Is BC an inspiration or a cautionary tale?

[Noexcuse]

One good thing for SU fans is we can redirect our "disdain" back to BC where it belongs from a traditional standpoint and away from that pretender in New Jersey.

 

[billsin01]

Do you think we'd get better staying in the Big East with the teams that are in there? Sure we'd probably get a BCS bid one of these years but that BCS bid was starting to get sour again (Cincy loses 2 straight, one which they're crushed, UConn gets crushed in a game that was considered a joke from the get go).

One last point about BC, and I'm not really in the know for this, just something I suspect. I don't get the feeling that they're really all in on trying to create a championship team. Their spending on coaches doesn't give you that impression, and I don't know that they have some great set of facilities. Maybe they do but you don't hear about it. I think they sell that they will be a hard nosed football team at a very good academic institution in a very interesting city.

I get the sense that SU will use the additional revenue wisely on making an all out effort to have a championship calibur football team. Improved infrastructure, paying coaches at market to keep the staff together as best they can, building the indoor facility that recruits will want to see. I think we're positioned for great things, and this league IS the league to be in if you want play football anywhere on the east coast.

Haven't felt this good about SU football in a long time.

This is a good post. You've made me feel better. I just worry about leaving an established entity (BE hoops) for two unknowns (hoops functioning in the ACC and our football program in general). But you make some good points. I'll try to get more optimistic. I still hate the ACC. That's another problem.

 

[elimunelson]

Do you think we'd get better staying in the Big East with the teams that are in there? Sure we'd probably get a BCS bid one of these years but that BCS bid was starting to get sour again (Cincy loses 2 straight, one which they're crushed, UConn gets crushed in a game that was considered a joke from the get go).

One last point about BC, and I'm not really in the know for this, just something I suspect. I don't get the feeling that they're really all in on trying to create a championship team. Their spending on coaches doesn't give you that impression, and I don't know that they have some great set of facilities. Maybe they do but you don't hear about it. I think they sell that they will be a hard nosed football team at a very good academic institution in a very interesting city.

I get the sense that SU will use the additional revenue wisely on making an all out effort to have a championship calibur football team. Improved infrastructure, paying coaches at market to keep the staff together as best they can, building the indoor facility that recruits will want to see. I think we're positioned for great things, and this league IS the league to be in if you want play football anywhere on the east coast.

Haven't felt this good about SU football in a long time.

You are right on. It's a team, and an alumni base, that is happy winning on a consistent basis and there is no pressure to build a team that HAS to win championships. That's why Tom O'Brien was there for over 10 years. He won his 8 games, he got them to bowl games and he kept them out of trouble. The leadership at BC considers that a win.

I have no scientific data and i'm way too lazy to look it up but i have seen their recruiting go up in the past 7 years or so based on the guys they are after and their competition for those names. They have brought in some big time QB recruits and have been able to attract talent from Jersey.

Again, BC is a good comp for Syracuse from the standpoint that we should have no problem getting back to that 8 win plateau if we continue recruiting smartly, keep Marrone in the fold and spend the new ACC cash on upgrading our facilities.

 

[JoeSU]

I thought the conference move was all about money?
This is the first time anyone has brought up the issue of competitiveness.

 

[44PRIDE]

1. BC never had strong local support and what they did have in that respect defininitely took a hit when they lost their traditional rivalries in the ACC move...

This above all else was their biggest problem. To date, the ACC is still a southern league with a Boston College team left out on an island.

 

[HurleyForHeisman]

In ACC, BC hasn't been out of its league

Interesting note in that June article. In talking about BC's efforts to schedule teams in the Northeast, including UMass, it states: "UMass-BC is not Florida State-Miami or even South Carolina-Clemson, but it would be a start, especially since DeFilippo steadfastly refuses to put Connecticut back into the loop."

I continue to believe that the 2003 lawsuit is a real hindrance to UConn's chances to get into the ACC.

 

[elimunelson]

This above all else was their biggest problem. To date, the ACC is still a southern league with a Boston College team left out on an island.

you couldn't be more wrong. the only game the locals care about is ND (and for a little while, Miami). The Syracuse game was fun b/c it would allow thousands of Syracuse fans to plow into the stadium. For the remainder of those northeast games, the crowds have been identical (from what i see as a season ticket holder).

I never hear anyone talking about the good old days of playing Temple, Rutgers and West Virginia. Syracuse gets some nostalgia but that was solved already with our 10 year series.

 

[Scooch]

It's really worth stressing that while SU and BC share a similar institutional profile, the dynamics at play in terms of athletic commitment and fan base size & loyalty are quite different.

 

[Avatusstone28]

This above all else was their biggest problem. To date, the ACC is still a southern league with a Boston College team left out on an island.

Indeed, which is why it seems they have been getting constantly snubbed, when it comes to bowl selection.

Will Syracuse & Pitt end up on that same island?

 

[Moontan]

If memory serves me right they were never higher than 3rd in the BE. Or were they also in that 3 way tie?

It was a 4-way tie.

See the "2004" tab of my Big East Football History page for details.

Coach P's last victory as coach of the Orangemen kept the departing Beagles from going to the Fiesta Bowl. That honor was Pittsburgh's as it was defeated by Urban Meyer's Utes.

(alternatively, one could claim that the prior game's loss to Temple cost Syracuse a date in the Fiesta Bowl with Utah... then again, on paper, an 11-1 Pitt would've looked better than a 9-3 Syracuse)

 

[sufan]

How have they benefited? And don't bore me with academics b/c I couldn't care less and people who think this actually matters in a meaningful way are naive, IMO..

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1) Big mistake: SU is a University: and the association with schools like Pitt, UNC, UVA and on and on is a very big deal.

2) BC in the ACC as an isolated island doesn't compare to the new north-south ACC that includes teams like SU, Pitt, BC, Maryland and the others.

3) If Pitt and RU were invited: SU and UConn would be in a conference with USF, UL, Cinn, WVU, TCU and teams to be determined: hardly a northeast conference with comparable schools.

4) Love to read "fan" reaction if SU turned down the ACC offer and stayed while RU and Pitt went instead.

 

[OrangePA]

Cincy is a decent example, though I still think their facilities are supposed to be terrible so I'm not sure it was as much money as good solid hires of up-and-coming coaches (Dantonio, then Kelly). But yeah, the BE helped them. USF basically wasn't in existence -- simply starting a program at a huge school based in S. Florida was a much larger part of their growth than the alliance with the BE. Hard to believe they couldn't have done every bit as well in C-USA or somewhere.

Although Cincy does not yet have an indoor practice facility - last I heard - the athletic infrastructure is outstanding.

They have built a very impressive Athletic Village.

I recall members of the Athletic Department raving about Cincy's facilities.

There is a reason the Bearcats football program has grown the way it has.

 

[billsin01]

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1) Big mistake: SU is a University: and the association with schools like Pitt, UNC, UVA and on and on is a very big deal.

I think being aligned with BC, Pitt, UNC and UVA is more about their standing as athletics programs (reputation more than production) than it is about their academic reputations. I view academics this way: It's nice when it works out and you can brag about it, but absolutely no one is going to convince me that academic alignments are anywhere close to driving these conference realignments. That's absurd. In that case Army and Navy would be the golden geese.

---------------
3) If Pitt and RU were invited: SU and UConn would be in a conference with USF, UL, Cinn, WVU, TCU and teams to be determined: hardly a northeast conference with comparable schools.

4) Love to read "fan" reaction if SU turned down the ACC offer and stayed while RU and Pitt went instead.

At no point have I said it's a bad move. Just regrettable in that it's too bad no one has the foresight to work with ND and PSU and others to form a truly northeast football conference that could actually drive some revenue while retaining the better part of the basketball conference. I realize this wasn't going to happen today, but it's still a much better scenario for SU than leaving the only identity it has (founding member of the BE) for a conference no one cares about. It had to be done, it will likely be fine, but I think people overreact the same way since SU accepted (in a positive way) as they would have if the cuse was snubbed and/or declined the invite (obviously a world is ending reaction).

 

[Bayside44]

I think being aligned with BC, Pitt, UNC and UVA is more about their standing as athletics programs (reputation more than production) than it is about their academic reputations. I view academics this way: It's nice when it works out and you can brag about it, but absolutely no one is going to convince me that academic alignments are anywhere close to driving these conference realignments. That's absurd. In that case Army and Navy would be the golden geese.

At no point have I said it's a bad move. Just regrettable in that it's too bad no one has the foresight to work with ND and PSU and others to form a truly northeast football conference that could actually drive some revenue while retaining the better part of the basketball conference. I realize this wasn't going to happen today, but it's still a much better scenario for SU than leaving the only identity it has (founding member of the BE) for a conference no one cares about. It had to be done, it will likely be fine, but I think people overreact the same way since SU accepted (in a positive way) as they would have if the cuse was snubbed and/or declined the invite (obviously a world is ending reaction).

If the ACC is a conference no one cares about, and it makes 4x the money the Big East does, what does that say about our current home?

Our identity is more than fine, it's always been about SU, JB, the Carrier Dome, not about much else.

 

[billsin01]

If the ACC is a conference no one cares about, and it makes 4x the money the Big East does, what does that say about our current home?

Our identity is more than fine, it's always been about SU, JB, the Carrier Dome, not about much else.

I should clarify that I realize people in the mid-atlantic care about the ACC to some extent but that nationally -- football-wise at least -- it's not going to hold a candle to the pac 12, big 10 and sec.

But the football side is, apparently, where the TV money comes from and, yes, BE football is not terribly compelling (though the teams aren't half bad, IMO). BUT, if you think the Big East hasn't been a recruiting tool, a link to NYC and a general identity for cuse hoops (also the dome and JB) for the last 30 years, you're crazy. There is absolutely no way of suggesting that the Cuse hasn't reaped significant benefits from belonging to the best hoops conference in the country and playing in NYC several times a year. In fact, you could make the argument that the BET is the only college event all year that actually captures NYC. My buddies love going and only one roots for a BE team religiously (the Hall). They don't talk about college sports the rest of the year (outside the NCAA tourney).

 

[Bayside44]

I think the Carrier Dome and 33K on national TV for a Hall of Fame coach is the best thing we have going. Now tell a kid they get to do that against Duke and UNC, who are the absolute gold standard in the sport.

We haven't had a stud NYC kid in ages. Like Adrian Autry ages. I grew up in NYC, SJU fan as a kid and all that, so it's not like I don't get the passion. But we ain't losing a kid over the BET. Which is a blast and an excuse for guys to drink for days on end, but still...

 

[billsin01]

I think the Carrier Dome and 33K on national TV for a Hall of Fame coach is the best thing we have going. Now tell a kid they get to do that against Duke and UNC, who are the absolute gold standard in the sport.

We haven't had a stud NYC kid in ages. Like Adrian Autry ages. I grew up in NYC, SJU fan as a kid and all that, so it's not like I don't get the passion. But we ain't losing a kid over the BET. Which is a blast and an excuse for guys to drink for days on end, but still...

I think the BET is a huge loss -- certainly in a selfish way since i'm not going to greensboro -- but also from a recruiting and identity standpoint. You don't think being on ESPN with the shots of NYC and buildings lit up in Orange, etc. is attractive to recruits? And it's not just NYC kids that like the idea of playing in the Garden. Ask Melo.

I get your point, and agree we'll be OK. I just think it's hard to simply bank on 33K for Clemson. Or NC State. Or Wake. Or GT. Those crowds came in part because of the tradition and regional bad blood with teams like GTown, UConn, Nova and even to a lesser extent with the Johnnies.

 

[storange]

So I will preface this entire post by saying that I think SU did what it felt it had to do in an attempt to be proactive in what feels like a drastically changing NCAA landscape. What's more, I applaud them for actually being proactive and very professional (i.e. quiet) about it.

That said, I'm still wondering what, exactly we gained with this move? Yes, I could conceivably travel easily to charlottesville (great town) and college park for games and yes, the road trips to charlottesville and UNC would be filled with girls very easy on the eyes. BUT, can anyone name an established program that has really, truly benefited from joining a conference?

IT's an honest question. Take a look at BC:

Good football program when it joined the ACC, now is 15-16 in it's last 31, with 5 wins over non-BCS schools and another over a rebuilding Cuse team last fall. They also needed 5 straight wins (3 by 6 points or less) to get to 7 wins and a bowl last season.

Good hoops program when it joined the ACC (25-5 the year before moving to the ACC, 28-8, sweet 16 in year 1 in the ACC). In the last five years they have not won more than 22 games, falling short of the NCAA tourney in 3 of those seasons.

How about Penn State?
Joined the Big 10 fresh off a 15 year stretch in which the football program had two national titles and six other teams that won 11 games. In 18 years in the Big 10, they had the year in '94 when they probably should have been national champs, but then just 4 teams with two or fewer losses and 10 finishes of 4th or lower in the Big 10. Basketball-wise, let's not even discuss. Are they better off in the Big 10?

How about Temple?
Expelled from the Big East, Temple couldn't beat anyone. Ever. Now, after receiving what we all thought was a death knell for the program, they have won 19 of their last 26 football games with two losses to Penn State by a combined 13 points. They're fine and would probably give our beloved Orange plenty of trouble these days.

I don't know how this whole thing works out, but I'm just not sure the grass is truly greener. I don't think it helps hoops recruiting and think it only marginally helps football recruiting. I think it hurts interest in the hoops team due to the loss long-standing rivalries. I don't think it charges up attendance at the dome. I don't think the TV money will be anywhere near what people think (BC has been receiving it for 8 years and it's done nothing in terms of results).

It's nice to be on high ground, but I'm just not sure this conference is anymore built to last than the one we just left.

BC will never be an inspiration for anything.

 

[Bayside44]

We're still going to play in NYC. The crapshoot with the BET would be if JB was in a bad mood and then we get bounced quick. Never know. The other early season tournaments will still be there, and the ACC will have a tournament in NYC, as Swofford himself discussed. JB also said on Orange All Access that they would play a one and done possibly with USC there, I am sure we will do some of that and we will be encouraged to do some of that.

Those 33K weren't coming for USF, DePaul, SHU, etc, etc either.

 

[Scooch]

BC will never be an inspiration for anything.

Wrong.

Point shaving.

They are an inspiration for point shaving.

 

[storange]

Wrong.

Point shaving.

They are an inspiration for point shaving.

I stand corrected

 

[sufan]

I think being aligned with BC, Pitt, UNC and UVA is more about their standing as athletics programs (reputation more than production) than it is about their academic reputations. I view academics this way: It's nice when it works out and you can brag about it, but absolutely no one is going to convince me that academic alignments are anywhere close to driving these conference realignments. That's absurd. In that case Army and Navy would be the golden geese.

At no point have I said it's a bad move. Just regrettable in that it's too bad no one has the foresight to work with ND and PSU and others to form a truly northeast football conference that could actually drive some revenue while retaining the better part of the basketball conference. I realize this wasn't going to happen today, but it's still a much better scenario for SU than leaving the only identity it has (founding member of the BE) for a conference no one cares about. It had to be done, it will likely be fine, but I think people overreact the same way since SU accepted (in a positive way) as they would have if the cuse was snubbed and/or declined the invite (obviously a world is ending reaction).

-----------------


1) When judging the outcome to SU and the motivations and the benefits: this about way more than the fortunes of the football team.

2) Please stop with the PSU and ND nonsense. The Big 10 is a great fit for PSU; if PSU now wants to join a north-south ACC, the door is currently open.

3) Please feel free to hold your breath for ND, or regret they didn't accommodate your wishes: but their independent football status playing a national schedule is exactly what they want. If they want to join the ACC: the door is currently open.

4) SU is not leaving the only identity it has:
SU has joined a stable, all-sports, true north-south coastal conference with some of the best public and private universities in the country. It will continue to play regional games against UConn, RU in football and Nova, Georgetown, St. Johns in BB, and no doubt ND as well.

5) If there is another round, RU and UConn are likely adds to complete the north-south ACC.

6) The ACC is not a conference "no one cares for": where does that statement come from?
SU has wanted to get into the ACC since 2003.

 

[sufan]

I should clarify that I realize people in the mid-atlantic care about the ACC to some extent but that nationally -- football-wise at least -- it's not going to hold a candle to the pac 12, big 10 and sec.

-------------------------

Are you suggesting that SU was a candidate for the PAC 12, Big 10 or SEC and should have given up its ACC invite?????

SU football is hopefully emerging from years of futility and embarrassment.

You are making it sound like ACC football competition isn't adequate for SU????

 

[longtimefan]

For the original poster - How about Oklahoma and Texas? Leaving the SWC worked out ok for them.

Texas left the SWC. Okie was never in the SWC.

 

[billsin01]

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1) When judging the outcome to SU and the motivations and the benefits: this about way more than the fortunes of the football team.

The primary thing driving this is money -- and it's mostly football money. So while other parts of the university make out, let's not pretend this is about anything other than more money and exposure through football.

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2) Please stop with the PSU and ND nonsense. The Big 10 is a great fit for PSU; if PSU now wants to join a north-south ACC, the door is currently open.

3) Please feel free to hold your breath for ND, or regret they didn't accommodate your wishes: but their independent football status playing a national schedule is exactly what they want. If they want to join the ACC: the door is currently open.

I'm not holding my breath -- in fact I posted that this would not happen now. I only opined that I'm not sure why it isn't possible. I get that it isn't. I've also been the one saying that ND would stay independent for as long as possible. I don't agree, however, that PSU is as entrenched in the Big 10 as you say.

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4) SU is not leaving the only identity it has:
SU has joined a stable, all-sports, true north-south coastal conference with some of the best public and private universities in the country. It will continue to play regional games against UConn, RU in football and Nova, Georgetown, St. Johns in BB, and no doubt ND as well.

5) If there is another round, RU and UConn are likely adds to complete the north-south ACC.

This is not a true north-south coastal conference. If RU and UConn are added then we can talk, but until then, this is a southern conference with a bit of northeast to it (even though Pitt is probably closer to Big 10 in many ways).

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6) The ACC is not a conference "no one cares for": where does that statement come from?
SU has wanted to get into the ACC since 2003.

Outside of Duke/UNC hoops and FSU football, this isn't a conference with the national cache of SEC football or Big 10 football. But yes, it's strong to say no one cares.

Again, I"m completely OK with joining this conference, I simply don't regard it as anything other than a (necessary) money grab/scramble for stable footing. It's fine but not terribly exciting in my book. It's cool if others disagree (and I admit that Cuse/Gtown in the verizon center and the BE tourney are unquestionably in my top 3 sporting events to attend each year -- sox/o's being another.).