In Defense of Starling

[walsh2012]

I have been increasingly frustrated by certain posters who are constantly downplaying JJ Starling in this board. I found myself ranting about it in a recruiting thread, so decided to move it here instead.

JJ Starling was stuck as the only viable offensive threat last season on a team decimated by injuries and lack of talent. Red’s best, sometimes only, offensive play call was Starling Isolation. There was nothing else.

On top of that, Starling was our de facto point guard, playing away from his strengths.

JJ Starling was put in am extremely difficult position last season, and all he did was score 18 points, pull pull down 4 rebounds and dish out 3 assists per game, while maintaining a positive assist to turnover ratio. His scoring wasn’t as efficient as you would like, mostly because he was dribbling into the teeth of the defense every possession with nobody to pass to, and he shot too many threes at the end of the shot clock. But he shot 48% on two point shots on the season, despite being the guy that every team knew they had to stop.

Even Starling’s defense isn’t as bad as his detractors suggest. He has improved each year, and this past season, Starling was a -.4 DBPM… Win Shares had him a positive dWS, also by a hair, this time positive. A hair under average, by those two rate stats that break out defense. All while playing a blistering 35 minutes a game as the team’s only offensive threat. If Starling had gotten a rest, even by not having to bring up the ball, do you think he might have been a little quicker in stopping defensive penetration? Probably. Oh, by the way, starling was second in steals and fourth in blocks on last years endemic defensive squad. The kid busts his butt, playing for his hometown team.

Can we stop complaining about Starling? The dude could have gone anywhere, and probably made more money doing it. Yet he’s here, a McDonald’s All American that is going to finish his career in Syracuse! Somehow half the posters here act like we are saddled with him.

I’m thrilled Starling chose to stick around, and I think he’s going to be great.

Edit: I’m going to cross post this, because I just spent a few minutes researching a rant, and it isn’t even in the right thread. Dang it.

JJ Starling was stuck as the only viable offensive threat last season on a team decimated by injuries and lack of talent. Red’s best, sometimes only, offensive play call was Starling Isolation. There was nothing else.

On top of that, Starling was our de facto point guard, playing away from his strengths.

JJ Starling was put in am extremely difficult position last season, and all he did was score 28 points, pull pull down 4 rebounds and dish out 3 assists per game, while maintaining a positive assist to turnover ratio. His scoring wasn’t as efficient as you would like, mostly because he was dribbling into the teeth of the defense every possession with nobody to pass to, and he shot too many threes at the end of the shot clock. But he shot.480 on two point shots on the season, despite being the guy that every team knew they had to stop.

Even Starling’s defense isn’t as bad as his detractors suggest. He has improved each year, and this past season, Starling was a -.4 DBPM… Win Shares had him a positive dWS, also by a hair, this time positive. A hair under average, by those two rate stats that break out defense. All while playing a blistering 35 minutes a game as the team’s only offensive threat. If Starling had gotten a rest, even by not having to bring up the ball, do you think he might have been a little quicker in stopping defensive penetration? Probably. Oh, by the way, starling was second in steals and fourth in blocks on last years endemic defensive squad. The kid busts his butt, playing for his hometown team.

Can we stop complaining about Starling? The dude could have gone anywhere, and probably made more money doing it. Yet he’s here, a McDonald’s All American that is going to finish his career in Syracuse!

Somehow half the posters here act like we are saddled with him. It makes me a little angry.

JJ Starling College Stats | College Basketball at Sports-Reference.com

JJ Starling - Stats, Game Logs, Splits, and much more

www.sports-reference.com

Seconded - 10/10 very smart guy we got here post

 

[Sherman20]

Choose your own path. Rely on numbers that you don’t likely cannot explain. Measure in hundredths of decimals. Or watch the game and realize that nearly every players has strengths and weaknesses, and there are precious few complete players. Ask yourself, who had to take more shots than were advisable, often at the end of the shot clock because no one else could create space to get the shot off? And did it while injured, and not just the left hand. Then ponder, who had to often guard the opponents’ top backcourt scorer? The 5-8 PG was not. Cuffe and Taylor combined barely played more minutes than JJ (who missed 7 games), so they were not. Context matters. The guy covering the opposing “dude” was JJ.

Is JJ a plus defender? No. A front runner for a slot on the ACC’s defensive first team? Nope. Which guard from our program, however, has fit that profile? Jason Hart. Yes. Thirty years ago in the BE. Maybe Triche? A decade+ ago in another conference. It’s not who we are.

You know who else were sub-par defenders: Devo, Pearl, Lazarus (only played hard the last five minutes of games in his one season of playing time), Edelin, Waiters, DeShawn. There are more. Allen Griffen started to play defense as a senior. Gerry was gritty, but slower (and he was never 6-2). So many here should stop acting like JJ is a unicorn of defensive futility just because you found a nifty new statistic that attempts to measure chaos.

And in the end, Alex Kline runs analytics/numbers too, the caliber of which dwarf yours. And he (and Red) invited JJ back with open arms.

Waiters was a steals machine. So was MCW, Kadary, Triche, Flynn and others. Even Judah and Maliq on mediocre teams. Creating lots of turnovers was always a key part of the Cuse defensive identity. Hopefully we can get back to that, even if we’re not playing much zone.

 

[baggerbob]

Waiters was a steals machine. So was MCW, Kadary, Triche, Flynn and others. Even Judah and Maliq on mediocre teams. Creating lots of turnovers was always a key part of the Cuse defensive identity. Hopefully we can get back to that, even if we’re not playing much zone.

Being realistic the 2 best players on last years team. Freeman and JJ, if they were starters with players like DC as a freshman, Sherm as a sophomore, and Rony as a junior. Freeman and JJ would have been the 4th and 5th option on a very good team.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Being realistic the 2 best players on last years team. Freeman and JJ, if they were starters with players like DC as a freshman, Sherm as a sophomore, and Rony as a junior. Freeman and JJ would have been the 4th and 5th option on a very good team.

I think Freeman will make a big jump this year and easily be our best player. JJ should be no higher than the 3rd option on offense on a good team. Ideally he should be taking 10-12 shots a game instead of the 16 he took last year.

 

[Red2003]

Waiters was a steals machine. So was MCW, Kadary, Triche, Flynn and others. Even Judah and Maliq on mediocre teams. Creating lots of turnovers was always a key part of the Cuse defensive identity. Hopefully we can get back to that, even if we’re not playing much zone.

Valid point but those names you rattled off always played help defense. JJ on his left had Carlos/Moore or Cuffe and on his right had Bell or Taylor. Not exactly a murderers row of back court defense...

 

[Niastri]

Waiters was a steals machine. So was MCW, Kadary, Triche, Flynn and others. Even Judah and Maliq on mediocre teams. Creating lots of turnovers was always a key part of the Cuse defensive identity. Hopefully we can get back to that, even if we’re not playing much zone.

JB built his teams with steals and blocked shots as among his most important characteristics.

Even Craig Forth blocked a couple shots a game… in 23 minutes as a junior. The championship year, he blocked 1.2 in only 17 minutes. We only think of him as an average or worse shotblocker because he was playing with McNeil, who was a great shotblocker, averaging 2.9 in only 19 minutes per game the championship year.

 

[Red2003]

JB built his teams with steals and blocked shots as among his most important characteristics.

Even Craig Forth blocked a couple shots a game… in 23 minutes as a junior. The championship year, he blocked 1.2 in only 17 minutes. We only think of him as an average or worse shotblocker because he was playing with McNeil, who was a great shotblocker, averaging 2.9 in only 19 minutes per game the championship year.

Fouling machines too. I think we forget how much the game changed over the last 20 years. Centers and Forwards can actually make free throws and a high clip now.

Back in the day you could foul a big and maybe they were good for 50% from the line.

 

[billsin01]

JB built his teams with steals and blocked shots as among his most important characteristics.

Even Craig Forth blocked a couple shots a game… in 23 minutes as a junior. The championship year, he blocked 1.2 in only 17 minutes. We only think of him as an average or worse shotblocker because he was playing with McNeil, who was a great shotblocker, averaging 2.9 in only 19 minutes per game the championship year.

I would say Forth was a below-average shot-blocker -- short arms for a guy his size, limited mobility -- but I agree he functioned well in there not only in terms of blocks but he was a big boy who took up a lot of space, communicated well, understood the rotations and did a nice job of walling up to contest even when he wasn't blocking those shots. That's my recollection, anyway.

 

[billsin01]

Valid point but those names you rattled off always played help defense. JJ on his left had Carlos/Moore or Cuffe and on his right had Bell or Taylor. Not exactly a murderers row of back court defense...

Those guys also played in a system that was designed to produce an effective and at times devastating team defense. That is not what we have currently. I'm not sure what we have but in two years I've only seen this team play quality team defense intermittently. Even something as simple as getting back in transition is a disaster. Defending the high ball screen -- pretty much the starting point for almost every oppenent offensive approach -- has been brutal for most of the past two seasons as well (a little better in the back half of year 1). Advanced scouting has been an issue as well. Allowing that kid from UNH to drive left and finish at the rim or in the mid-range all game long in year 1 was an utter embarrassment. Kid rarely shot threes and always went left and we simply weren't ready for it.

Personnel has been an issue, but don't leave out the disappointing scheme as well.

 

[Orangezoo]

Those guys also played in a system that was designed to produce an effective and at times devastating team defense. That is not what we have currently. I'm not sure what we have but in two years I've only seen this team play quality team defense intermittently. Even something as simple as getting back in transition is a disaster. Defending the high ball screen -- pretty much the starting point for almost every oppenent offensive approach -- has been brutal for most of the past two seasons as well (a little better in the back half of year 1). Advanced scouting has been an issue as well. Allowing that kid from UNH to drive left and finish at the rim or in the mid-range all game long in year 1 was an utter embarrassment. Kid rarely shot threes and always went left and we simply weren't ready for it.

Personnel has been an issue, but don't leave out the disappointing scheme as well.

This is maybe the thing that left me the most disappointed when it came to having Griff on staff.
In his time at Dayton he had a great opportunity to really be a sponge in how to run a good defensive system, then you also add a guy like DE and you figure that there is the chops in the room to help build a capable defense.

Instead there was both a lack of ability to put together the personnel and the system/approach to be successful to the effect that it was very hard to tell what you would even call our defensive system outside of just being poor.

 

[CardiacCuse]

This is maybe the thing that left me the most disappointed when it came to having Griff on staff.
In his time at Dayton he had a great opportunity to really be a sponge in how to run a good defensive system, then you also add a guy like DE and you figure that there is the chops in the room to help build a capable defense.

Instead there was both a lack of ability to put together the personnel and the system/approach to be successful to the effect that it was very hard to tell what you would even call our defensive system outside of just being poor.

they just seem to construct the roster around offense and outscoring teams...and defense is just improv

 

[Niastri]

they just seem to construct the roster around offense and outscoring teams...and defense is just improv

I think getting Souare, Kyle and White is a departure from that trend. Most of the guards are average defensively according to the metrics.

 

[Orangezoo]

I think getting Souare, Kyle and White is a departure from that trend. Most of the guards are average defensively according to the metrics.

Yes. With that said the silence in regards to a summer trip, paired with Griff being tied up with TBT is disappointing. A commitment to getting this team out there playing together when we are over due to be able to take a summer trip to me is a no brainer. Not to mention NIL opportunities for Fennell.

I guess we just have to hope they scrimmage the BA team as much as they can…

 

[MadNY3]

You have to root for Starling.

At his best, he is the angel version of Dion Waiters. He doesn’t have the next-level, dominate-at-both-ends ability, but he’s pretty darn good.

Carlos was so bad and ineffective last year and didnt make teammates better. Excited for what JJ does this season.

 

[Cusefan0307]

You have to root for Starling.

At his best, he is the angel version of Dion Waiters. He doesn’t have the next-level, dominate-at-both-ends ability, but he’s pretty darn good.

Carlos was so bad and ineffective last year and didnt make teammates better. Excited for what JJ does this season.

One of the craziest statements I’ve ever read here.

 

[Orangezoo]

You have to root for Starling.

At his best, he is the angel version of Dion Waiters. He doesn’t have the next-level, dominate-at-both-ends ability, but he’s pretty darn good.

Carlos was so bad and ineffective last year and didnt make teammates better. Excited for what JJ does this season.

His game doesn’t really compare to anyone we’ve had here in the past. His speed compares to Jason Hart but nothing else in his game compares outside of that. Hes a 3rd/4th option who needs to be an unselfish vocal leader who gives way for other guys to do their thing and picks his spots. Then most importantly he plays hard and attempts to defend and rebound every possession.

 

[Chip]

I would guess that when you've spent a season being the iso ball #1 option, it can be challenging to get that mentality out of a player. Hopefully we can because I think he can be a great offensive weapon on a team with other weapons and a legit point guard.

Perhaps JJ welcomes the help and his role in a better all around offense, but we'll see.

 

[Ozone!]

IMO, Starling was placed in an untenable position of having to be the thrust of our offense while overcoming injuries. I believe we will witness a more effective player when the scoring expectations are shared among all his teammates!

 

[MikeSU02]

I'm kind of shocked how good people think JJ can actually be.

These are his stats, per year:

FG%: 42.1%, 45.8% (playing with Judah/Maliq), 40.7%
3PT%: 29.9%, 32.4%, 26.8%
PER: 11.8, 12.6, 15.0 (mind you, 15 is an average player roughly)
TS%: 48.2%, 53.3%, 48.7%
BPM: -3.5, 0.1, 1.0

None of those numbers are great. None of them.

I get circumstances vary for what he has had around him, but there is no indication that he will be better than a slightly-above-average player in a *best case* situation. More likely, if he is a featured first or second option on offense, it won't be good for us.

 

[Niastri]

I'm kind of shocked how good people think JJ can actually be.

These are his stats, per year:

FG%: 42.1%, 45.8% (playing with Judah/Maliq), 40.7%
3PT%: 29.9%, 32.4%, 26.8%
PER: 11.8, 12.6, 15.0 (mind you, 15 is an average player roughly)
TS%: 48.2%, 53.3%, 48.7%
BPM: -3.5, 0.1, 1.0

None of those numbers are great. None of them.

I get circumstances vary for what he has had around him, but there is no indication that he will be better than a slightly-above-average player in a *best case* situation. More likely, if he is a featured first or second option on offense, it won't be good for us.

All of Starling’s numbers are dragged down by the fact he has shot way too many bad shots in his career. Specifically from three point range… If he stays in his lane, and only shoots threes that are wide open, he’s going to be a much better, more efficient player.

The fact that Starling’s best year by far is his year playing with Mintz indicates to me that Starling is going to be much better when he has an actual point guard.

Starling has one elite skill, getting dribble penetration, heading to the basket and finishing. He’s merely average or worse at other guard skills.

One of the tests of coaching this upcoming season is how well Red and company keep Starling doing only what he does well, and not doing things he can’t do well.

 

[djcon57]

I'm kind of shocked how good people think JJ can actually be.

These are his stats, per year:

FG%: 42.1%, 45.8% (playing with Judah/Maliq), 40.7%
3PT%: 29.9%, 32.4%, 26.8%
PER: 11.8, 12.6, 15.0 (mind you, 15 is an average player roughly)
TS%: 48.2%, 53.3%, 48.7%
BPM: -3.5, 0.1, 1.0

None of those numbers are great. None of them.

I get circumstances vary for what he has had around him, but there is no indication that he will be better than a slightly-above-average player in a *best case* situation. More likely, if he is a featured first or second option on offense, it won't be good for us.

Yeah...The comments about him being better because he wont be iso ball are confusing.

What else can he do well? You want him to be a spot up shooter? Create for others?

A slashing iso guy is what he does well, he just needs to be more efficient.

Think like a Josh Pace shooting 8 times a game vs 14-16

 

[Orangezoo]

I'm kind of shocked how good people think JJ can actually be.

These are his stats, per year:

FG%: 42.1%, 45.8% (playing with Judah/Maliq), 40.7%
3PT%: 29.9%, 32.4%, 26.8%
PER: 11.8, 12.6, 15.0 (mind you, 15 is an average player roughly)
TS%: 48.2%, 53.3%, 48.7%
BPM: -3.5, 0.1, 1.0

None of those numbers are great. None of them.

I get circumstances vary for what he has had around him, but there is no indication that he will be better than a slightly-above-average player in a *best case* situation. More likely, if he is a featured first or second option on offense, it won't be good for us.

With no disrespect to others here - I think the more optimistic opinions are wishcasting at this point. We all want him to be the 5 star local kid who blows up after hanging tough through disappointment. He just isn’t that player and the signs aren’t there that he will ever be.

It would be awesome to be wrong about that but 3 yrs of similar results say otherwise.

If he could be the kid he seems to be that sets ego
aside for the benefit of the team, and that means he’s a 20 mpg guy because someone else is too good to keep off the floor at the expense of his minutes, that would be an excellent outcome… just as much as him proving us all wrong would be.

 

[CardiacCuse]

I think getting Souare, Kyle and White is a departure from that trend. Most of the guards are average defensively according to the metrics.

not much of a departure...short centers and average defensive guards isnt some sort of recipe for lockdown d

 

[baggerbob]

not much of a departure...short centers and average defensive guards isnt some sort of recipe for lockdown d

You are becoming boring with your continuing comments about the same thing. You are a broken record, everyone heard you the first time.

 

[CardiacCuse]

You are becoming boring with your continuing comments about the same thing. You are a broken record, everyone heard you the first time.

ok.

so you think the defense is all set then?

and im crazy for thinking it might not be?