Is JAB our Dave Winfield?

[Orangedawg]

Back in the day, George Steinbrenner called Dave Winfield "Mr. May" because he had great numbers early in the season and not so much in the post season, as opposed to Reggie Jackson who he called "Mr. October" because of his clutch performance in the post season.

Our November, December, and January record is one of the best in college basketball but is that what we should playing for? It seems that other coaches are willing to accept some losses earlier in the season in order to let their teams find themselves and develop their own identity. Rather than peaking too early their goal is to peak at the right (tournament) time.

Our coach seems to anoint players based on his judgement and then stubbornly sticks with them no matter what. He builds his players confidence early but since it didn't arise on its own their confidence maxs out and can evaporate at crunch time. He refuses to try different player combinations and give others time to prove themselves once his mind is set. When things aren't going well (like last night) he has no options.

BTW, both Winfield and JAB are hall of famers. This isn't an anti Boeheim screed but an observation from a long time but often frustrated fan.

 

[mountaincuse]

Trevor is our mister may.

I noted in a thread a month ago he was our A-Rod - noted as great at what he does but doesn't get it done when it's truly needed most of the time.

 

[Todd Gack]

Back in the day, George Steinbrenner called Dave Winfield "Mr. May" because he had great numbers early in the season and not so much in the post season, as opposed to Reggie Jackson who he called "Mr. October" because of his clutch performance in the post season.

Our November, December, and January record is one of the best in college basketball but is that what we should playing for? It seems that other coaches are willing to accept some losses earlier in the season in order to let their teams find themselves and develop their own identity. Rather than peaking too early their goal is to peak at the right (tournament) time.

Our coach seems to anoint players based on his judgement and then stubbornly sticks with them no matter what. He builds his players confidence early but since it didn't arise on its own their confidence maxs out and can evaporate at crunch time. He refuses to try different player combinations and give others time to prove themselves once his mind is set. When things aren't going well (like last night) he has no options.

BTW, both Winfield and JAB are hall of famers. This isn't an anti Boeheim screed but an observation from a long time but often frustrated fan.

I don't think people realize how hard it is to win the tournament. Only one team does it. Name 10 current coaches -- just 10; there are over 300 teams in contention every year -- who have more titles to their name than JB.

 

[Orangedawg]

I don't think people realize how hard it is to win the tournament. Only one team does it. Name 10 current coaches -- just 10; there are over 300 teams in contention every year -- who have more titles to their name than JB.

Without question. Very hard. My point is: what is keeping our coach from achieving that top tier status and our program from breaking through to that 'blue blood' level?

 

[richard levy]

I don't think people realize how hard it is to win the tournament. Only one team does it. Name 10 current coaches -- just 10; there are over 300 teams in contention every year -- who have more titles to their name than JB.

you're talking active of course. On the other hand name ten D1 coaches still coaching older than JB. I do agree, it is hard to win the dance, it takes luck and skill, kid makes a 3pt shot that hits the backboard.. o wait, that happened last night

 

[jncuse]

Without question. Very hard. My point is: what is keeping our coach from achieving that top tier status and our program from breaking through to that 'blue blood' level?

Because it's hard?

When was the last time a program broke into blue blood status.

 

[KaiserUEO]

orangedawg is our jim walewander

 

[Cuseman78]

Seeing that we're coming off an Elite 8/Final Four the last 2 years, probably not.

 

[Todd Gack]

On the other hand name ten D1 coaches still coaching older than JB.

Is it because they still don't want to coach -- or because they're not good enough to keep their job? Gary Williams didn't leave Maryland for the Peace Corps. There are plenty of good coaches who've captured "one moment in time" -- there's only a handful whose hands stretch decades ... and JB is one of them.

 

[doc05]

It's a fair point. The general consensus around the nation is that Syracuse underachieves come tourney time. One FF a decade (and only 1 NC in its history) for a team that consistently wins 20+ games a year in a major conference can be seen as underachieving when it matters the most. I know in this space it's not a popular opinion. From a national perspective, it is what it is.

 

[Todd Gack]

Without question. Very hard. My point is: what is keeping our coach from achieving that top tier status and our program from breaking through to that 'blue blood' level?

Puh-lease -- you mean like being the 5th all-time winningest program? Only two teams have won multiple championships since our 2003 one. UNC and UConn. Is UConn a "blue blood"? And do you think our history -- as good as it is; Go Orange! -- matches that of Kentucky, Kansas, UNC, and Duke?! We're in the next 5! For all his faults -- and I'm not saying there aren't any -- JB created a program you care enough to bitch about on the Internet. Call him "Mr. May" for all you want -- but look in the mirror as there's also a "Mr. Irrelevant."

 

[Todd Gack]

It's a fair point. The general consensus around the nation is that Syracuse underachieves come tourney time. One FF a decade (and only 1 NC in its history) for a team that consistently wins 20+ games a year in a major conference can be seen as underachieving when it matters the most. I know in this space it's not a popular opinion. From a national perspective, it is what it is.

The national perspective is also that the Carrier Dome is in Manhattan -- America is stupid.

 

[Ozcuse]

I don't think people realize how hard it is to win the tournament. Only one team does it. Name 10 current coaches -- just 10; there are over 300 teams in contention every year -- who have more titles to their name than JB.

There are only 4:

Rick Pitino - 2
Billy Donovan - 2
Mike Krzyzewski - 4
Roy Williams - 2
(Calhoun was on this list till 2 years ago)

6 others have the same amount:

Bill Self - 2008
John Calipari - 2012
Tom Izzo - 2000
Steve Fisher - 1989
Larry Brown - 1988
Tubby Smith - 1998

 

[Ozcuse]

Puh-lease -- you mean like being the 5th all-time winningest program? Only two teams have won multiple championships since our 2003 one. UNC and UConn. Is UConn a "blue blood"? And do you think our history -- as good as it is; Go Orange! -- matches Kentucky, Kansas, UNC, and Duke?! We're in the next 5! For all his faults -- and I'm not saying there aren't any -- JB created a program you care enough to bitch about on the Internet. Call him "Mr. May" for all you want -- but look in the mirror as there's also a "Mr. Irrelevant."

You forgot Florida (06 & 07) who was the first to win back to back since Duke in 91 & 92.

 

[richard levy]

Time for SWC to reprint his multi page Good Boeheim/Bad Boeheim

 

[Todd Gack]

There are only 4:

Rick Pitino - 2
Billy Donovan - 2
Mike Krzyzewski - 4
Roy Williams - 2
(Calhoun was on this list till 2 years ago)

6 others have the same amount:

Bill Self - 2008
John Calipari - 2012
Tom Izzo - 2000
Steve Fisher - 1989
Larry Brown - 1988
Tubby Smith - 1998

Ha, I'd originally written "5," but thought I'd give myself some leeway -- none but the last three are leaving their jobs for Syracuse, and we don't want those three who would.

 

[Todd Gack]

You forgot Florida (06 & 07) who was the first to win back to back since Duke in 91 & 92.

You're right -- Boeheim should be canned.

 

[Orangedawg]

orangedawg is our jim walewander

I had to Google the reference. Lol!

 

[doc05]

The national perspective is also that the Carrier Dome is in Manhattan -- America is stupid.

There are only 4:

Rick Pitino - 2
Billy Donovan - 2
Mike Krzyzewski - 4
Roy Williams - 2
(Calhoun was on this list till 2 years ago)

6 others have the same amount:

Bill Self - 2008
John Calipari - 2012
Tom Izzo - 2000
Steve Fisher - 1989
Larry Brown - 1988
Tubby Smith - 1998

The other thing to consider when comparing these coaches is the length of time JB has been at the same school - coaching going on 40 years, with continued success, but a pattern of "underachieving" come tourney. Some will say that is irrelevant, but it makes the "underachiever" label for the program stick...with JB being the constant in the equation.

 

[Orangedawg]

You're right -- Boeheim should be canned.

Is there anything wrong with wanting to be a NY Yankee type fan rather than an Atlanta Braves type fan?

 

[NKR1978]

The other thing to consider when comparing these coaches is the length of time JB has been at the same school - coaching going on 40 years, with continued success, but a pattern of "underachieving" come tourney. Some will say that is irrelevant, but it makes the "underachiever" label for the program stick...with JB being the constant in the equation.

Every program except Kentucky, Louisville, Duke, UNC, UConn, Kansas, Florida, UCLA and maybe Arizona would kill for our "underachievement" over the last 20+ years.

 

[doc05]

Every program except Kentucky, Louisville, Duke, UNC, UConn, Kansas, Florida, UCLA and maybe Arizona would kill for our "underachievement" over the last 20+ years.

Maybe so. But that's not the point. The perception is out there.

 

[NKR1978]

Maybe so. But that's not the point. The perception is out there.

Who cares? I don't have an inferiority complex about college basketball and definitely don't care what a uconn fan thinks. I've seen fans of lower level programs whine that we get calls because we're a blueblood. There are a lot of different perceptions.

 

[Todd Gack]

Is there anything wrong with wanting to be a NY Yankee type fan rather than an Atlanta Braves type fan?

Is there anything wrong with wanting to eat cake but have it not go to our hips? (Am I right, ladies?!)

Born and raised in -- and a frequent returner to (I currently live in DC) -- CNY, I howl at the area's collective idea that the grass is always greener elsewhere and that they deserve Syracuse victories. 100% of cities larger than Syracuse would love their local college to be as successful in basketball. Be critical all you want -- but also don't realize how lucky you are to be Orange.

 

[Todd Gack]

The other thing to consider when comparing these coaches is the length of time JB has been at the same school - coaching going on 40 years, with continued success, but a pattern of "underachieving" come tourney. Some will say that is irrelevant, but it makes the "underachiever" label for the program stick...with JB being the constant in the equation.

Maybe it's because I'm approaching my 36th birthday -- and am raging against the dying of the light -- but I'd like to think I'm above caring how others think I should feel. If you're embarrassed by the program, I can help you find the door.