Is Daryl 'visionary,' or is he 'stealing football games' from local fans?

[DeepThrowIt]

I think there are a few points that are inarguable about this

1) SU needs to raise it's profile on the football side. I know marketing is about as far from an exact science as it gets, but still, playing a team that seems to reside in the top 5 every year in a massive media market can't hurt these efforts. Right? Is there any possible logic otherwise?

2) Four hours is nothing. I love that people bitch about this drive as if the game was moved from the Cuse to Cali. This is in NYC which, if you are unaware, is generally regarded as a mildly entertaining place to visit. This is a chance to get out of the cuse for a weekend, have fun in NYC and see a game against a top team. Christ, it's not that difficult. There are a massive number of ND fans who travel from Chicago (2 hrs) EVERY SINGLE WEEK and haven't missed a home game in decades. I drove 4.5 hrs for work yesterday and will do it again today. I know it's not next door but the idea that this game isn't exceedingly accessible to local fans is absolutely absurd.

3) Fans aren't being charged for it and are not being robbed of a thing. SU is charging more money for the ticket b/c it's a premium game. That's supply and demand and the school would be stupid to treat it as simply another home game. If you don't want to go, you don't have to. But no one is owed a thing. You may be a die hard who hasn't missed a Dome game in 20 years, but that doesn't change the fact that that place -- which is only 50K by the way -- is usually at about 65% capacity. That the athletic department is looking for a little boost shouldn't be a shock.

And finally, one point that can be argued but I still believe it:

4) The Dome is a terrible venue. I'm sure some will hate me for this thing, but that concrete tomb plays more like a mausoleum than a football stadium most Saturdays. The game-day atmosphere and tailgating is blah, the stadium is blah, the fans are pretty blah, and it's usually an uncomfortable temperature despite being indoors and named for a company specializing in climate control. The hoops team rescues it a bit by being ranked all year and playing the best teams in the country but it's still not great for hoops. I remember Mike Wilbon telling me it was his least favorite venue in the country for hoops. I think he used the phrase "dilapidated airport hangar." Some may feel much less strongly than I do, but I do think people need to realize that the Dome is not exactly an ideal set-up in which to build a championship football team.

I'll play devil's advocate and take the bait:

1. Agree about profile but what happens to the profile if USC wins by three or four touchdowns. In NYC, the media capital of the world. The program is not ready for this type of game. Three years from now, after a few bowl games, I'd be as gung ho about games like these. Getting blown out does much more harm than good. This risk is high this year as USC is going to be a NC contender.

2. Question nobody is asking is: What is better, 40k in the Dome or 40k in MetLife? The prices at MetLife are going to keep casual cuse fans in the area away. But SU doesn't care because the suits DG is trying to impress will be there.

3. Agree with point about people not being owed something but games like USC in the Dome would bring fans back.

4. Maybe this is what DG should be worrying about rather than signage at Yankee Stadium, marquee games at MetLife, and other NYC initiatives. Improve the game day experience and you will win back fans and recruits. Wisconsin, Penn St, and others have all hired people SOLELY responsible for their game day experience. With all the grads SU has in PR, Marketing, and Event planning this shouldn't be hard.

I believe Darryl needs to spend a little bit more time worrying about local initiatives rather than glad handing in NYC. Yes I understand these people are important to SU but the majority of their fan base is still located in upstate NY.

 

[orangenirvana]

LOL. No, I don't think I'll ever be named recruiting coordinator. Don't get me started on pandering to cocky, spoiled 16-year-old kids

I generally agree, I've had some good times at the dome, don't get me wrong. And the fact that they sell beer is outstanding.

I just think it's a huge bummer that you walk in on a beautiful Saturday afternoon in October and it's slighlty stuffy and stale inside. And winning games makes almost any venue passable. I don't expect people to agree with my sentiment, but even if almost all are much higher on the dome than I am, the opportunity to watch a game in a cool facility in NYC hardly seems like a punishment.

Edit: And Wilbon is a dope. I just don't think he had an axe to grind -- just figured it was an interesting opinion from someone who has been to a million facilities.

I understand and tend to agree with the bolded statement above. But that's what Sundays at Ralph Wilson Stadium are for (for me, anyway).

 

[OrangeXtreme]

I understand why its being done but as I have said before the fact that it is a "Home" game and not on your season tickets means its not a "Home" game. It is a neutral site game, or as Ken Pomeroy likes to call it a "semi" home game. The basketball team plays Temple in NYC this year and that is not advertised as a "Home" game (I realize its part of a tournament), its advertised as a neutral site game. I think if Gross had said we are going to play 1 neutral site game a year it would have had a lot less backlash. There is nothing wrong with neutral site games, a high number of teams play them every year, heck Syracuse did it twice in 5 years playing Wisconsin in the Pigskin Classic at the old Meadowlands in 1997 and in 2001 playing Georgia Tech in the same place. The problem that fans are having with it is they keep calling it a home game. IT'S NOT A HOME GAME.

We agreed to a one time deal to play Wisconsin in 1997 at a neutral site. We did NOT agree to a two game deal "away & neutral". Same with Ga Tech. We didn't travel to ATL in 2000 with the return game in 2001 at a neutral site.

If Gross had agreed to a 1 time neutral game with USC in the Meadowlands, nobody would have said a word (just like in 1990).

The problem is SU announced the USC series as a "home and home" back in 2007.

http://www.suathletics.com/news/2007/8/10/fbseries_usc.aspx?path=football

That's why people are pissed. If you play an "away" game, you better get a "home" game in return.

 

[billsin01]

I'll play devil's advocate and take the bait:

1. Agree about profile but what happens to the profile if USC wins by three or four touchdowns ...

2. The prices at MetLife are going to keep casual cuse fans in the area away...

3. Agree with point about people not being owed something but games like USC in the Dome would bring fans back.

4. Maybe this is what DG should be worrying about ...

I believe Darryl needs to spend a little bit more time worrying about local initiatives rather than glad handing in NYC. Yes I understand these people are important to SU but the majority of their fan base is still located in upstate NY.

I'll take the last point first -- you are 100% correct (in my opinion anyway, which may mean little). I am wholeheartedly in agreement that the game day atmosphere is in dire need of overhaul on the Hill. Couldn't agree more. I simply think it's a separate issue from this specific game or even the discussion of a series of games in NYC.

As for point 3 -- Cuse fans always show up for big games in the dome. Can we draw 45K for USC? Sure, but it doesn't mean it's any better for raising $, generating interest, etc. People show up for that game then go about their lives for the next few months. And this isn't a criticism of people, but merely pointing out that, IMO, there is no long-term damage done especially if it is a quick pay day and no long-term endearment gained by bringing in a big opponent to the dome.

As for point 2 -- prices are what they are. Sporting events aren't really cheap entertainment. I suppose it will keep casual fans away but they'll still sell a ton of tix.

And finally on point 1 -- What happens if (when?) cuse loses by 3 or 4 TDs? People will shrug, say "well, cuse still sucks" or "cuse was playing in NYC today?" or "USC is good again." and then continue on with their lives. I think the exposure is more being there and contacting important alums and getting some coverage pregame and in the event of an upset. A blowout loss? It's not exactly going to be headline news.

 

[billsin01]

1) SU needs to raise it's profile on the football side. lol. it appears to be hurting home attendance. not seeing the win/win in this move. unless they want to only play games where alumni live.

2) Four hours is nothing. 2 points on this one. 1) You say 4 hours is nothing and then compare it to a 2hr drive. That's a 50% difference. 2) when you add 8 hours of driving. thats a huge commitment. plus your talking to people who leave games early so they can beat the traffic. know your audience.

3) Fans aren't being charged for it and are not being robbed of a thing. syracuse people love the big games. this is not a one time thing. its the best games forever. let me say that again. locals LOVE the big games. so naturally they are unhappy.


In a world where people are increasingly questioning where they spend their money. This really sends a bad message to the locals. Why should they support your degrees by going to the games when they get dumped on.

Holy Christ. I'll give you a hint -- if you don't have the expendable cash, you shouldn't be spending it on college football games. If you like the games and have the cash, then you should go.

They do a 2-hour drive every single week. That's the point. Yes, it's half the distance, but they do it every single week for every game for decades at a time. And as for the folks who leave early -- what does that have to do with anything? They won't go. That's fine. I still don't get why they are personally offended.

And how is this hurting home attendance? Can you show me something that correlates lagging attendance with this game?

 

[DeepThrowIt]

I'll take the last point first -- you are 100% correct (in my opinion anyway, which may mean little). I am wholeheartedly in agreement that the game day atmosphere is in dire need of overhaul on the Hill. Couldn't agree more. I simply think it's a separate issue from this specific game or even the discussion of a series of games in NYC.

You are probably right, it is a separate issue but I would like to see this be made a priority rather than the aforementioned signage in NYC. I haven't seen any game day improvements in years...

As for point 3 -- Cuse fans always show up for big games in the dome. Can we draw 45K for USC? Sure, but it doesn't mean it's any better for raising $, generating interest, etc. People show up for that game then go about their lives for the next few months. And this isn't a criticism of people, but merely pointing out that, IMO, there is no long-term damage done especially if it is a quick pay day and no long-term endearment gained by bringing in a big opponent to the dome.

The point you are forgetting are the people who go to the dome WANT to be there. I predict Cuse-USC will have 55k at MetLife. I'd be willing to guess that more than half of those people will be there on corporate sponsor tickets. Talk about people who are "showing up for the game then going about their lives." There is most certainly long term damage done by taking the first marquee game of Doug Marrone's tenure out of the Carrier Dome. The 40k locals who would show up in the Dome are pissed. Thats not good.

As for point 2 -- prices are what they are. Sporting events aren't really cheap entertainment. I suppose it will keep casual fans away but they'll still sell a ton of tix.

A ton of tix? I don't know about that but even if they do, they aren't going to real fans. They are going to corporate sponsors and the like.

And finally on point 1 -- What happens if (when?) cuse loses by 3 or 4 TDs? People will shrug, say "well, cuse still sucks" or "cuse was playing in NYC today?" or "USC is good again." and then continue on with their lives. I think the exposure is more being there and contacting important alums and getting some coverage pregame and in the event of an upset. A blowout loss? It's not exactly going to be headline news.

Maybe I am old school but I think the exposure is greater playing games on-campus. What coverage are they getting pregame? GameDay isn't going to MetLife. A blowout loss isn't going to be headline news but its going to make those same fans and alums in the NYC metro area we are trying to engage think even less about the program. It could be embarrassing.

 

[MCuse44]

I'll leave the big guy out of this, but it's not about food or football. It's about where on the list of priorities SU football falls. If your spending thousands of dollars on syracuse football and the team stinks, you have to take vacation to attend games, the school takes you for granted, and they are moving all the good games 4 hours away. How do you not stop and re-assess? Your defense can only bend so much before it breaks.

Holy Christ. I'll give you a hint -- if you don't have the expendable cash, you shouldn't be spending it on college football games. If you like the games and have the cash, then you should go.

They do a 2-hour drive every single week. That's the point. Yes, it's half the distance, but they do it every single week for every game for decades at a time. And as for the folks who leave early -- what does that have to do with anything? They won't go. That's fine. I still don't get why they are personally offended.

And how is this hurting home attendance? Can you show me something that correlates lagging attendance with this game?

 

[billsin01]

Maybe I am old school but I think the exposure is greater playing games on-campus. What coverage are they getting pregame? GameDay isn't going to MetLife. A blowout loss isn't going to be headline news but its going to make those same fans and alums in the NYC metro area we are trying to engage think even less about the program. It could be embarrassing.

I don't mean coverage as much as simply being in the city and having a presence there. I think it's a good thing overall. I'm not saying it's the end-all be-all and Game Day won't be there, but it is an event. It will get some coverage and should give them an in with a couple recruits, etc. Don't get me wrong, it's not some huge boost but I think it will be a cool experience for players and fans who chose to attend.

I agree on corporate sponsors but this is all about the money and, for better or for worse, that's what sports are today. This is business and any good business doesn't want to alienate it's customers but they also need to make efforts to continue to grow and turn a profit. I'd argue that Gross' ability to make money with the FB program will be the single biggest factor in our (potential) return to relevance. "Real fans" are indeed important but they don't pay the bills for new facilities. That is done by boosters, alums, fund-raising, TV deals, etc.

I also don't get why folks don't view this as an opportunity to go to a cool city for a weekend? That's puzzling. I'm sure part of the thought process in the AD's office was that it's still accessible and could be a cool event. I'm surprised so few seem to view it that way.

 

[billsin01]

I'll leave the big guy out of this, but it's not about food or football. It's about where on the list of priorities SU football falls. If your spending thousands of dollars on syracuse football and the team stinks, you have to take vacation to attend games, the school takes you for granted, and they are moving all the good games 4 hours away. How do you not stop and re-assess? Your defense can only bend so much before it breaks.

The school does take you for granted. The idea you think moving a game to NYC is a personal attack on you as a fan is simply off base. And all the good games are 4 hours away? I'm 99% certain this will not be a good game. A lopsided blowout if far more likely. But regardless, as many have pointed out, the move to the ACC virtually guarantees a much better slate of home games for the foreseeable future. I'm not sure why you take the previous issue personally, but as long as you are doing that, isn't the move to the ACC proof that Dr. Gross wants you to see better football teams in the dome? And playing games in neutral locations is not all that rare. ND plays one at a neutral site almost every year -- some of which aren't even in the country. They must hate their awful fans.

 

[kcsu]

He is very good for Syracuse. We needed a major change after Jake and the Doc has delivered. I believe he is doing as good a job as possible given the sad state that Jake left the Ath dept in. Loved Jake but he rode the wave into the ground. The last five years of his tenure was a nightmare as he was just riding out the string and didnt do a darn thing to move any projects forward. If we think that Doug was handed a tough row to hoe check out what Jake left Doc.

 

[tipphill]

1) SU needs to raise it's profile on the football side. lol. it appears to be hurting home attendance. not seeing the win/win in this move. unless they want to only play games where alumni live.

2) Four hours is nothing. 2 points on this one. 1) You say 4 hours is nothing and then compare it to a 2hr drive. That's a 50% difference. 2) when you add 8 hours of driving. thats a huge commitment. plus your talking to people who leave games early so they can beat the traffic. know your audience.

3) Fans aren't being charged for it and are not being robbed of a thing. syracuse people love the big games. this is not a one time thing. its the best games forever. let me say that again. locals LOVE the big games. so naturally they are unhappy.


In a world where people are increasingly questioning where they spend their money. This really sends a bad message to the locals. Why should they support your degrees by going to the games when they get dumped on.

locals love big games---that's why we cannot sell them out.---know your audience--gross does and is going to nyc (how did we get into the acc)---travel time most people in cny do not know what the meaning of "commute"is and need pack a lunch to drive from camillus all the way to dewitt. i do agree something needs to done about game day experience on the hill.

 

[SmilinBob]

Heck if it were up to me I'd schedule 7 games at Syracuse and 1 in NYC/NJ each year. I love what Doc is doing and he got caught with his pants on the ground when TCU and the hillbillies left. VTech schedules games in DC and they have had a bit more (sarcasm for those who don't see it) success than SU in the past 10 years or so. LSU did the same again, just slightly better than SU over the past few years as well.

I've constantly preached that this team needs, absolutely needs 44+ to go to the games and if people constantly need their butts kissed just to cheer for their local team then to be honest you're never going to win them over until you win the games to win them over. 20 bucks to see a game and people complain when there are waiting lists to see some crap and I mean complete crap teams ooc from other schools. Schedule a tough team and lose people aren't happy because you're losing, schedule a crud team and win and people aren't happy because it wasn't a "big" name school.

I've seen this in hoops too, the fans wait for the big dunk instead of getting loud to pump up the team, they have to be moved first and all I ask is why can't the fans be the ones to take the first step? Show up...fill the place up...be loud...support the team for 2 solid years to help Marrone/staff/players and then we put it on them. Then...they can't blame the fans so let's put the ball in their court and stop playing the blame game and support the team. If Doc upgrades the facilities and the fans show up 44+ strong my money is on this program turning it around and being the Syracuse we all know, want and love. I hate losing so don't be part of the problem be part of the solution.

 

[All4SU]

I think SU & DG have done everything within their power to bring the fans back. In Syracuse, you can't even lead a horse to water. The only remaining thing to do is win. In the meantime, SU still needs to make money and open up new revenue streams. A few games spread out down in NYC will help do that. (AND it may also get some downstaters thinking about making a drive up to the Dome now and then.) Short of giving away tickets, the local community has demonstrated that they will be back in the Dome when SU is winning -- even then, they will show up with a degree of reluctance and skepticism.

 

[All4SU]

As for point 3 -- Cuse fans always show up for big games in the dome.

I can't really agree with that. There was a time -- when SU was winning -- that this was true. But in more recent years, even big games rely on the visitors to bring a huge contingent in order to make the game look respectable. One needs to only look back to the PSU game. Big crowd -- 15,000 PSU fans.