Is Boeheim overrated?

[OttoMets]

Sorry for not reading the whole thread, but don't we need to decide how he is rated before we decide if he is overrated?

He's not the best coach in the country. So if someone claims that, they are overrating him. But he's an incredibly successful coach who consistently has good teams, and he also has less NCAA tournament success than I'd expect out a guy who has had his regular season success over the last 30 years.

He's probably one of the 10-15 best college coaches of all time; does that sound right? Maybe too high? He's going to kill it on longevity and lose some ground stuff like final fours and national titles.

Possibly the only response that has kept emotion out of it and instead resorted to reason.

Be careful, them's fighting words around these parts.

 

[orange79]

You can survey any message board of any college team and in any discussion of basketball coaches that are overrated JBs name inevetiable comes up, usually because of his shortcomings in the postseason. IE winning in the sweet sixteen five times in 35 years.

http://broadband.espn.go.com/espn3/auth/mobile/auth/login?app=ios_tablet&version=1.6.3&affiliate=twc

We discussed this recently. Boeheim came in seventh in this survey.

You can believe what you want because it's not coming from Jay Bilas twitter feed or whatever. What I'm saying is that it's out there.

So, let me get this straight. You're basing your argument that JB (HOF, NC, 900 wins, etc.) is over-rated based on the opinions of "any message board of any college team"? Let me pause to let that sink in.

OK. Deep breath.

Really? How many of members of that august body do you think wouldn't trade their coach for JB in a heartbeat?

 

[orangefan13]

Coach K with duke lost last year as a 2 seed to a 15. So overated He had no buisness coaching the mens national team with overated JB.

Coach Izzo two years ago had a MSU team that was preseason number 2. They barely made the tournament with a 10-11 loss MSU team. Oh and he kept loosing in the final four. Way Way overated. Look at all that talent he had.

Coach Matta and his #1 OSU lost to a kentucky team that was a 4 seed. The best team in basketball and they couldn't even make the finla four.

Coach Calhoon Had Drummond, Lamb, Oriahki to name a few. Lots of talent on his team last year and couldn't make any worthy noise. Very overated.

Coach Roy Williams, people call him overated all the time but he has 3 final fours and two titles in the last 10 years.
Yet he had a UNC team that was preseason top 4 three years ago, and he couldn't even get them to the tournament. So overated.

Coach Calipari had John Wall Cousins, 3 other first round draft picks and he coudln't even beat a WVU team missing one of their best players to make the final four. Way overated without his $$$.


Coach Self where to start...09-10 Northern Illinois, VCU Yet he was still in a title game last year and had one 3-4 years ago. Way overated.

There it is all the top coaches with dissapointment in the last 5 years.
You want to talk about Overated Syracuse didn't even have AO or Fab going into march.

Overated underated :blah::blah::blah:
If your going to be a fan of college basketball suprise your going to have dissapointments, meet the expectations, and overexceed them.

 

[Knicks411]

Possibly the only response that has kept emotion out of it and instead resorted to reason.

Be careful, them's fighting words around these parts.

Luckily I skipped most of the first 100 posts. We'll see how it goes from here

 

[br801]

Coach K with duke lost last year as a 2 seed to a 15. So overated He had no buisness coaching the mens national team with overated JB.

Coach Izzo two years ago had a MSU team that was preseason number 2. They barely made the tournament with a 10-11 loss MSU team. Oh and he kept loosing in the final four. Way Way overated. Look at all that talent he had.

Coach Matta and his #1 OSU lost to a kentucky team that was a 4 seed. The best team in basketball and they couldn't even make the finla four.

Coach Calhoon Had Drummond, Lamb, Oriahki to name a few. Lots of talent on his team last year and couldn't make any worthy noise. Very overated.

Coach Roy Williams, people call him overated all the time but he has 3 final fours and two titles in the last 10 years.
Yet he had a UNC team that was preseason top 4 and he couldn't even get them to the tournament. So overated.

Coach Calipari had John Wall Cousins, 3 other first round draft picks and he coudln't even beat a WVU team missing one of their best players to make the final four. Way overated without his $$$.


Coach Self where to start...09-10 Northern Illinois, VCU Yet he was still in a title game last year and had one 3-4 years ago. Way overated.

You want to talk about Overated Syracuse didn't even have AO or Fab going into march.

Overated underated :blah::blah::blah:
If your going to be a fan of college basketball suprise your going to have dissapointments, meet the expectations, and overexceed them.

In other words, very talented teams and very good coaches regularly fail to win national championships in a highly competitive sport that determines its champion in a single elimination tournament. Who could have imagined?

 

[br801]

Sorry for not reading the whole thread, but don't we need to decide how he is rated before we decide if he is overrated?

He's not the best coach in the country. So if someone claims that, they are overrating him. But he's an incredibly successful coach who consistently has good teams, and he also has less NCAA tournament success than I'd expect out a guy who has had his regular season success over the last 30 years.

He's probably one of the 10-15 best college coaches of all time; does that sound right? Maybe too high? He's going to kill it on longevity and lose some ground stuff like final fours and national titles.

Sorry, if you haven't even read most of the thread your opinion carries no weight. I've read most of it and now have a migraine to show for it. No way you're getting off this easy.

 

[OttoMets]

Sorry, if you haven't even read most of the thread your opinion carries no weight. I've read most of it and now have a migraine to show for it. No way you're getting off this easy.

Same. Odd that people are getting so wild about this thread without even pretending to address this question: "How is Boeheim rated?"

 

[br801]

Same. Odd that people are getting so wild about this thread without even pretending to address this question: "How is Boeheim rated?"

I think some people are using this thread to get in shape for the upcoming season. It's hard to just jump in cold in November and make solidly irrational and inflammatory posts. I believe a preseason chat session might be helpful too, just so people can practice their personal attacks on our players and coaches.

 

[OttoMets]

I think some people are using this thread to get in shape for the upcoming season. It's hard to just jump in cold in November and make solidly irrational and inflammatory posts. I believe a preseason chat session might be helpful too, just so people can practice their personal attacks on our players and coaches.

Actually, I'm sympathetic to the original poster - and the only personal attacks I've read are directed toward him. It's so disappointing to see how otherwise intelligent and rational posters go absolutely berserk when this sort of thing comes up. It'd be nice if everyone could discuss the strengths, weaknesses, and perception of the big man without losing our minds; one can value the contributions of our coach and still subject him to critique (or, as was suggested here, critique the critique).

But I can't pretend to know (or care) where Boeheim is rated and thus don't think any of it is worth arguing.

 

[cuseinseattle]

His stock seems to have gone down in recent year and If you look around the Internet a lot of CBB fans seem to think so. His record post NC seems to point in that direction too.

I'm not trying to flame. It's been almost ten years since the national championship and I'd like to hear some thoughts.

Personally I think yes, a little.

In order to make the statement someone is overrated you have to establish what you are rating them as or else it's impossible to have a conversation about. A few years back ESPN did a top 25 on the most overrated athletes of all time and they had Anna Kournikova first which I thought made no sense. She was not overrated in anyway, she was a good looking girl that was a alright professional tennis player. I never heard anyone say Anna was the best player in the world. At which point I would saw they overrated her.

Regarding Boeheim I don't think he's overrated. I'm guessing people see him as a top 5 coach in the nation which I think he is. It's Boeheim, Coach K, Calipari, Williams, Izzo and Self right now in my opinion fighting for 5 spots. You can argue to take out many of the coaches on the list but Boeheim is in the conversation.

I was a history major in college and I hate to do the what if but having said that I am rather confident that had AO not gone down Syracuse would have won the title that year. He was a 5th year senior who was the leader for the bigs in my opinion. Without having their big brother in there Jackson and Joseph looked completely lost. The point of the zone we play is we keep people out of the middle and then we roll up the ends of the zone to contest shots. When you lose your back middle guy who guards the high post and the basket I think it's almost impossible to recover and that's what happened with both AO and Fab. That AO lead team was the best defense I've ever scene. They completely overwelmed people and it was obvious as you watched the games players on the other team would make turnovers out of frustration because they didn't know what to do to get open looks. One game I watched that year I heard an announcer say I don' t they have gotten an unconstested shot this entire half and there was like 2 minutes left or something. Also I would challenge you to take a conference defensive player of the year (Fab Melo) off any team and see if they make the final four. Take Anthony Davis off Kentucky and I wonder how far they get.

 

[orangefan13]

Actually, I'm sympathetic to the original poster - and the only personal attacks I've read are directed toward him. It's so disappointing to see how otherwise intelligent and rational posters go absolutely berserk when this sort of thing comes up. It'd be nice if everyone could discuss the strengths, weaknesses, and perception of the big man without losing our minds; one can value the contributions of our coach and still subject him to critique (or, as was suggested here, critique the critique).

But I can't pretend to know (or care) where Boeheim is rated and thus don't think any of it is worth arguing.

There are no strengths or weaknesses of JB. He just coaches and recruits.
We are a top basketball program. We are not happy to make it just to the sweet 16 or get a 6,7,8 or finishing the season just inside the top 25. Top recruits parents, and other fans drop by these boards sometime. We need to set a good example.
This is a sport that is driven by marketing success systems fans and recruiting. Posts from fans saying JB has underachieved more then other college coaches are not only wrong but can build a harmfull perception to future orange prospects.

Saying he is overated and can't win 3 titles in 15 years like coach K is a opinion and nothing good can come from it. Give him the right players, chemistry, and sure he could. JB doesn't win games the team and chemisty does. How often do we see him yelling at his players and making them cut down on their mistakes?? All season long. He does everything within his power to get the most of his teams, but at the end of the day it is the players that go out there and win. He coaches they play the game.

 

[PoppyHart]

There are no strengths or weaknesses of JB. He just coaches and recruits.
We are a top basketball program. We are not happy to make it just to the sweet 16 or get a 6,7,8 or finishing the season just inside the top 25. Top recruits parents, and other fans drop by these boards sometime. We need to set a good example.
This is a sport that is driven by marketing success systems fans and recruiting. Posts from fans saying JB has underachieved more then other college coaches are not only wrong but can build a harmfull perception to future orange prospects.

Saying he is overated and can't win 3 titles in 15 years like coach K is a opinion and nothing good can come from it. Give him the right players, chemistry, and sure he could. JB doesn't win games the team and chemisty does. How often do we see him yelling at his players and making them cut down on their mistakes?? All season long. He does everything within his power to get the most of his teams, but at the end of the day it is the players that go out there and win. He coaches they play the game.

If JB isn't responsible for wins, then he (and all similarly situated coaches) would be the paradigm of over-rated.

 

[kuethstheman]

In order to make the statement someone is overrated you have to establish what you are rating them as or else it's impossible to have a conversation about. A few years back ESPN did a top 25 on the most overrated athletes of all time and they had Anna Kournikova first which I thought made no sense. She was not overrated in anyway, she was a good looking girl that was a alright professional tennis player. I never heard anyone say Anna was the best player in the world. At which point I would saw they overrated her.

Regarding Boeheim I don't think he's overrated. I'm guessing people see him as a top 5 coach in the nation which I think he is. It's Boeheim, Coach K, Calipari, Williams, Izzo and Self right now in my opinion fighting for 5 spots. You can argue to take out many of the coaches on the list but Boeheim is in the conversation.

I was a history major in college and I hate to do the what if but having said that I am rather confident that had AO not gone down Syracuse would have won the title that year. He was a 5th year senior who was the leader for the bigs in my opinion. Without having their big brother in there Jackson and Joseph looked completely lost. The point of the zone we play is we keep people out of the middle and then we roll up the ends of the zone to contest shots. When you lose your back middle guy who guards the high post and the basket I think it's almost impossible to recover and that's what happened with both AO and Fab. That AO lead team was the best defense I've ever scene. They completely overwelmed people and it was obvious as you watched the games players on the other team would make turnovers out of frustration because they didn't know what to do to get open looks. One game I watched that year I heard an announcer say I don' t they have gotten an unconstested shot this entire half and there was like 2 minutes left or something. Also I would challenge you to take a conference defensive player of the year (Fab Melo) off any team and see if they make the final four. Take Anthony Davis off Kentucky and I wonder how far they get.

Throughout this somewhat pointless discussion I was on the side of him being underrated. I was under the impression that most people didn't see him as a top 10 coach but I do. If there's a consensus that he's in the top 5, I'd have to say he's overrated. I think he's closer to 10 than 1.

 

[br801]

Actually, I'm sympathetic to the original poster - and the only personal attacks I've read are directed toward him. It's so disappointing to see how otherwise intelligent and rational posters go absolutely berserk when this sort of thing comes up. It'd be nice if everyone could discuss the strengths, weaknesses, and perception of the big man without losing our minds; one can value the contributions of our coach and still subject him to critique (or, as was suggested here, critique the critique).

But I can't pretend to know (or care) where Boeheim is rated and thus don't think any of it is worth arguing.

I didn't mean to suggest this thread was filled with personal attacks. Guess I was simply "looking forward" to some of the stuff this board produces once the games start.

I do find it fascinating how various threads often take off in different directions but frequently wind up addressing the same themes in the end. I also think most discussions are generally pretty civil (by message board standards) considering how passionate and opinionated a group of posters we have here.

 

[orangecuse]

His stock seems to have gone down in recent year and If you look around the Internet a lot of CBB fans seem to think so. His record post NC seems to point in that direction too.

I'm not trying to flame. It's been almost ten years since the national championship and I'd like to hear some thoughts.

Personally I think yes, a little.

Hey, are you and that assistant coach gumba's? I share Jimmy's GMac sentiment relative to him being overrated as well! :bang:

 

[OttoMets]

I didn't mean to suggest this thread was filled with personal attacks. Guess I was simply "looking forward" to some of the stuff this board produces once the games start.

I do find it fascinating how various threads often take off in different directions but frequently wind up addressing the same themes in the end. I also think most discussions are generally pretty civil (by message board standards) considering how passionate and opinionated a group of posters we have here.

I gotcha. Yeah, we'll see an interesting tone once a few games (and a couple losses) have passed.

By and large, we keep our cool pretty nicely. After reading some pretty ridiculous stuff on the football board today, I was just telling myself that there's a real person on the other end of that post and there's no reason to respond as aggressively as I'd initially wanted. Glad there are a few hundred on here who behave similarly. (Even if the Boeheim topic is a bit sensitive.)

 

[cuseinseattle]

Throughout this somewhat pointless discussion I was on the side of him being underrated. I was under the impression that most people didn't see him as a top 10 coach but I do. If there's a consensus that he's in the top 5, I'd have to say he's overrated. I think he's closer to 10 than 1.

If he is #10 who are the 9 coaches better than him. I'm guessing you are arguing for Coach K, Williams, Izzo, Calipari, Calhoun, Self. This leaves 3 more coaches better than him. I'm guessing Petino and I can't come up with anyone else. Thad Matta? Billy Donavan?

 

[kuethstheman]

If he is #10 who are the 9 coaches better than him. I'm guessing you are arguing for Coach K, Williams, Izzo, Calipari, Calhoun, Self. This leaves 3 more coaches better than him. I'm guessing Petino and I can't come up with anyone else. Thad Matta? Billy Donavan?

Yes. I'd say Pitino and prolly Donovan. Also, I think you have to consider other successful coaches at lower levels (e.g. Brad Stevens). Although they haven't proven they can coach at the highest level and for the long haul, I think there are other things to consider. I think JB loses points for embarrassing his players and confusing his team's fans with his decision-making. I think his demeanor at press conferences counts for something. I'm sure there are reasons for what he does but I think there are other coaches that would do things differently and maybe better.

I'm not saying I would trade for anyone else. With any coach, you have to accept or reject the whole package and I accept JB and his quirks, no doubt. I'm just saying there are at least five guys that have been more successful and possibly a few others that I respect and would put ahead of him.

 

[br801]

I think JB loses points for embarrassing his players and confusing his team's fans with his decision-making.

If you would, I'd really like for you to elaborate on these statements.

 

[kuethstheman]

If you would, I'd really like for you to elaborate on these statements.

His yanking starters in less than a minute after a predictable mistake embarrasses them and might hinder their growth.

His ripping into certain players for doing some technical thing that is wrong while other players are making obvious, stupid mistakes during the same sequence may destroy the players' confidence in themselves and in their coach.

His unwillingness to try different players and different strategies when things are going badly are defensible but I wonder if flexibility might be better.

I believe that some players do not know what to do or how to play in order to get more playing time and/or to avoid his wrath. I think he and they would be more successful if they knew.

 

[br801]

His yanking starters in less than a minute after a predictable mistake embarrasses them and might hinder their growth.

I assume you are referring to how he handled Fab and Rak in their freshman seasons. Personally I didn't have a problem with this approach because it gave them at least some playing time in all games. Had he opted to bring these guys off the bench, there would have been many nights where they likely would not have gotten into the game at all. Fab's development in year two did not appear to suffer as a result of how he was used as a freshmen. While the jury is still out on Rak, he did play well in several games last season when asked to go for extended minutes.

His ripping into certain players for doing some technical thing that is wrong while other players are making obvious, stupid mistakes during the same sequence may destroy the players' confidence in themselves and in their coach.

I trust that JB knows his players and their personalities better than we as fans do from a distance, and that he chooses to "rip into" some players and not others for legitimate reasons that he feels will better them and the team in the long term.

His unwillingness to try different players and different strategies when things are going badly are defensible but I wonder if flexibility might be better.

I believe that some players do not know what to do or how to play in order to get more playing time and/or to avoid his wrath. I think he and they would be more successful if they knew.

JB's job is to win basketball games and he has been fairly successful at it. You or I or others in the fan base might not always like how he goes about it, but that's really immaterial. You win or you lose, and do not get credit for style points in this sport. As for the players, I'm sure JB and the staff make it very clear to them what they need to do to earn playing time.

 

[kuethstheman]

JB's job is to win basketball games and he has been fairly successful at it. You or I or others in the fan base might not always like how he goes about it, but that's really immaterial. You win or you lose, and do not get credit for style points in this sport. As for the players, I'm sure JB and the staff make it very clear to them what they need to do to earn playing time.

All of this is defensible and except for the quick yanks, I have defended them. However, although JB's job is to win games it's not his only job. He's supposed to educate young men and represent the university. While for all I know all the things I mentioned have been effective, I would feel better about him as a coach if he went about his job a different way. Same goes for Bob Knight. For me, style points matter when comparing coaches.

 

[br801]

All of this is defensible and except for the quick yanks, I have defended them. However, although JB's job is to win games it's not his only job. He's supposed to educate young men and represent the university. While for all I know all the things I mentioned have been effective, I would feel better about him as a coach if he went about his job a different way. Same goes for Bob Knight. For me, style points matter when comparing coaches.

I didn't mean to suggest it's his only job because as you've correctly pointed out, it certainly isn't. Guess I should have said it's his primary job. As far as his demeanor and interactions with players during games, I just don't feel it's an issue. Izzo, K and even cuddly Roy Williams frequently dress down their players during games. Do they also lose points for that? Again, what we see on the sidelines during games is just a small part of the coach/player relationship, so I'm reluctant to draw any conclusions based on that alone.

Regarding JB's demeanor during press conferences, I agree that it often leaves something to be desired. At this point though, I'm not expecting to see much change. If that's his biggest failing, I'm willing to live with it.

 

[AlpharettaCuse]

His yanking starters in less than a minute after a predictable mistake embarrasses them and might hinder their growth.

His ripping into certain players for doing some technical thing that is wrong while other players are making obvious, stupid mistakes during the same sequence may destroy the players' confidence in themselves and in their coach.

His unwillingness to try different players and different strategies when things are going badly are defensible but I wonder if flexibility might be better.

I believe that some players do not know what to do or how to play in order to get more playing time and/or to avoid his wrath. I think he and they would be more successful if they knew.

Gotta disagree with all of this. I don't think JB embarrasses the kids when they make mistakes. He teaches them. He's a player's coach, and kids love to play for him. Read Dion Waiter's comments on JB. Fab Melo had a breakout year as a sophomore. His growth was not hindered at all. Rak appears to be ready to break out as well. Same with MCW. It's not like kids are transferring out of the program left and right, badmouthing JB. Also, JB doesn't throw his kids under the bus, like Izzo, Cal, or Calhoun. Look at kids like Paul Harris and Mookie. They had issues with JB, but both stuck around for a long time, and both seem pretty positive about JB and the program. The program seems like one big happy family, which is part of the reason JB is able to bring in great players. Could he be a little nicer in press conferences? Sure. But he usually comes across very well when he's interviewed on the court after a game. I think overall, he's a pretty well-liked guy by his peers and the folks at ESPN.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

All of this is defensible and except for the quick yanks, I have defended them. However, although JB's job is to win games it's not his only job. He's supposed to educate young men and represent the university. While for all I know all the things I mentioned have been effective, I would feel better about him as a coach if he went about his job a different way. Same goes for Bob Knight. For me, style points matter when comparing coaches.

I think part of this is because you see JB up close, and see the things you would like changed. But I don't know if the others would fare much better if given the same treatment.

For instance, you list Calipari, Calhoun, and Pitino. They all have their problems, when held to your standards. Calipari is slimy and has been at schools with wins vacated - and what about loyalty? Calipari educating young men, come on, that does not seem to be part of his deal. Calhoun has been downright nasty to the press at times and looks like he is going to leave the UConn program while in shambles (as compared to the elite status JB is trying to hand to Hop). Pitino has been busted for having an affair and seems to have driven the one part starter off the squad to make room for some incoming kid. And this is just the stuff I know about from reading this board, imagine if you dug deeper.