, as discussed before is: do you run the offesne that best fits the personnel you have and try to win with it, then recruit the guys you want to do what you really want to do or do you start out doing what you really want to do to send the message to players who would like to play in that system that this is the place to come? I'm not sure any of us know the answer to that for sure but I'm sure there are some who are sure they do. I tend toward winning with what you've got then switching to what you want to do when you get the kids who can run it, which is basically what we did in the 80's. I've said many times that the Dome was the ideal place for a high-powered passing offense and I wish we'd been the pioneers for that, rather than a belated follower. But you could hardly have run that with Todd Norley and Mike Siano.

 

[SWC75]

You go uptempo to maximize possessions when you are more talented. It's called law of large numbers. In our case, maximizing tempo right now just increases the probability that we will lose.

I think any strategy works better when you are more talented and becomes problematic when you aren't.

 

[statsgrad]

If speeding up helps you get first downs then speed up.

Defensive scores hurt time of possession. We better cut that out

I don't care what they do the rest of this year. I'm not suggesting the install a new offense tomorrow morning. Look at the difference a year made for TCUs qb.

Your argument against improving the offense is that the offense is bad. Yeah, I know. The talent isn't that bad.

There is zero talent at WR outside of Ishmael. Go back and really watch the games and tell me how often our guys get separation -- real separation -- relative to other teams in the ACC. Even Ishmael is generally making fantastic 1 on 1 grabs with a guy draped all over him. West does the same. How often has Broyld ever broken one deep? Guy still has zero touchdowns. When was the last time Estime, Mr. Speed, got behind a defense? When was the last time Erv even threatened to get past the 30 on a kick return? The talent at WR is is just not there-- there is a reason Ishamel is our #1 as a true freshman. Not one time this season have I ever thought "wow our guy just burned their guy really bad" -- it's always a Houdini catch in traffic. How many of our skill position guys on offense are even going to sniff the NFL?

Having said that I give a heck of a lot of credit to Shafer/Bullough, the defense, and especially the offensive line -- all are playing very, very well given the circumstances.

Our speed/depth at WR/corner is never going to match FSU and Clemson. Once we are back in the top 25 regularly we will get the occasional stud but we will never have a plethora of speed like they do. That is always going to be an issue for us.

TCU only passes the ball 53.5% of the time. Syracuse 47.4% of the time. It's not like that's a world of difference. In fact we have run 557 plays in 8 games, so if we passed as much as TCU that works out to about 4 additional passing plays per game. That's not going to be the difference in us being 3-5 and us being 6-2.

I think we can agree that we'd all like to see more down the field passes. McDonald lined up a bunch of WRs and just tried to run by defenses, it didn't work. Lester has gone back to more pick plays and schemes and suddenly the offense looks at least halfway decent again. I'd love to see an offense that is balanced but takes more play action deep shots. That is the true theme behind these Baylor/TCU offenses. It's not the number of passing playings, it's the number of deep shots. With our current talent we can't take deep shots without a quality run game and play action. With McDonald play action was non-existant. I'm not a huge fan of the pistol for that reason, the play action fake out of it isn't quite as dangerous.

 

[JLine]

we need to get rid of this presumption that air raid teams need good personnel

these nut cases that came up with it at obscure backwater schools didn't do it because of all their talent.

their qb stunk last year. same guy. all of a sudden he's really good. i don't think it's a coincidence

at some point you need to decide what you want to do and just do it.

to continue with the national title nonsense that dollarbill brought upwhere are all these teams winning national titles by just fitting offenses to their personnel and figuring it out as they go?

Boykin has always been pretty damn good, if you've seen him play at all.