Is anyone confident we can have a winning team under Red next year?

[djcon57]

Devo hinted at that a couple games ago and diplomatically said fans are clueless as to what's going on and we all need to have patience and give Red time to get his players, etc.

I thought at the time he sounded scripted (someone coached him what to say.)

Interestingly, he mentioned none of that last game and was just highly critical of the team's performance.

Park's little dig that, paraphased, if you expect to cut down the nets every year you are going to be disappointed is the classic strawman bull we hear from Cuse PR and JB in later years.

Park did this before during JB's decline when he asked people how many COMMA'S are included in your donations. And also suggested we shouldn't expect to make the tourney every other year or something like that

Just once I'd like Park or the state run Syracuse media confront FACTS instead of debating the worst case strawman argument possible.

If making the tourney every once in awhile is too much for this program, let us know and we can adjust our expectations and adjust the time and money we spend on the program.

 

[MikeSU02]

Park's little dig that, paraphased, if you expect to cut down the nets every year you are going to be disappointed is the classic strawman bull we hear from Cuse PR and JB in later years.

Park did this before during JB's decline when he asked people how many COMMA'S are included in your donations. And also suggested we shouldn't expect to make the tourney every other year or something like that

Just once I'd like Park or the state run Syracuse media confront FACTS instead of debating the worst case strawman argument possible.

If making the tourney every once in awhile is too much for this program, let us know and we can adjust our expectations and adjust the time and money we spend on the program.

I mean this with all due respect, the fact that they are even trotting out Matt Park to be the guy spewing this crap shows just how sad the state of affairs is.

The BS about Donnie being day to day but not having a timeline to come back this year, if he does at all, is such a hilarious obfuscation of the truth it would be funny if we weren't so terrible and having to deal with running this coaching staff back.

We're asking to make the tournament. We know we aren't Duke or Kansas. But you all were the ones that spewed that nonsense of the quality of who we got, Eddie, Jaquan, how JJ is some star (which he is absolutely not).

 

[cusefan88]

Over 10 Years, I expect this:

Tourney Appearance 7-8 Times
Sweet 16: 3-5 Times
Final Four/NC: 1-3 Contenders

 

[Cusefan0307]

Over 10 Years, I expect this:

Tourney Appearance 7-8 Times
Sweet 16: 3-5 Times
Final Four/NC: 1-3 Contenders

Agree. I don’t think Red is capable of that at all.

 

[RF2044]

I mean this with all due respect, the fact that they are even trotting out Matt Park to be the guy spewing this crap shows just how sad the state of affairs is.

The BS about Donnie being day to day but not having a timeline to come back this year, if he does at all, is such a hilarious obfuscation of the truth it would be funny if we weren't so terrible and having to deal with running this coaching staff back.

We're asking to make the tournament. We know we aren't Duke or Kansas. But you all were the ones that spewed that nonsense of the quality of who we got, Eddie, Jaquan, how JJ is some star (which he is absolutely not).

At this point, I fear that with Freeman, we might be looking at another Chris McCullough situation.

Immensely talented, but injury might prevent him from playing much [not predicting this, just saying that the day-to-day stuff, seemingly at odds with his availability, isn't inspiring confidence that he'll be back].

Certainly hope not, would be a shame.

 

[SU94]

Mike is a nice guy and a good reporter but let's be clear here - he is swapping some credibility for access.

Yep. I am going to call bullc8@p on this ^^^^. And you know it if your name here means anything. To actually believe this is somehow true is at best naive, and at worst blatant slander. Mike deserves a lot better for his service these last 30+ years.

As for the program's trajectory, none of this "let's get back to being Syracuse" is as simple as you all make it sound. Stop being simpletons. Don't let emotion get in the way. It is unbecoming a really smart fanbase.

This all goes well beyond Red, whose greatest sin is that he did not dominate the portal with the equivalent of $5 in his back pocket. Lampkin was a bad decision. Those happen. They happen at Louisville, at UNC, at Pitt and it happened when JAB was here too (and not just in the last 8-9 years).

We have a talent deficiency right now. And the enviable talent is young! And so ... so many here propose getting rid of the guy who brings in talent? That makes zero sense when there is young talent on the roster and more coming in the pipeline.

As for Red's coaching acumen, ... we are not losing because he's getting out flanked. He's a prisoner to the problem that the portal so often renders, namely that the players are independent contractors without an actual connection to each other, the program and its intrinsic expectations. About 50% of this roster are not true Syracuse players. That'll be rectified in the next 1-2 years.

Red has to do way less in the portal. He and Kline get that. It cannot be 4-5 players annually. They'll manage the roster together and improve. They have the best shot at getting this right. Maybe next season. More likely the next. But the script will flip if silly simpletons would stop thrashing about and understand the math involved in properly turning a roster over. It takes time. The portal is a false prophet in college hoops, especially at our level. I wish the realities of the roster were not the case, but it is.

But lay off Mike. We're fortunate to have someone of his stature at the helm, covering the program.

 

[NKR1978]

x.com

x.com

Us and Louisville are the reason why the conference is a joke.

 

[Cuseball]

Yep. I am going to call bullc8@p on this ^^^^. And you know it if your name here means anything. To actually believe this is somehow true is at best naive, and at worst blatant slander. Mike deserves a lot better for his service these last 30+ years.

As for the program's trajectory, none of this "let's get back to being Syracuse" is as simple as you all make it sound. Stop being simpletons. Don't let emotion get in the way. It is unbecoming a really smart fanbase.

This all goes well beyond Red, whose greatest sin is that he did not dominate the portal with the equivalent of $5 in his back pocket. Lampkin was a bad decision. Those happen. They happen at Louisville, at UNC, at Pitt and it happened when JAB was here too (and not just in the last 8-9 years).

We have a talent deficiency right now. And the enviable talent is young! And so ... so many here propose getting rid of the guy who brings in talent? That makes zero sense when there is young talent on the roster and more coming in the pipeline.

As for Red's coaching acumen, ... we are not losing because he's getting out flanked. He's a prisoner to the problem that the portal so often renders, namely that the players are independent contractors without an actual connection to each other, the program and its intrinsic expectations. About 50% of this roster are not true Syracuse players. That'll be rectified in the next 1-2 years.

Red has to do way less in the portal. He and Kline get that. It cannot be 4-5 players annually. They'll manage the roster together and improve. They have the best shot at getting this right. Maybe next season. More likely the next. But the script will flip if silly simpletons would stop thrashing about and understand the math involved in properly turning a roster over. It takes time. The portal is a false prophet in college hoops, especially at our level. I wish the realities of the roster were not the case, but it is.

But lay off Mike. We're fortunate to have someone of his stature at the helm, covering the program.

 

[djcon57]

About 50% of this roster are not true Syracuse players. That'll be rectified in the next 1-2 years.

How can you call people simpletons and make this claim?

Show your work. What does this even mean? How will this claim become possible if we are so limited on funds?

We LITERALLY just saw with Maliq what happened when a player outplays their expected worth. Why would the young players stay? You think Chris Bell stayed for free?

Oh...and this hilarious too. Before the season...

Regarding Lampkin: "It's always the same 10-12 posters, who don't know SH|† about hoops/football/lax and simply cannot stand any level of optimism or progress"

Class of 2020 - C Eddie Lampkin (TX) TRANSFERRING TO SYRACUSE (4/2/24)

What is red’s plan? Nobody seems to know. You mean you're not included in the group texts that Red sends to the coaching staff?

syracusefan.com

Now: "Lampkin was a bad decision"

Nice flip flop.

 

[sufan59]

Yep. I am going to call bullc8@p on this ^^^^. And you know it if your name here means anything. To actually believe this is somehow true is at best naive, and at worst blatant slander. Mike deserves a lot better for his service these last 30+ years.

As for the program's trajectory, none of this "let's get back to being Syracuse" is as simple as you all make it sound. Stop being simpletons. Don't let emotion get in the way. It is unbecoming a really smart fanbase.

This all goes well beyond Red, whose greatest sin is that he did not dominate the portal with the equivalent of $5 in his back pocket. Lampkin was a bad decision. Those happen. They happen at Louisville, at UNC, at Pitt and it happened when JAB was here too (and not just in the last 8-9 years).

We have a talent deficiency right now. And the enviable talent is young! And so ... so many here propose getting rid of the guy who brings in talent? That makes zero sense when there is young talent on the roster and more coming in the pipeline.

As for Red's coaching acumen, ... we are not losing because he's getting out flanked. He's a prisoner to the problem that the portal so often renders, namely that the players are independent contractors without an actual connection to each other, the program and its intrinsic expectations. About 50% of this roster are not true Syracuse players. That'll be rectified in the next 1-2 years.

Red has to do way less in the portal. He and Kline get that. It cannot be 4-5 players annually. They'll manage the roster together and improve. They have the best shot at getting this right. Maybe next season. More likely the next. But the script will flip if silly simpletons would stop thrashing about and understand the math involved in properly turning a roster over. It takes time. The portal is a false prophet in college hoops, especially at our level. I wish the realities of the roster were not the case, but it is.

But lay off Mike. We're fortunate to have someone of his stature at the helm, covering the program.

Look for local media to points these things out and yourself here on the message board. This all sounds great, but we need this vision communicated directly to the fan base from the program. Is the excuse about not communicating this directly is about not wanting to offend all the one year transfers on the current roster, etc? The noise will not go down for the rest of this season if this doesn’t get communicated directly. Or if we start winning games and are competitive in the games we lose. If we’re mainly relying on player retention to develop them over the years, communicate that vision and what the needs are from the fan base to fulfill that vision.

 

[Cuseball]

Agree with leaving Mike alone. He's doing his job and balancing as all should if they want to maintain access.

However, the assumption that Autry is blameless besides NIL is utterly ridiculous. If you did a draft of the ACC coaches I suspect Autry would either be dead last or only be above the interim Miami coach.

Autry's greatest sin is not that he doesn't have NIL. it's that he is completely overmatched and out of his league as the head coach of this program. He does not command respect from his players, he does nothing to out scheme the opponent, he does not get his team to play organized offense and his teams play horrid defense. Additionally, his teams get completely annihilated (and potentially quit) against the good teams they play. Yes, our talent is not good and we have a poorly organized roster (that's on him too as head coach). We are actually losing games because of Autry being outcoached. We also barely won games against teams where we should absolutely annihilate.

I actually find it hard to believe that anyone is still defending what their eyes see. Please tell me one or two things Autry does well besides high school recruiting? I don't suspect there will be anything and that's the biggest indictment of Autry.

 

[Scooch]

I haven’t read through this thread but I saw Mike Waters’ column today and was interested in what he said. I copied and pasted because I wasn’t sure the link would work. Does this answer seem like rainbows and lollipops? I thought he made some good points.

Q: Do you think Syracuse officials are talking about a basketball head coaching change yet?



Jim L.



Mike: I thought long and hard before answering this question because I didn’t want to give oxygen to a conversation that I don’t believe is going to be, or should be, had.



But I decided to answer the question because I’ve received similar questions regarding Syracuse’s struggles this season under second-year head coach Adrian Autry, and I’ve heard the chatter on social media.



I think it would be very short-sighted for Syracuse officials to consider a coaching change.



Autry has already shown that he can coach. I think some fans forget that he won 20 games last year. That was the most regular season wins for Syracuse since 2014.



And it’s not like Autry took over the Syracuse program at the height of success.



Let’s remember that just three years ago, Syracuse went through a losing season, going 16-17 in 2021-22 under former head coach Jim Boeheim.



This is a transition year. The roster was almost completely overhauled after last season.



In my opinion, Syracuse wasn’t ready to approach such an overhaul in the age of the transfer portal.



Autry, to his credit, realized this. Last June, he hired Alex Kline, a Syracuse alum who had spent the previous eight years as a scout in the NBA, as the Orange’s general manager.

Syracuse general manager Alex Kline (second row, wearing glasses) watches a play during the Orange's game against Albany earlier this season. Dennis Nett | dnett@syracuse.cumdennis nett | dnett@syracuse.com


Kline’s duties include preparing for the transfer portal during the season. They also include managing SU’s NIL budget, player retention and evaluating high school recruits in addition to the potential transfers.



Kline came on too late to have any input on this year’s roster.



I think Kline’s GM position is incredibly important because Syracuse does not have the NIL resources available at a lot of other programs in the SEC, Big Ten and even the ACC. So the Syracuse staff, including Autry, Kline and the assistant coaches, have to be smarter in how they approach the transfer portal and recruiting.



Kline is also trying to close that NIL gap, working with alumni groups and potential donors to get more support.



If Syracuse officials moved on from Autry after this year, they would be denying Autry and his staff the opportunity to put together a roster in conjunction with Kline.



I also think things would look a lot better this season if SUguard JJ Starling, the Orange’s leading scorer at 19.8 points per game, had not injured his left hand.



I’m not saying Starling would make Syracuse a great team, but he could’ve made a difference in losses to Notre Dame, Georgetown and Wake Forest. The Orange’s 8-9 record could be 11-6.



Another factor that would favor Autry and his staff is the promise of current Syracuse freshmen Donnie Freeman, Elijah Moore and Petar Majstorovic. Those three players are the first class brought in post-Boeheim.



And next year’s class includes a five-star forward in Sadiq White, a four-star guard in Kiyan Anthony, plus an international prospect in Australian guard Luke Fennell and an under-the-radar recruit in Aaron Womack of Milwaukee.



There’s an old saying among coaches, “It’s the Jimmy’s and the Joe’s; not the X’s and the O’s.’’



Retain the freshmen, bring in the 2025 recruits, target the right players in the portal and things could look a lot different next year for Syracuse.

I think this is a fair response by Waters. However, it reinforces my suspicion that Autry was not fully prepared to be head coach of this program.

How did it take him a full year not just to realize that we needed more NIL resources to compete in this era of college hoops, but to aggressively court those who can rectify that situation?

How did he spend 15 months dealing with the confederacy of dunces on last year's team and not determine much sooner that he needed a GM to manage the portal process and rebuild the roster?

That's day one type of stuff. I'll reiterate that I think Red knows the game incredibly well. I'm just more and more doubtful that he's proactive and strategic enough to lead a title-contending program.

 

[djcon57]

I'll reiterate that I think Red knows the game incredibly well.

Does he? He watched Carlos and thought he was a stud allegedly. I can't rectify that thought process with someone who knows the game well. Then again JB is a HOF'er and obviously knows more about bball than almost anyone on the earth and made some wild player decisions late in his run. Maybe Carlos was just a soft spot for him

 

[DilemaCuse]

Us and Louisville are the reason why the conference is a joke.

To Louisvilles defense they have fixed their clown show

Our Admin is probably in denial about it

 

[NKR1978]

Well, I feel so much better now that I know that the stats nerd wears glasses. Phew!

The 20 win standard is such nonsense when you play 35 games a season. It's gaslighting and just awful. We all love SU, but they've handled this situation about as poorly as they can. Just tell us they care more about friendship and relationships (not a negative thing) and that they're willing to give Red more time to prove he's not the worst P4 coach in the country.

 

[Scooch]

Does he? He watched Carlos and thought he was a stud allegedly. I can't rectify that thought process with someone who knows the game well. Then again JB is a HOF'er and obviously knows more about bball than almost anyone on the earth and made some wild player decisions late in his run. Maybe Carlos was just a soft spot for him

Carlos was John Stockton in practice. Everyone knows that.

Seriously, even experts make mistakes. Red made a half dozen of them this offseason when it came to personnel.

It does crack me up that the vast majority of this board thought our talent was tourney worthy, and now the refrain is that the talent sucks and we couldn't have possibly expected better given our NIL pool. Where was all that talk back in October?

 

[Sdot]

I think the university whether it’s the BOT,Chancellor,ADJW, or any of the media for the school, handles this stuff poorly. I truly believe if they were more open and honest with some of these problems and try too connect with the fanbase, there would be a lot more productive things happening.

Instead they keep people in the dark and you get these crazy assumptions and arguments from fans against each other about what’s going on, and it turns into a free for all.

 

[MikeSU02]

Carlos was John Stockton in practice. Everyone knows that.

Seriously, even experts make mistakes. Red made a half dozen of them this offseason when it came to personnel.

It does crack me up that the vast majority of this board thought our talent was tourney worthy, and now the refrain is that the talent sucks and we couldn't have possibly expected better given our NIL pool. Where was all that talk back in October?

I actually think the people that parroted that line about Carlos after seeing him in person may be even worse.

Honestly.

I saw him on TV and he wasn't good. Then I saw him in person and was scared how bad it was going to get. Then I saw how much data pointed to him being one of the worst starters (at the time) ever in our program's history.

The JC thing will never get a pass from me. Red whether he lied or thought it, either way, it's on his record.

The Eddie thing is a close second. Holy cow.

 

[sweetpea]

If I had to guess, they will bring him back and can a couple assistants and hire a known assistant HC to work with Red like Seth Greenburg or the like, and hope it's enough to get people re-engaged.

If it doesn't work and the product is still sub-bar and attendances and renewals are way down, rock bottom will be in sight, at long last.

I suppose Red would do that if told. I don't see where that has worked really anywhere else. I guess Martelli helped Juwan Howard at Michigan, but he didn't last long either. It would be like Red needed someone to watch over him. Not a good look and one I'm sure he wouldn't want. I'm hoping Kline can uncover some kids who are gamers to go along with whoever stays and the freshmen coming in. Then hope the hell that the staff can do something with them.

 

[capeorange]

Agree. I don’t think Red is capable of that at all.

This may be the greatest understatement of the decade.

 

[SU94]

How can you call people simpletons and make this claim?

Show your work. What does this even mean? How will this claim become possible if we are so limited on funds?

We LITERALLY just saw with Maliq what happened when a player outplays their expected worth. Why would the young players stay? You think Chris Bell stayed for free?

Oh...and this hilarious too. Before the season...

Regarding Lampkin: "It's always the same 10-12 posters, who don't know SH|† about hoops/football/lax and simply cannot stand any level of optimism or progress"

Class of 2020 - C Eddie Lampkin (TX) TRANSFERRING TO SYRACUSE (4/2/24)

What is red’s plan? Nobody seems to know. You mean you're not included in the group texts that Red sends to the coaching staff?

syracusefan.com

Now: "Lampkin was a bad decision"

Nice flip flop.

I made that post in April and it was about our fanbase assuming the worst (aka lack of optimism).
I've now seen Lampkin play and frankly, I don't like his game, nor his demeanor. I had a post in the game thread recently where I called him my least likable SU player (I've been watching since Pearl's freshman year).

Lampkin has some skills and he makes some plays. I don't root against him by any means. Above all, I am glad he is a one-year player in this program. It was a distinct miss for Red. No doubt. But a head coach at any good program should not be fired or held in contempt for one decision or one portal class that was ill conceived. That is what losing franchises do in the NFL or MLB. That is what SU could have done to JAB in the mid 1990s, but did not. The same/similar sentiment could have grounded the football program before it got off the ground under Coach Mac.

Red has a lot of work to do. He now has a right-hand man to lean on. But it takes time. And we are going to lose some games along the way.

I've seen Louisville cited here. They have an entirely new squad and they're on a heater now. But in three short months, they're right back at it. Twelve of the 17 players on their website (honestly, I don't know who their walkons are and don't have the time to investigate) are 5th or 6th year players. One freshman. I'd rather be in Syracuse's shoes. I'd rather be Red than to rebuild a fantasy football type roster every year with scraps from Georgia, BYU/Niagara, USF, Long Beach State. It is wholly unsustainable.

And as you stated, we have to convince the top players to remain. That's where the NIL money should primarily be focused. Retention and perhaps a player of two to bring in to fill a gap. I believe that Red is the type to be able to convince a player to return, to play 2-4 seasons in Syracuse and rebuild the program that unfortunately began to erode in the last 5-7 years or the JAB administration. And I am/was a JAB loyalist.

 

[kingtidge]

And as you stated, we have to convince the top players to remain. That's where the NIL money should primarily be focused. Retention and perhaps a player of two to bring in to fill a gap. I believe that Red is the type to be able to convince a player to return, to play 2-4 seasons in Syracuse and rebuild the program that unfortunately began to erode in the last 5-7 years or the JAB administration. And I am/was a JAB loyalist.

You forgot we have to also convince fans to go the games and renew season tix.

The days of blind faith, happy clapping, and hoping for he best look to be over I am afraid.

And that's not on the fans at all. We've been sliding down this slope for years and people are rightly weary from it.

 

[djcon57]

I made that post in April and it was about our fanbase assuming the worst (aka lack of optimism).
I've now seen Lampkin play and frankly, I don't like his game, nor his demeanor. I had a post in the game thread recently where I called him my least likable SU player (I've been watching since Pearl's freshman year).

Lampkin has some skills and he makes some plays. I don't root against him by any means. Above all, I am glad he is a one-year player in this program. It was a distinct miss for Red. No doubt. But a head coach at any good program should not be fired or held in contempt for one decision or one portal class that was ill conceived. That is what losing franchises do in the NFL or MLB. That is what SU could have done to JAB in the mid 1990s, but did not. The same/similar sentiment could have grounded the football program before it got off the ground under Coach Mac.

Red has a lot of work to do. He now has a right-hand man to lean on. But it takes time. And we are going to lose some games along the way.

I've seen Louisville cited here. They have an entirely new squad and they're on a heater now. But in three short months, they're right back at it. Twelve of the 17 players on their website (honestly, I don't know who their walkons are and don't have the time to investigate) are 5th or 6th year players. One freshman. I'd rather be in Syracuse's shoes. I'd rather be Red than to rebuild a fantasy football type roster every year with scraps from Georgia, BYU/Niagara, USF, Long Beach State. It is wholly unsustainable.

And as you stated, we have to convince the top players to remain. That's where the NIL money should primarily be focused. Retention and perhaps a player of two to bring in to fill a gap. I believe that Red is the type to be able to convince a player to return, to play 2-4 seasons in Syracuse and rebuild the program that unfortunately began to erode in the last 5-7 years or the JAB administration. And I am/was a JAB loyalist.

I agree with some but have to push back on other points. Overall, I get your stance.

1st: You didn't just say some of our fanbase assumed the worst. You said they didnt know "crap". It's possible, just saying, based on the results. Some of us knew what we were talking about when looking at Lampkin's lack of defense, total lack of above the rim play, average rebounding, etc. It wasn't hard to see in the numbers. Carlos was even more obvious to some. Again, what some of you deem as being pessimistic others view as leveling expectations and dealing with reality. The last 5 or so offseasons for this program have been a MESS. Best players leaving, bringing in subpar replacements, over hyping basically every portal guy we've ever got. And every offseason I'm told I'm negative and SOMEHOW my exact concerns show themselves during the season. I'm not saying I'm right all the time, but this beginner level stuff. Basically I am saying this program does NOT deserve the benefit of the doubt until we see results.

2nd: I 100% agree with you that the NIL money should be on retaining players. I said previously looking at a team like Marquette seems like something we could pull off. But the issue under Red...Our players are simply not improving. Specifically looking at guys like Judah and Bell probably somehow got worse or at best stayed the same. Then when we actually have a kid like Maliq who was actually improving, he leaves. How can I feel confident in Red pulling off this plan when he can't keep our most improving player? And before you get into the "well, Duke paid him more". That's part of the game. It's built in. We need to hit the sweet spot of solid recruits that get better and better every year and stick around. If Red DOES stay next year and from what we hear, he is, I think getting JJ to stay is massive for his resume of being able to pull off this plan

 

[baggerbob]

Mike is a nice guy and a good reporter but let's be clear here - he is swapping some credibility for access.

Nothing wrong with it but defenses from Mike and Matt Park don't make a difference in calming the sea of discontent that is forming over the hoop program.

The AD is going to have to walk a fine line here as I'm not sure they fully understand the level of discontent or frankly how savvy our fan base is.

Is there anyone on this team that would have been in the top 6 of the 1987 team?
The answer is no Stevie was your 6th man and he was way better then anyone on this team.

 

[Red2003]

Wish we could combine all the same Autry posts. I feel like I’m just reading the same comments over and over again for weeks now.

Even with a terrible opening to the season I thought there was still some opportunity to improve on the back half of the season and actually beat a decent team here or there.

Maybe crawl up the terrible ACC rankings and feel like we could at least be competitive just occasionally. The ACC is just really bad and that should’ve been possible with just reasonable coaching and guys working.

We still cant even seem to keep a rotation of guys goin week to week. Every time one player shows up to play the other 8 dont.

Seriously who can we rely on every game? It’s not JJ getting punked every 3rd game, not Mr day to day Freeman, not Top Chef Eddie, not garbage points off the bench Bell, not Mr I don’t dive for loose balls Davis. Def not I should be playing in the MAC Carlos.

Maybe Petar and Taylor?

There’s just no hope right now and really hard to find any hope looking to next year either when you see no improvement. At this point the only player I want to see in Orange next year is Petar.